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I've only heard a very few Baptists who preach this view (the view Invicta posted) or something similar.

Most Baptist pastors, here in the States anyway, preach a pre-trib rapture view, with the a mid-trib rapture view probably a distant second and any other view in the small minority.

AFAIK the historical interpretation is the "standard" understanding of Revelation in the UK. 

Hendriksen in his "More than Conquerors"  Grier in "The Momentous Event" examines Scofield's dispensationalism against Scripture, & presents a continuous historical interpretation. He dismisses a pre-AD 70 writing on the basis of Irenaeus' letter. That book was given me when I encountered disp-ism at university in 1958. I studied it, preached through Revelation in the 90s using  it as my guide, & more recently decided that Revelation was seen before AD 70, with immediate relevance to its first readers, and with application down the centuries, with persecution by the Roman empire & the RCC, & other persecuting powers. 

The  idea that it all about Israel & a yet future tribulation makes it irrelevant to the church - to the living suffering to whom it was addressed in the opening chapter. 

Correction:

My profound apologies - I referred to Hendriksen & "More than Conquerors" from memory of at least 2 decades ago. 

Actually it is not the book I was referring to at all. I haven't read it nor seen it. 

It was "The Momentous Event" by W.J. Grier. His biography is here. 

 

Edited by Covenanter
Correction of author & title

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AFAIK the historical interpretation is the "standard" understanding of Revelation in the UK. 

Hendriksen in his "More than Conquerors" examines Scofield's dispensationalism against Scripture, & presents a continuous historical interpretation. He dismisses a pre-AD 70 writing on the basis of Irenaeus' letter. That book was given me when I encountered disp-ism at university in 1958. I studied it, preached through Revelation in the 90s using  it as my guide, & more recently decided that Revelation was seen before AD 70, with immediate relevance to its first readers, and with application down the centuries, with persecution by the Roman empire & the RCC, & other persecuting powers. 

The  idea that it all about Israel & a yet future tribulation makes it irrelevant to the church - to the living suffering to whom it was addressed in the opening chapter. 

 

 

The "continuous historical interpretation," of Revelation as set forth by Hendriksen is in doctrinal and scriptural error. Hendriksen, and other individuals, that present this view that make the book of Revelation a historical account of the church is their own private interpretation. It is an affront to the very word of God, a disbelief of the word of God, and heretical.

Eric Stalh was doctrinally correct when he plainly stated that the two candlesticks are the two Jewish prophets, sent by God, as chosen witnesses by God to prophecy against the Anti-Christ as Moses was chosen by to prophecy against Pharoah. 

Alan

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Isaiah 25:1-7 looks forward to the end of time in the first half of the tribulation period. Daniel 11:43b-45 also describes the time when Russia and her allies come against the Antichrist in Israel. Ezekiel 39:1-8 also explains that when Israel sees the fire that destroys the invaders they turn back to God forever. It is at the 6th seal judgment when the heavens are set on fire and they burn up all the way around the world. That is why the sun will become 7 fold strength Isaiah 30:25-26.

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AFAIK the historical interpretation is the "standard" understanding of Revelation in the UK. 

Hendriksen in his "More than Conquerors" examines Scofield's dispensationalism against Scripture, & presents a continuous historical interpretation. He dismisses a pre-AD 70 writing on the basis of Irenaeus' letter. That book was given me when I encountered disp-ism at university in 1958. I studied it, preached through Revelation in the 90s using  it as my guide, & more recently decided that Revelation was seen before AD 70, with immediate relevance to its first readers, and with application down the centuries, with persecution by the Roman empire & the RCC, & other persecuting powers. 

The  idea that it all about Israel & a yet future tribulation makes it irrelevant to the church - to the living suffering to whom it was addressed in the opening chapter. 

 

 

Brethren,

Permit me to give you a brief rundown on, "William Hendriksen, (November 18, 1900-January 12, 1982)," mentioned by Covenanter.

1. Hendriksen was not a Baptist, nor independent, nor a fundamentalist.

2. Hendriksen was a graduate of 'Calvin College,' and 'Calvin Theological Seminary,' He received a Th.D from Princeton Thological Seminary.'He was a staunch Calvinist and liberal.

3. Hendriksen was a minister in the Christian Reformed Church.

4. From 1942-1952 he was a Professor of the New Testament at Calvin Theological Seminary.

5. He translated the Book of Revelation for the New International Version, (NIV). Hendriksen not only despied C. I. Scofield, the Scofield Reference Bible, the dispensations that Scofield taught, but he also despised the King James Version the 1611.

6. Hendriksen wrote the widely accepted book among Preterists, "MoreThan Conquerors." The book is uses a complete 'Preterist,' viewpoint of the Book of Revelation. Hendriksen believes there is no literal Tribulation Period, no literal Millenium, no literal two witnesses in Revelation 11, and so forth. Hendriksen believes that the book of Revelation is purely symbolic and is for the church only.

7. Hendriksen also wrote the book, "Israel and Prophecy." The book, 'Israel and Prophecy," is a liberal, ant-Semitic book that criticizes the return and restoration of the Jews to Israel.

In my estimation, according to his writings, Hendriksen was heretic, apostate, anti-Semitic liberal. Hendriksen is one of the Bible correctors that God pronounced judgment on in  Revelalation 22:18 and 19 .

Hendriksen, and his writings, are heretical: anti-KJV, anti-independent, anti-Baptist, anti-Semetic, and anti-fundamental. All of the brethren should be warned about Hendriksen and his heresies. Hendriksen should not be allowed as a source of material on any OnLine Baptist thread.

Alan

Edited by Alan
grammer (three times)

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For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Its time to preach Jesus, the one and only savior of all mankind.

(Why is it spelled succoured and not succored?)

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My profound apologies - I referred to Hendriksen & "More than Conquerors" from memory of at least 2 decades ago. 

Actually it is not the book I was referring to at all. I haven't read it nor seen it. 

It was "The Momentous Event" by W.J. Grier. His biography is here. 

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The "continuous historical interpretation," of Revelation as set forth by... and other individuals, that present this view that make the book of Revelation a historical account of the church is their own private interpretation. It is an affront to the very word of God, a disbelief of the word of God, and heretical. 

Alan

And yours is not? You might need to get a new defense here Alan.

Brethren,

In my estimation, according to his writings, Hendriksen was heretic, apostate, anti-Semitic liberal. Hendriksen is one of the Bible correctors that God pronounced judgment on in  Revelalation 22:18 and 19 .

Hendriksen, and his writings, are heretical: anti-KJV, anti-independent, anti-Baptist, anti-Semetic, and anti-fundamental. All of the brethren should be warned about Hendriksen and his heresies. Hendriksen should not be allowed as a source of material on any OnLine Baptist thread.

Alan

So you read his writings? I haven't either. But sometimes your 'estimation' can be biased on your opinion and view that was drilled into you by 'teachers' that were blind.

The same things you say are heretical and anti-semetic and Bible correcting, also go the reverse toward followers of dispensationalism.

Seems like a viscious cycle to me, and senseless to call a man such when it is in your own estimation.

And since when are we not aloud to use 'source' information Alan? That doesn't seem quite fair.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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AFAIK the historical interpretation is the "standard" understanding of Revelation in the UK. 

Hendriksen in his "More than Conquerors"  Grier in "The Momentous Event" examines Scofield's dispensationalism against Scripture, & presents a continuous historical interpretation. He dismisses a pre-AD 70 writing on the basis of Irenaeus' letter. That book was given me when I encountered disp-ism at university in 1958. I studied it, preached through Revelation in the 90s using  it as my guide, & more recently decided that Revelation was seen before AD 70, with immediate relevance to its first readers, and with application down the centuries, with persecution by the Roman empire & the RCC, & other persecuting powers. 

The  idea that it all about Israel & a yet future tribulation makes it irrelevant to the church - to the living suffering to whom it was addressed in the opening chapter. 

Correction:

My profound apologies - I referred to Hendriksen & "More than Conquerors" from memory of at least 2 decades ago. 

Actually it is not the book I was referring to at all. I haven't read it nor seen it. 

It was "The Momentous Event" by W.J. Grier. His biography is here. 

 

I agree Ian. How does giving a book to a lost people with no Spirit of God, and no Christians present to preach the meaning of things occurring, show the love of God to his supposed chosen people?

It doesn't.

God wrote the book of Revelation to his saved people, otherwise known as Christians, made up up gentile nations and Israelites combined.

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Isaiah 30:25 & 26 is an interesting verse when you consider it. The sun being lighter than sevenfold than it is now and the moon as light as the sun.

As the dust from the nuclear war clears from the atmosphere the sun will get hotter and hotter till it scorches men Revelation 16:8-9. In Gods mercy he will stop the sun and moon over Israel forming a permanent solar eclipse giving Israel a 200mile spot of shadow. That causes darkness on the seat of the beast in Israel Daniel 11:45 and darkness on his kingdom on the dark side of the earth in North America. Revelation16:10-11.

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As the dust from the nuclear war clears from the atmosphere the sun will get hotter and hotter till it scorches men Revelation 16:8-9. In Gods mercy he will stop the sun and moon over Israel forming a permanent solar eclipse giving Israel a 200mile spot of shadow. That causes darkness on the seat of the beast in Israel Daniel 11:45 and darkness on his kingdom on the dark side of the earth in North America. Revelation16:10-11.

Total speculation. Which, if this was clearly presented as your personal opinion, wouldn't be a problem.

Notice in the first verse you cited it says the fourth angel was given power to scorch men with fire. This verse doesn't give any indication of a nuclear war or of the sun getting hotter and hotter.

In the other Revelation passage it indicates the darkness is very painful. This would likely indicate darkness is referring to something other than lack of sunlight.

Beyond that, if one considers the ramifications of your theory on this point they would be far more devastating and have a much larger impact that wouldn't fit in with the rest of Revelation.

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Total speculation. Which, if this was clearly presented as your personal opinion, wouldn't be a problem.

Notice in the first verse you cited it says the fourth angel was given power to scorch men with fire. This verse doesn't give any indication of a nuclear war or of the sun getting hotter and hotter.

In the other Revelation passage it indicates the darkness is very painful. This would likely indicate darkness is referring to something other than lack of sunlight.

Beyond that, if one considers the ramifications of your theory on this point they would be far more devastating and have a much larger impact that wouldn't fit in with the rest of Revelation.

cause and effect

The nuclear attack was in Isaiah 25:4-7 when the blast of the terrible ones destroys the veil over every nation and the covering over the whole earth. Heavens rolling up as a scroll. The effect is a hotter sun.

The darkness causes pain and teeth chattering because of the cold when the sun stays over Israel.

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cause and effect

The nuclear attack was in Isaiah 25:4-7 when the blast of the terrible ones destroys the veil over every nation and the covering over the whole earth. Heavens rolling up as a scroll. The effect is a hotter sun.

The darkness causes pain and teeth chattering because of the cold when the sun stays over Israel.

More speculation. There is nothing about a nuclear attack. Even the idea something in the atmosphere could be destroyed due to a nuclear war is speculation, which many scientists reject.

Prior to the first nuclear bomb explosion there were some predicting such an explosion would cause a chain reaction that would destroy the planet.

Aerosol spray was said to be the cause of the destruction of the ozone, placing earth in imminent danger. Such sprays were banned. Then the true scientific data came forth showing aerosol sprays had no effect upon the ozone.

In a short amount of time, if an entire area of the earth were to become a dark side, life would cease to exist there. It would just be teeth chattering cold, it would be life ending cold.

A nuclear war would pollute the atmosphere less than a major volcanic eruption; which earth has survived many times already.

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For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Its time to preach Jesus, the one and only savior of all mankind.

(Why is it spelled succoured and not succored?)

Because, MC, grammar wasn't the only thing that changed over the centuries since 1611. Spelling and shapes of letters have changed drastically. Many words were spelled the way they sounded, and not by a particular rule of spelling like they are now.

Comparing the Geneva Bible (1560) to the original King James Bible (1611), there are multitudes of differences between the two in spelling.

In most cases, comparing the same verses from each Bible, the Geneva matches our modern day rules more closely. Kinda wierd but true.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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More speculation. There is nothing about a nuclear attack. Even the idea something in the atmosphere could be destroyed due to a nuclear war is speculation, which many scientists reject.

Prior to the first nuclear bomb explosion there were some predicting such an explosion would cause a chain reaction that would destroy the planet.

Aerosol spray was said to be the cause of the destruction of the ozone, placing earth in imminent danger. Such sprays were banned. Then the true scientific data came forth showing aerosol sprays had no effect upon the ozone.

In a short amount of time, if an entire area of the earth were to become a dark side, life would cease to exist there. It would just be teeth chattering cold, it would be life ending cold.

A nuclear war would pollute the atmosphere less than a major volcanic eruption; which earth has survived many times already.

If it quacks like a duck!

Yes the dark side of the earth will be an ice cap.

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If it quacks like a duck!

Yes the dark side of the earth will be an ice cap.

Yet that's the point, some of what you are speculating doesn't quack like a duck so it's probably not a duck.

If half the earth becomes a dark side and an ice cap, those things described of men in those verses won't be occurring because they will quickly all perish. This doesn't seem to agree with other portions of Scripture in Revelation. Where do we read in Revelation of half the planet quickly dying? Of half the planet being unlivable? Then what about all the other verses dealing with other aspects of the wrath of God; where does it say those only effect half the planet?

These things don't add up when taking Scripture as a whole.

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Yet that's the point, some of what you are speculating doesn't quack like a duck so it's probably not a duck.

If half the earth becomes a dark side and an ice cap, those things described of men in those verses won't be occurring because they will quickly all perish. This doesn't seem to agree with other portions of Scripture in Revelation. Where do we read in Revelation of half the planet quickly dying? Of half the planet being unlivable? Then what about all the other verses dealing with other aspects of the wrath of God; where does it say those only effect half the planet?

These things don't add up when taking Scripture as a whole.

Isaiah 60:19-20 Tells us that during the kingdom age the sun will not shine on Israel even though both the sun and moon stay over Israel. That is a good description of a permanent solar eclipse over Israel. It started during the 2nd half of the tribulation before Armageddon see Habakkuk 3:11-13. the effects of the permanent solar eclipse is described in many scriptures about the day of the Lord. During a solar eclipse you can't see the sun, moon,or stars.

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Isaiah 60:19-20 Tells us that during the kingdom age the sun will not shine on Israel even though both the sun and moon stay over Israel. That is a good description of a permanent solar eclipse over Israel. It started during the 2nd half of the tribulation before Armageddon see Habakkuk 3:11-13. the effects of the permanent solar eclipse is described in many scriptures about the day of the Lord. During a solar eclipse you can't see the sun, moon,or stars.

Eric, have you tried looking at the context of the Scripture you quote? 

Isaiah 60 is clearly Messianic, & those verses are quoted in Rev. 21 as applying in the NH&NE, not a future millennium - which has an end & is not everlasting. 

In Habakkuk 3 the prophet is contemplating the Babylonian invasion, & the great encouragement when all the props of the Law have been destroyed that the just shall live by faith. He reminds himself of the wonderful way God led his people out of Egypt, through the wilderness to the promised land, & of the many specific providential blessings. Specifically Josh. 10:12-14 

 

 

.

 

 

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Eric, have you tried looking at the context of the Scripture you quote? 

Isaiah 60 is clearly Messianic, & those verses are quoted in Rev. 21 as applying in the NH&NE, not a future millennium - which has an end & is not everlasting. 

In Habakkuk 3 the prophet is contemplating the Babylonian invasion, & the great encouragement when all the props of the Law have been destroyed that the just shall live by faith. He reminds himself of the wonderful way God led his people out of Egypt, through the wilderness to the promised land, & of the many specific providential blessings. Specifically Josh. 10:12-14 

 

 

.

 

 

Covenanter,

Yes, Jesus will make the heaven and earth new for the 1000 year kingdom see Isaiah 65:17-25.

Habakkuk is about the last Babylon that will be the kingdom of Antichrist which comes after Jesus comes and the just live by faith. Habakkuk 3:11-13 is about Jesus and the saints coming to Armageddon.

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Covenanter,

Yes, Jesus will make the heaven and earth new for the 1000 year kingdom see Isaiah 65:17-25.

Habakkuk is about the last Babylon that will be the kingdom of Antichrist which comes after Jesus comes and the just live by faith. Habakkuk 3:11-13 is about Jesus and the saints coming to Armageddon.

Brother, you need to reread Isaiah 65. It is not the 1000 years you refer to. The NH & NE are not present in the usual teaching of the 1000 year reign.

That makes the NH & NE in Eternity. (I like this blue color!)

Rev. 21 says -

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Isaiah 60:19-20 Tells us that during the kingdom age the sun will not shine on Israel even though both the sun and moon stay over Israel. That is a good description of a permanent solar eclipse over Israel. It started during the 2nd half of the tribulation before Armageddon see Habakkuk 3:11-13. the effects of the permanent solar eclipse is described in many scriptures about the day of the Lord. During a solar eclipse you can't see the sun, moon,or stars.

But, as most earthlings know, you CAN see daylight during a solar eclipse. I experienced a full solar eclipse back in '86. It was a little dim out but not dark at all.

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I've only heard a very few Baptists who preach this view (the view Invicta posted) or something similar.

Most Baptist pastors, here in the States anyway, preach a pre-trib rapture view, with the a mid-trib rapture view probably a distant second and any other view in the small minority.

Well John not many Baptists over here these days teach quite that.  Most Baptists, around this area who are not ecumenical  would follow Hendriksen I believe.  I do not follow Hendriksen.  Up to the mid 19th century, the only people who taught the pre tribulation rapture were the Brethren.  I don' know of any church who has in their constitution a belief in the pre-tribulation rapture,   The Brethren would assume it. Covenanter may know of some.  The only church I have come across that has it in its statement of faith was the American Church in Luxembourg.  I think it is now called the International Church.  Another pastor over there told me that they were SB. There were two members of our church who I used to disagree with but they are both in in glory now.  Our secretary is the son of one of them  and I suspect he is PTR as he is ex Brethren.  We did have a Brethren man who taught PTR .  One evening he spoke about Acts 1: 9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
 He said that this coming is only to Jews as Jesus was speaking to Jews. After the service I asked "Where are Christians at this time?"  He said "In heaven."  He than shouted "You don't believe the scriptures and turned on his heel and walked away. But someone who had been listening to the conversation said the me "The angel was talking to Christians."  I said "Of course he was." Those who call me a heretic and a false teacher must also call all Christians BB, false teachers and heretics.

Brother, you need to reread Isaiah 65. It is not the 1000 years you refer to. The NH & NE are not present in the usual teaching of the 1000 year reign.

That makes the NH & NE in Eternity. (I like this blue color!)

Rev. 21 says -

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But, as most earthlings know, you CAN see daylight during a solar eclipse. I experienced a full solar eclipse back in '86. It was a little dim out but not dark at all.

I saw the eclipse in 1999 and was trying to take pictures of it I got a couple just before it went total when my film ran out (those were the days)  It was certainly too dark to change my film so I didn't get any more pictures. It was fairly cloudy and the pictures I took were a crescent sun through the clouds.

Edited by Invicta
I have been merged again

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Brother, you need to reread Isaiah 65. It is not the 1000 years you refer to. The NH & NE are not present in the usual teaching of the 1000 year reign.

That makes the NH & NE in Eternity. (I like this blue color!)

Rev. 21 says -

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But, as most earthlings know, you CAN see daylight during a solar eclipse. I experienced a full solar eclipse back in '86. It was a little dim out but not dark at all.

The twilight keeps people from seeing the stars and since the sun is behind the moon you don't see it or the moon.

If you read Isaiah 65:17-25 you will notice that the heavens and earth are renewed but there is still sin and death during the 1000year kingdom. The new heaven and earth in eternity will not have sin or death in them.

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Eric,

Very good! Amazing what happens when a person carefully reads, and rightly divides, the scriptures. There is a lot of study that needs to be involved in Isaiah 65:17-25 and Revelation 20 and Revelation 21:1 These three passages need a lot of detailed study and prayer to fully understand the future things of God.

Thank you again for your correct interpretation.

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The twilight keeps people from seeing the stars and since the sun is behind the moon you don't see it or the moon.

If you read Isaiah 65:17-25 you will notice that the heavens and earth are renewed but there is still sin and death during the 1000year kingdom. The new heaven and earth in eternity will not have sin or death in them.

Eric,

Very good! Amazing what happens when a person carefully reads, and rightly divides, the scriptures. There is a lot of study that needs to be involved in Isaiah 65:17-25 and Revelation 20 and Revelation 21:1 These three passages need a lot of detailed study and prayer to fully understand the future things of God.

Thank you again for your correct interpretation.

You both are wrong in your understanding of this section of verses and it makes me sad that you only see what you have been trained to believe - the teachings of some men in the past, who among other things wants you to think more highly of a bloodline of false doctrines, than to know the scriptures and what they really teach.

 

There is only one time there is a NH & NE. And that is in Eternity.

 

Thank you Alan for putting yourself in with this teaching, it shows your 'view' for what it is, training by men in the past who really want us to worship a 'people' who claim God as their own, and want Christianity to treat them as such - gods ; a people that do not have God as their Father and do lie to cover the true teachings of the word of God as they have always been taught.

 

Enough said. (and notice that I didn't use ANY bold or colored letters?)

If it quacks like a duck!

Yes the dark side of the earth will be an ice cap.

And where oh where do you get this?

Guess we should stock up on wool blankets, eh?

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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