Members Invicta Posted August 12, 2015 Members Share Posted August 12, 2015 According to Brother Wretched these books aren't good and we should only read Scripture and listen to sermons. Along these lines, how do we have decades worth of books with the authors claiming to have this latter day wisdom yet their books are wholly or partly proven false already? Does God only give a limited few, a special elect group, understanding of the end times? How do we reconcile the many prophecy preachers and authors who claim to have this special revelation today yet their revelations are not the same? How does your understanding and book fit into this puzzle?Obviously when trying to understand prophecy we should also understand history as prophecy is history written in advance. If we don't read history we cannot know if prophecy is fulfilled or still to be fulfilled. There are those, like the Brethren, who blind their followers by teaching them that there is no prophecy being fulfilled, or to be fulfilled in the so called 'church age.' They say this age is a parenthesis, not included in prophecy. How sad, how foolish. The church is God's master plan. Genevanpreacher and Covenanter 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alan Posted August 12, 2015 Members Share Posted August 12, 2015 7 year tribulationRevelation chapter 11 explains that the ministry of the two witnesses is finished after 1260 days a the end of the second woe which is the 6th trumpet judgment. That is the first half of the 7 years. At the blowing of the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Jesus after they defeat the devil and his angels and cast him to the earth where he will persecute Israel for a times, time and half a time or 3.5 years Revelation 12:13-14.That is the last half of the 7 years. Eric,Thank you very much for this scriptual explanation of the of the 7 year Tribulation Period and the proper interpretation of the division of the two segments: 3 and a half years. I appreciate your labor, knowledge, and willingness to teach the correct interpretation of the Book of Revelation. As the Lord leads you, I want to encourage you to continue your exposition of the Book of Revelation and the 7 year Tribulation Period. May the Lord Jesus be with you.Alan Eric Stahl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric Stahl Posted August 13, 2015 Author Members Share Posted August 13, 2015 Can I echo Invicta's question and statement, I have never seen any time period applied to any tribulation in scripture either. apart from Rev 2:10Does this help?Revelation chapter 11 explains that the ministry of the two witnesses is finished after 1260 days a the end of the 6th trumpet judgment. That is the first half of the 7 years. At the blowing of the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Jesus after they defeat the devil and his angels and cast him to the earth where he will persecute Israel for a times, time and half a time or 3.5 years Revelation 12:13-14.That is the last half of the 7 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Invicta Posted August 13, 2015 Members Share Posted August 13, 2015 (edited) Does this help?Revelation chapter 11 explains that the ministry of the two witnesses is finished after 1260 days a the end of the 6th trumpet judgment. That is the first half of the 7 years. At the blowing of the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Jesus after they defeat the devil and his angels and cast him to the earth where he will persecute Israel for a times, time and half a time or 3.5 years Revelation 12:13-14.That is the last half of the 7 years. Have you ever studied the symbolism of the two witnesses? 3 ¶ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.Candlesticks represent churches. Re 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;Re 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.Re 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.Candlesticks represent churches.Olive Trees:?Zec 4:1 ¶ And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.11 ¶ Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. In the Continuous Historical interpretation, the seven Candlesticks represent the whole church. seven being the number of completeness. The two witnesses or candlesticks represent churches in their most depleted state in the dark ages of the great tribulation on the church. the seven Candlesticks represent the whole church. The two olive trees represent the anointed ministers or pastors fed with thye oil of the Holy Spirit. Edited August 13, 2015 by Invicta Correction Covenanter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted August 14, 2015 Members Share Posted August 14, 2015 I've only heard a very few Baptists who preach this view (the view Invicta posted) or something similar.Most Baptist pastors, here in the States anyway, preach a pre-trib rapture view, with the a mid-trib rapture view probably a distant second and any other view in the small minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Covenanter Posted August 14, 2015 Members Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) I've only heard a very few Baptists who preach this view (the view Invicta posted) or something similar.Most Baptist pastors, here in the States anyway, preach a pre-trib rapture view, with the a mid-trib rapture view probably a distant second and any other view in the small minority.AFAIK the historical interpretation is the "standard" understanding of Revelation in the UK. Hendriksen in his "More than Conquerors" Grier in "The Momentous Event" examines Scofield's dispensationalism against Scripture, & presents a continuous historical interpretation. He dismisses a pre-AD 70 writing on the basis of Irenaeus' letter. That book was given me when I encountered disp-ism at university in 1958. I studied it, preached through Revelation in the 90s using it as my guide, & more recently decided that Revelation was seen before AD 70, with immediate relevance to its first readers, and with application down the centuries, with persecution by the Roman empire & the RCC, & other persecuting powers. The idea that it all about Israel & a yet future tribulation makes it irrelevant to the church - to the living suffering to whom it was addressed in the opening chapter. Correction:My profound apologies - I referred to Hendriksen & "More than Conquerors" from memory of at least 2 decades ago. Actually it is not the book I was referring to at all. I haven't read it nor seen it. It was "The Momentous Event" by W.J. Grier. His biography is here. Edited August 15, 2015 by Covenanter Correction of author & title Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alan Posted August 14, 2015 Members Share Posted August 14, 2015 AFAIK the historical interpretation is the "standard" understanding of Revelation in the UK. Hendriksen in his "More than Conquerors" examines Scofield's dispensationalism against Scripture, & presents a continuous historical interpretation. He dismisses a pre-AD 70 writing on the basis of Irenaeus' letter. That book was given me when I encountered disp-ism at university in 1958. I studied it, preached through Revelation in the 90s using it as my guide, & more recently decided that Revelation was seen before AD 70, with immediate relevance to its first readers, and with application down the centuries, with persecution by the Roman empire & the RCC, & other persecuting powers. The idea that it all about Israel & a yet future tribulation makes it irrelevant to the church - to the living suffering to whom it was addressed in the opening chapter. The "continuous historical interpretation," of Revelation as set forth by Hendriksen is in doctrinal and scriptural error. Hendriksen, and other individuals, that present this view that make the book of Revelation a historical account of the church is their own private interpretation. It is an affront to the very word of God, a disbelief of the word of God, and heretical.Eric Stalh was doctrinally correct when he plainly stated that the two candlesticks are the two Jewish prophets, sent by God, as chosen witnesses by God to prophecy against the Anti-Christ as Moses was chosen by to prophecy against Pharoah. Alan wretched, Ronda and EKSmith 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric Stahl Posted August 15, 2015 Author Members Share Posted August 15, 2015 Isaiah 25:1-7 looks forward to the end of time in the first half of the tribulation period. Daniel 11:43b-45 also describes the time when Russia and her allies come against the Antichrist in Israel. Ezekiel 39:1-8 also explains that when Israel sees the fire that destroys the invaders they turn back to God forever. It is at the 6th seal judgment when the heavens are set on fire and they burn up all the way around the world. That is why the sun will become 7 fold strength Isaiah 30:25-26. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alan Posted August 15, 2015 Members Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) AFAIK the historical interpretation is the "standard" understanding of Revelation in the UK. Hendriksen in his "More than Conquerors" examines Scofield's dispensationalism against Scripture, & presents a continuous historical interpretation. He dismisses a pre-AD 70 writing on the basis of Irenaeus' letter. That book was given me when I encountered disp-ism at university in 1958. I studied it, preached through Revelation in the 90s using it as my guide, & more recently decided that Revelation was seen before AD 70, with immediate relevance to its first readers, and with application down the centuries, with persecution by the Roman empire & the RCC, & other persecuting powers. The idea that it all about Israel & a yet future tribulation makes it irrelevant to the church - to the living suffering to whom it was addressed in the opening chapter. Brethren,Permit me to give you a brief rundown on, "William Hendriksen, (November 18, 1900-January 12, 1982)," mentioned by Covenanter. 1. Hendriksen was not a Baptist, nor independent, nor a fundamentalist. 2. Hendriksen was a graduate of 'Calvin College,' and 'Calvin Theological Seminary,' He received a Th.D from Princeton Thological Seminary.'He was a staunch Calvinist and liberal. 3. Hendriksen was a minister in the Christian Reformed Church.4. From 1942-1952 he was a Professor of the New Testament at Calvin Theological Seminary.5. He translated the Book of Revelation for the New International Version, (NIV). Hendriksen not only despied C. I. Scofield, the Scofield Reference Bible, the dispensations that Scofield taught, but he also despised the King James Version the 1611. 6. Hendriksen wrote the widely accepted book among Preterists, "MoreThan Conquerors." The book is uses a complete 'Preterist,' viewpoint of the Book of Revelation. Hendriksen believes there is no literal Tribulation Period, no literal Millenium, no literal two witnesses in Revelation 11, and so forth. Hendriksen believes that the book of Revelation is purely symbolic and is for the church only.7. Hendriksen also wrote the book, "Israel and Prophecy." The book, 'Israel and Prophecy," is a liberal, ant-Semitic book that criticizes the return and restoration of the Jews to Israel.In my estimation, according to his writings, Hendriksen was heretic, apostate, anti-Semitic liberal. Hendriksen is one of the Bible correctors that God pronounced judgment on in Revelalation 22:18 and 19 .Hendriksen, and his writings, are heretical: anti-KJV, anti-independent, anti-Baptist, anti-Semetic, and anti-fundamental. All of the brethren should be warned about Hendriksen and his heresies. Hendriksen should not be allowed as a source of material on any OnLine Baptist thread.Alan Edited August 15, 2015 by Alan grammer (three times) wretched 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MountainChristian Posted August 15, 2015 Members Share Posted August 15, 2015 For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.Its time to preach Jesus, the one and only savior of all mankind.(Why is it spelled succoured and not succored?) wretched, EKSmith and Alan 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Covenanter Posted August 15, 2015 Members Share Posted August 15, 2015 My profound apologies - I referred to Hendriksen & "More than Conquerors" from memory of at least 2 decades ago. Actually it is not the book I was referring to at all. I haven't read it nor seen it. It was "The Momentous Event" by W.J. Grier. His biography is here. Genevanpreacher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted August 15, 2015 Members Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) The "continuous historical interpretation," of Revelation as set forth by... and other individuals, that present this view that make the book of Revelation a historical account of the church is their own private interpretation. It is an affront to the very word of God, a disbelief of the word of God, and heretical. AlanAnd yours is not? You might need to get a new defense here Alan. Brethren,In my estimation, according to his writings, Hendriksen was heretic, apostate, anti-Semitic liberal. Hendriksen is one of the Bible correctors that God pronounced judgment on in Revelalation 22:18 and 19 .Hendriksen, and his writings, are heretical: anti-KJV, anti-independent, anti-Baptist, anti-Semetic, and anti-fundamental. All of the brethren should be warned about Hendriksen and his heresies. Hendriksen should not be allowed as a source of material on any OnLine Baptist thread.AlanSo you read his writings? I haven't either. But sometimes your 'estimation' can be biased on your opinion and view that was drilled into you by 'teachers' that were blind.The same things you say are heretical and anti-semetic and Bible correcting, also go the reverse toward followers of dispensationalism.Seems like a viscious cycle to me, and senseless to call a man such when it is in your own estimation.And since when are we not aloud to use 'source' information Alan? That doesn't seem quite fair. Edited August 15, 2015 by Genevanpreacher Covenanter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted August 15, 2015 Members Share Posted August 15, 2015 AFAIK the historical interpretation is the "standard" understanding of Revelation in the UK. Hendriksen in his "More than Conquerors" Grier in "The Momentous Event" examines Scofield's dispensationalism against Scripture, & presents a continuous historical interpretation. He dismisses a pre-AD 70 writing on the basis of Irenaeus' letter. That book was given me when I encountered disp-ism at university in 1958. I studied it, preached through Revelation in the 90s using it as my guide, & more recently decided that Revelation was seen before AD 70, with immediate relevance to its first readers, and with application down the centuries, with persecution by the Roman empire & the RCC, & other persecuting powers. The idea that it all about Israel & a yet future tribulation makes it irrelevant to the church - to the living suffering to whom it was addressed in the opening chapter. Correction:My profound apologies - I referred to Hendriksen & "More than Conquerors" from memory of at least 2 decades ago. Actually it is not the book I was referring to at all. I haven't read it nor seen it. It was "The Momentous Event" by W.J. Grier. His biography is here. I agree Ian. How does giving a book to a lost people with no Spirit of God, and no Christians present to preach the meaning of things occurring, show the love of God to his supposed chosen people?It doesn't.God wrote the book of Revelation to his saved people, otherwise known as Christians, made up up gentile nations and Israelites combined. Covenanter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alan Posted August 15, 2015 Members Share Posted August 15, 2015 Isaiah 30:25 & 26 is an interesting verse when you consider it. The sun being lighter than sevenfold than it is now and the moon as light as the sun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric Stahl Posted August 15, 2015 Author Members Share Posted August 15, 2015 Isaiah 30:25 & 26 is an interesting verse when you consider it. The sun being lighter than sevenfold than it is now and the moon as light as the sun.As the dust from the nuclear war clears from the atmosphere the sun will get hotter and hotter till it scorches men Revelation 16:8-9. In Gods mercy he will stop the sun and moon over Israel forming a permanent solar eclipse giving Israel a 200mile spot of shadow. That causes darkness on the seat of the beast in Israel Daniel 11:45 and darkness on his kingdom on the dark side of the earth in North America. Revelation16:10-11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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