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You both are wrong in your understanding of this section of verses and it makes me sad that you only see what you have been trained to believe - the teachings of some men in the past, who among other things wants you to think more highly of a bloodline of false doctrines, than to know the scriptures and what they really teach.

 

There is only one time there is a NH & NE. And that is in Eternity.

 

Thank you Alan for putting yourself in with this teaching, it shows your 'view' for what it is, training by men in the past who really want us to worship a 'people' who claim God as their own, and want Christianity to treat them as such - gods ; a people that do not have God as their Father and do lie to cover the true teachings of the word of God as they have always been taught.

 

Enough said. (and notice that I didn't use ANY bold or colored letters?)

And where oh where do you get this?

Guess we should stock up on wool blankets, eh?

GP,

Isaiah 60:1-2, 19-20

Jesus will come to Israel who sits in darkness while the rest of the world is scorched by the sun. The kingdom begins in verse 3, notice that the sun and moon do not give light to Israel but they don't withdraw or set. The kingdom of Antichrist will stay dark as judgment from God. The New Jerusalem will be over Israel in the shadow of the moon so the light of Jesus glory will shine down on Israel. The rest of the people will come to Israel to look up and see the light of Jesus. Out side the shadow of the moon the sun's light will hurt the peoples eyes.

 

Edited by Eric Stahl

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GP,

Isaiah 1-2, 19-20

Jesus will come to Israel who sits in darkness while the rest of the world is scorched by the sun. The kingdom begins in verse 3, notice that the sun and moon do not give light to Israel but they don't withdraw or set. The kingdom of Antichrist will stay dark as judgment from God. The New Jerusalem will be over Israel in the shadow of the moon so the light of Jesus glory will shine down on Israel. The rest of the people will come to Israel to look up and see the light of Jesus. Out side the shadow of the moon the sun's light will hurt the peoples eyes.

 

The Pope is Antichrist why look further?

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The Pope is Antichrist why look further?

The Pope will probably be head of the apostate Christian church called Mystery Babylon. The head of Mystery Babylon will tell the kings of the earth what to do till God puts it in the kings hearts to give their power to the Antichrist see Revelation 17:12-18 .

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The Pope will probably be head of the apostate Christian church called Mystery Babylon. The head of Mystery Babylon will tell the kings of the earth what to do till God puts it in the kings hearts to give their power to the Antichrist see Revelation 17:12-18 .

Have yhou ever read history? The Pope has done all that.

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Eric,

Thank you for your explantation  that the Roman Catholic Church will increase dramatically once the true Christians are taken out of this earth in the coming of the Lord Jesus as depicted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 

Once the Lord Jesus takes the true Christians off the face of the earth, and the Holy Spirit is gone also, then the false Christians, and the false religions of the world, will swarm willingly into the Roman Catholic Church. The resultant swarm of religious people joining the 'MOTHER OF HARLOTS' will increase the political power of the Pope worldwide.

"And now ye know what withholdeth that the might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." 2 Thessalonians 2:6 & 7 The Holy Spirit, in the heart of the true Christians, is the only restraining power in this world to prevent the anti-Christ, and the Roman Catholic Church, from taking world wide power. Once the Holy Spirit is removed in the Rapture of the church the false christians will flock into the arms of the HARLOT CHURCH.

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Eric,

Thank you for your explantation  that the Roman Catholic Church will increase dramatically once the true Christians are taken out of this earth in the coming of the Lord Jesus as depicted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 

Once the Lord Jesus takes the true Christians off the face of the earth, and the Holy Spirit is gone also, then the false Christians, and the false religions of the world, will swarm willingly into the Roman Catholic Church. The resultant swarm of religious people joining the 'MOTHER OF HARLOTS' will increase the political power of the Pope worldwide.

"And now ye know what withholdeth that the might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." 2 Thessalonians 2:6 & 7 The Holy Spirit, in the heart of the true Christians, is the only restraining power in this world to prevent the anti-Christ, and the Roman Catholic Church, from taking world wide power. Once the Holy Spirit is removed in the Rapture of the church the false christians will flock into the arms of the HARLOT CHURCH.

I've watched the Left Behind movies and that's not what happens!:D

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I've watched the Left Behind movies and that's not what happens!:D

I read your comment and was reminded of yesterday's Bible study. We have been discussing creation, Adam&Eve, etc, and the topic of Lucifer and demons came up. There was confusion as to exactly what a demon/devil/angel is. One of the women kept saying "But I saw the movie, it's different!" after repeating that phrase several times in response to what I was saying, I finally got her to tell me the name of the movie: 'Constantine'  I had to explain that although they used Biblical themes/names, it was not a Biblically correct movie. "But I saw the movie!" :bonk:<--me

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It's a sad fact many professing Christians understanding of the Bible and biblical matters comes from movies, TV and hearsay. I've been in Bible studies where someone will quote something from a movie and someone else will remember having heard that before and agree what they said is biblical.

I've encountered Christians who sincerely believe Christian movies are made by Christians so they have to be accurate. When confronted with a problem in the movie they get confused and wonder why I wouldn't agree with the movie since it's a Christian movie (and therefore must be "Christian" and true).

There are many Christians in America today who are preparing for what they've seen in so many Christian end-times movies. Rather than living according to God's commands in Scripture, they are preparing to be a part of God's underground army that will fight against the anti-christ. So many of these folks have become doomsday preppers, some have formed their own little "militias", they are stocking food, guns, ammo, radio equipment and the like; all in the belief they can outwit the anti-christ, live without the mark of the beast, conduct guerrilla war against the one world government and thwart the plans of the anti-christ.

NONE of that is biblical, yet that's put forth in countless end times books and movies to the point where untold thousands of Christians believe it's true.

We need to set our eyes on Jesus, be busy tending to eternal matters, and leave these worldly things and temporal matters behind.

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Eric,

Thank you for your explantation  that the Roman Catholic Church will increase dramatically once the true Christians are taken out of this earth in the coming of the Lord Jesus as depicted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 

Once the Lord Jesus takes the true Christians off the face of the earth, and the Holy Spirit is gone also, then the false Christians, and the false religions of the world, will swarm willingly into the Roman Catholic Church. The resultant swarm of religious people joining the 'MOTHER OF HARLOTS' will increase the political power of the Pope worldwide.

"And now ye know what withholdeth that the might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." 2 Thessalonians 2:6 & 7 The Holy Spirit, in the heart of the true Christians, is the only restraining power in this world to prevent the anti-Christ, and the Roman Catholic Church, from taking world wide power. Once the Holy Spirit is removed in the Rapture of the church the false christians will flock into the arms of the HARLOT CHURCH.

That is really a strange teaching.  And (a bit of KJV grammar here) if anyone taught it in our church, I would write to the elders. I did once but didn't get an answer.  I think they were probably divided;

There is nothing in scripture to suggest that the Church and Holy spirit will both be taken out of the way. 

It's a sad fact many professing Christians understanding of the Bible and biblical matters comes from movies, TV and hearsay. I've been in Bible studies where someone will quote something from a movie and someone else will remember having heard that before and agree what they said is biblical.

I've encountered Christians who sincerely believe Christian movies are made by Christians so they have to be accurate. When confronted with a problem in the movie they get confused and wonder why I wouldn't agree with the movie since it's a Christian movie (and therefore must be "Christian" and true).

There are many Christians in America today who are preparing for what they've seen in so many Christian end-times movies. Rather than living according to God's commands in Scripture, they are preparing to be a part of God's underground army that will fight against the anti-christ. So many of these folks have become doomsday preppers, some have formed their own little "militias", they are stocking food, guns, ammo, radio equipment and the like; all in the belief they can outwit the anti-christ, live without the mark of the beast, conduct guerrilla war against the one world government and thwart the plans of the anti-christ.

NONE of that is biblical, yet that's put forth in countless end times books and movies to the point where untold thousands of Christians believe it's true.

We need to set our eyes on Jesus, be busy tending to eternal matters, and leave these worldly things and temporal matters behind.

Even if Christian movies were made by Christians, it wouldn't mean they were true.  There are many books written by Christians which aren't true.

And I believe he will do it again after the rapture scares the people to church.

Proof from the  bible please?

If I may add the disagrees with Alan who said the church would be removed

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That's one of the big problems with Christian movies, many Christians just assume if it's "Christian" then it's good and what they have in the movie is true.

When I was a newborn in Christ I was still young and had not been discipled at all, and I was unaware of all the false teachers out there, the wolves in sheep's clothing, the sincere Christians who were sincerely wrong in some of their beliefs and teachings. That caused a lot of confusion for me as I read anything I could get hold of that was "Christian".

Many today are just like that. They don't know enough of Scripture and reality to know or fully grasp that not all Christians are the same and not all Christian books and movies are biblically accurate.

One major problem is the plethora of Christian books and movies that are filled with opinion, speculation and conjecture yet presented as absolute fact. This is most abundant with those in the category of prophecy and the end times.

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That's one of the big problems with Christian movies, many Christians just assume if it's "Christian" then it's good and what they have in the movie is true.

When I was a newborn in Christ I was still young and had not been discipled at all, and I was unaware of all the false teachers out there, the wolves in sheep's clothing, the sincere Christians who were sincerely wrong in some of their beliefs and teachings. That caused a lot of confusion for me as I read anything I could get hold of that was "Christian".

Many today are just like that. They don't know enough of Scripture and reality to know or fully grasp that not all Christians are the same and not all Christian books and movies are biblically accurate.

One major problem is the plethora of Christian books and movies that are filled with opinion, speculation and conjecture yet presented as absolute fact. This is most abundant with those in the category of prophecy and the end times.

Add to that the "Christian" TV & radio. Some good, some blatant heresy - how are our folk to discern, when they have an hour or two (hopefully) sound teaching in their church, & many hours a day of what is questionable - by apparently well respected teachers who have a much greater acceptance than their Pastors? 

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That's one of the big problems with Christian movies, many Christians just assume if it's "Christian" then it's good and what they have in the movie is true.

When I was a newborn in Christ I was still young and had not been discipled at all, and I was unaware of all the false teachers out there, the wolves in sheep's clothing, the sincere Christians who were sincerely wrong in some of their beliefs and teachings. That caused a lot of confusion for me as I read anything I could get hold of that was "Christian".

Many today are just like that. They don't know enough of Scripture and reality to know or fully grasp that not all Christians are the same and not all Christian books and movies are biblically accurate.

One major problem is the plethora of Christian books and movies that are filled with opinion, speculation and conjecture yet presented as absolute fact. This is most abundant with those in the category of prophecy and the end times.

When I was first converted, my dad warned me about the church I was attending but I ignored him for a number of years.

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The solution is quite simple but certainly will not occur. We are in the free fall portion of the falling away IMO so don't expect any change for the better.

All discipleship, training, mentoring, encouragement, giving, edification and service is to be done in, through and out of the local church. No one should be writing books and/or making movies. God isn't leading them in any of that. He said in His Word what a pastor, deacon, evangelist is to be and a big shot author is nowhere in there. Because all leading by God occurs through His Word and by no other venue. Every single thing we do and decision we make and work for God we do is supposed to be done with and through the local NT Church as it was exampled in Acts

It is this devilish universal mentality that has muddied the waters so badly here in these last days. Believers think they can be in God's will as free agents, doing and NOT DOING whatever they want apart from the church. They ignore their own pastors because they prefer some "big shot for God's" book on the subject or their blog, or website. HOW SAD WE ARE IN THESE DAYS. All we can do to help fix it - is to fix ourselves individually and stop this satanic free agency nonsense.

All this universal free agency really means is to NOT serve the Lord and to not give and to not grow but our flesh sure loves it and will defend it vehemently.

 

Edited by wretched

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That is really a strange teaching.  And (a bit of KJV grammar here) if anyone taught it in our church, I would write to the elders. I did once but didn't get an answer.  I think they were probably divided;

There is nothing in scripture to suggest that the Church and Holy spirit will both be taken out of the way. 

Even if Christian movies were made by Christians, it wouldn't mean they were true.  There are many books written by Christians which aren't true.

Proof from the  bible please?

If I may add the disagrees with Alan who said the church would be removed

The Holy Spirit will never leave us or forsake us so both the church and the spirit will be taken up or neither will be taken up. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12 indicates that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way of the Antichrist so we will be taken too.

 

Zephaniah 1:14-2:3 

14The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

1Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;(((Israel)))

2Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.

3Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

 

Now that Israel has gathered the day of the Lord is very, very near and the rapture is more near!

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The Holy Spirit will never leave us or forsake us so both the church and the spirit will be taken up or neither will be taken up. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12 indicates that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way of the Antichrist so we will be taken too.

 

Zephaniah 1:14-2:3 

14The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

1Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;(((Israel)))

2Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.

3Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

 

Now that Israel has gathered the day of the Lord is very, very near and the rapture is more near!

Strangely  2 Thessalonians 2:6-12 does not mention the Holy Spirit, so on what do you base that teaching on?

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The solution is quite simple but certainly will not occur. We are in the free fall portion of the falling away IMO so don't expect any change for the better.

All discipleship, training, mentoring, encouragement, giving, edification and service is to be done in, through and out of the local church. No one should be writing books and/or making movies. God isn't leading them in any of that. He said in His Word what a pastor, deacon, evangelist is to be and a big shot author is nowhere in there. Because all leading by God occurs through His Word and by no other venue. Every single thing we do and decision we make and work for God we do is supposed to be done with and through the local NT Church as it was exampled in Acts

It is this devilish universal mentality that has muddied the waters so badly here in these last days. Believers think they can be in God's will as free agents, doing and NOT DOING whatever they want apart from the church. They ignore their own pastors because they prefer some "big shot for God's" book on the subject or their blog, or website. HOW SAD WE ARE IN THESE DAYS. All we can do to help fix it - is to fix ourselves individually and stop this satanic free agency nonsense.

All this universal free agency really means is to NOT serve the Lord and to not give and to not grow but our flesh sure loves it and will defend it vehemently.

 

Where is the falling away taking place? Only here in America or it this happening in other countries too?

What about all those countries where Christianity is thriving? What about those nations where the lost are coming to Christ in droves?

Short of revival in America, it does seem America is not only falling away, but intent upon falling faster. If a person has or can find a good local home church it may be wise to get firmly rooted there.

It was Christian literature which helped prepare my heart to be open to Christ. It was through the showing of a Christian movie at a church on a Sunday night that I was convicted, heard the Gospel, and was born again in Christ.

During the time I was discipled I received much instruction and training through books and booklets from Oliver B. Greene, John R. Rice and others.

How many millions have come to Christ and grown in Christ through the writings of pastors God has used in mighty ways?

 

 

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Where is the falling away taking place? Only here in America or it this happening in other countries too?

What about all those countries where Christianity is thriving? What about those nations where the lost are coming to Christ in droves?

Short of revival in America, it does seem America is not only falling away, but intent upon falling faster. If a person has or can find a good local home church it may be wise to get firmly rooted there.

It was Christian literature which helped prepare my heart to be open to Christ. It was through the showing of a Christian movie at a church on a Sunday night that I was convicted, heard the Gospel, and was born again in Christ.

During the time I was discipled I received much instruction and training through books and booklets from Oliver B. Greene, John R. Rice and others.

How many millions have come to Christ and grown in Christ through the writings of pastors God has used in mighty ways?

 

 

This is a part of the point I make John. Discipleship to us is "here read this dude and that dude and I will see you back in church next week"

 

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This is a part of the point I make John. Discipleship to us is "here read this dude and that dude and I will see you back in church next week"

 

In my case, that's not what happened. The books were enhancements to the personal discipleship I received from a mature Christian man and our pastor.

I agree that simply handing someone a book and considering that to be how they disciple people is not right.

I also agree that much of what's put forth out there, especially in the American market, as Christian books are not good or worthwhile at all. The Left Behind series, all those Christian romance novels and historical Christian fiction, those excitement filled, fictionalized end times books (which are usually presented as fact), the never ending flow of prophecy books claiming "this is it", those books put forth by secular Christians, feel-good pastors, celebrity seekers and those just looking to make a buck, should all be dismissed and not even counted as Christian.

 

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It is the Comforter or Holy Spirit in the Christian that reproves the world of sin John16:7-8. That is who letteth or restrains the Antichrist.

Not so.  The early church writers all taught that the he that letteth was the Roman Emperor and the What was the Empire,  That is the true understanding  of that scripture.  The papacy could never have attained the power it did if the Emperor or the Empire was still in Place. There could never have been two empires in one place at the same time.  If Paul meant that Holy Spirit there was no reason he should not have said so.  But to mention that the Empire would end was not the wisest thing to have said.  Paul said the Christians at that time knew what he meant because he told them.  They passed it on to those following them and they told us.

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Not so.  The early church writers all taught that the he that letteth was the Roman Emperor and the What was the Empire,  That is the true understanding  of that scripture.  The papacy could never have attained the power it did if the Emperor or the Empire was still in Place. There could never have been two empires in one place at the same time.  If Paul meant that Holy Spirit there was no reason he should not have said so.  But to mention that the Empire would end was not the wisest thing to have said.  Paul said the Christians at that time knew what he meant because he told them.  They passed it on to those following them and they told us.

Wow, fascinating..I doubt I have ever witnessed Scripture reduced to hearsay and rumor so well. Early church writers, huh? I would ask who but the proper question is who cares?

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GP,

Isaiah 1-2, 19-20

I am lost here Eric. Did you by chance give a wrong reference here? I don't see anything in these verses saying what you said.

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