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Pre Trib Rapture and Luke 21:20-24?

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Thanks.  I will try to go a bit further.

Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophetstand in the holy place,(whoso readeth, let him understand:)

The Jewish Christians would have understood.  But I am sure they would not have understood it to be in the far future, they would have read Daniel and understood.

 Dan 11:28  Then shall he (Antiochus Epiphanes) return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land. 29  At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30  For the ships of Chittim (Cyprus, The Roman fleet was based there.) shall come against him:  (Antiochus invaded Egypt, but the Roman fleet came and their general, whose name escapes me at the moment, met him and drew a line in the sand, and challenged him to step over it.)  therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: (this is when he sacrificed a hog on the altar) so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31  And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (They must refer to the Romans as Antiochus was not a "they" but a "he" )  Remember that THE abomination of desolation was still future when Jesus gave the prophecy.  THE, singular, there was only one.  So Luke quite rightly understands it as the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem.

 

From what I recall in history...working from memory here...I would probably agree with what you've said above. With that said, do you believe that the "abomination that maketh desolate" of Daniel 11:31 and "the abomination that maketh desolate" of Daniel 12:11 are the same event?

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From what I recall in history...working from memory here...I would probably agree with what you've said above. With that said, do you believe that the "abomination that maketh desolate" of Daniel 11:31 and "the abomination that maketh desolate" of Daniel 12:11 are the same event?

Yes there is only one and it was still future when Jesus said "When you see THE  abomination of desolation  spoken of by Daniel the prophet, "  

Yes it is the same.

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Concerning the contextual flow of thought in Luke 21:5-36
By Pastor Scott Markle
(www.shepherdingtheflock.com)

1.  Luke 21:5-6

In response to some who were praising the physical glory of the temple, the Lord prophesied concerning the destruction of the temple, as follows:

And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

2.  Luke 21:7

The disciples ask the Lord some questions in relation to His prophetic utterance concerning the destruction of the temple, as follows:

And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be?  And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Concerning these questions, it is of value also to consider the parallel passages in Matthew and Mark, as follows:

Matthew 24:3 – “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?  And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mark 13:3-4 – “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

By considering all three of these passages together, we understand that the disciples asked the Lord concerning four things – (1) when the temple would be destroyed, (2) the sign for the fulfillment of the temple’s destruction, (3) the sign for the Lord’s coming, and (4) the sign for “the end of the world.”  By the manner in which the questioning concerning a “sign” was presented, it appears that the disciples may have believed in their thinking that the destruction of the temple, the coming of the Lord, and the end of the world would occur as a unit of events.  However, in His answer to these questions, the Lord does present these things as a unit of events, but as separate events at different times.

3.  Luke 21:8-9

The Lord begins his answer to these questions with a two-fold warning, first that they take heed not to be deceived by false christs and second that they not be terrified by current events of “wars and commotions,” as follows:

And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.  But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.”

Furthermore, within this warning the Lord provided two time references, even as the disciples had asked concerning the “when.”  These two time references are found in the two phrases, “and the time draweth near” and “for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.”  Concerning the first of these phrases, the question might be asked – “The time for what is drawing near?”  Since both of these phrases concerning time are located in the same context, it would seem reasonable to draw the answer for our above question from the second phrase concerning time.  The time matter referenced in the second phrase is that of “the end.”  Even so, we would understand that the events mentioned in these two verses indicate that “the end” would be drawing near, but would not yet be present.

4.  Luke 21:10-11

Herein the Lord expands upon the phrase, “wars and commotions,” from His previous statement, as follows:

Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.”

Now, the concluding statement of this passage is of special note – “And fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven;” for it will be significant for consideration and understanding later in the entire context.

5.  Luke 21:12-19

Herein the Lord begins with another time element, opening the statement of verse with the following phrase, “But before all these things.”  With this phrase the Lord indicates that some of that which follows in His presentation would occur prior in time to that which He has already presented in Luke 21:8-11.  So then, how far in that which follows in the Lord’s presentation does this “before” time element extend?  At the least, it extends from verse 12 to verse 19; for that passage presents a unit of truth, as follows:

But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.  And it shall turn to you for a testimony.  Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.  And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake.  But there shall not an hair of your head perish.  In your patience possess ye your souls.”

6.  Luke 21:20-24

With this passage the question must be considered – Are the events that are presented in this passage to be included within the “before these things” element of time with which the Lord began Luke 21:12?  In order to answer this question, we must consider the statement with which the Lord begins Luke 21:25 – “And there shall be signs in the sin, and in the moon, and in the stars.”  Since this statement with which our Lord begins Luke 21:25 is so closely related to the statement with which He ended Luke 21:11 (that is – “And fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven”), it appears contextually that the Lord is picking up in verse 25 where He had left off in verse 11.  Even so, Luke 21:20-24 would indeed be included within the “before these things” element of time with which the Lord began Luke 21:12.

In Luke 21:20 the Lord provides His answer to the disciples’ question concerning the sign for the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem (which according to historical record occurred in 70 AD through the armies of Rome), as follows:

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”

Furthermore, in Luke 21:21 the Lord delivers a three-fold concerning the city of Jerusalem to those Israelites who are alive at that time, as follows:

Then [1] let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and [2] let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and [3] let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.”

Then in Luke 21:22-23 the Lord reveals that this destruction of Jerusalem and the resulting distress upon the people of Israel is due to the Lord God’s wrath and vengeance upon them for their sinful rebellion against Him and their stubborn rejection of His Savior, as follows:

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days!  For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.”

Finally, in Luke 21:24 the Lord indicates a three-fold result of distress that will come against the people of Israel, as follows:

And [1] they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and [2] shall be led away captive into all nations: and [3] Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Herein also the Lord concludes with yet another element of time in the phrase, “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”  This phrase indicates that the Lord God’s judgment against the people of Israel, such that they will be scattered among all the Gentile nations of the world and such that their city of Jerusalem will be trodden down under the power of the Gentiles, shall continue until the fulfillment of “the times of the Gentiles.”

7.  Luke 21:25-26

Herein the Lord speaks concerning events that will occur as “the times of the Gentiles” comes to its fulfillment.  Furthermore, in this passage the Lord picks up where He had left off at the end of Luke 21:11.  There He had concluded, “And fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.”  Then in Luke 21:12-24 spoke concerning things that would occur “before” those things.  Now in Luke 21:25-26 the Lord reengages His message from the end of verse 11 concerning the signs of the heavens, as follows:

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.”

8.  Luke 21:27-28

Herein the Lord speaks concerning the matter of His coming, and thereby provides His answer to the question that the disciples’ had asked concerning the sign of His coming (as per the parallel passage of Matthew 24:3).  Indeed, the Lord indicates that His coming will follow after the signs in the sun, moon, and stars, wherein “the powers of heaven shall be shaken.”  Furthermore, the Lord indicates that His coming shall be “in a cloud with power and great glory,” such that the people of the earth will see Him in His power and glory, as follows:

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

Finally, the Lord indicates that the signs of His coming will be those very signs in the sun, moon, and stars, whereby His people are to “look up” with anticipation and to be assured of their full redemption in His coming, as follows:

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”

9.  Luke 21:29-31

Herein the Lord presents a parable concerning the signs of the fig tree in order to encourage His people concerning the observation of the signs for His coming, as follows:

And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; when they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.”

Furthermore, the Lord indicates that when His people see the signs in the sun, moon, and stars, they are also to recognize that “the kingdom of God” will be initiated with His coming.  Even so, from Luke 21:2-31 we learn five truths concerning our Lord’s coming, as follows:

1.  His coming will follow after the signs in the sun, moon, and stars.
2.  His coming will be observed by the people of the earth.
3.  His coming will be “in a cloud with power and great glory.”
4.  His coming will result in the full redemption of His people.
5.  His coming will initiate “the kingdom of God” upon the earth.

10.  Luke 21:32-33

Herein the Lord declares that “this generation,” the generation to which He was referring in that context, would not pass until the fulfillment of His coming, as follows:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.  Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”

Now, the word “this” is a demonstrative pronoun that serves a means to verbally point at an individual(s) or a thing(s).  In this context the Lord employed this demonstrative pronoun in order to verbally point at a particular “generation.”  However, the demonstrative pronoun “this” does not necessary indicate that the Lord was verbally pointing at the generation of His audience; for the demonstrative pronoun can also be employed in order to verbally point at an element of the context.  Even so, in the immediate context of Luke 21:32, there is a particular generation referenced.  It is the generation of God’s people that shall see “the sings in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars,” such that “the powers of heaven shall be shaken.”  As such, it is “this generation” of God’s people that “shall not pass away” until the coming of the Lord is fulfilled, until their full redemption is fulfilled, and until “the kingdom of God” is initiated upon the earth.

11.  Luke 21:34-36

The Lord concludes His message with an exhortation unto His people ever to remain spiritually watchful, prayerful, and faithful, as follows:

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.  For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

 

'This generation' means the generation he was addressing as in Matt 23:36.  Doubters of the word have often tried to make it mean something different. For instance Scofield says this generation in Matt 23 refers to the generation then living but in Matt 24 says it means "race, kind, family, stock, breed"  Just take it literally as the generation he was addressing and you won't go wrong.

Edited by Invicta
spacing

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'This generation' means the generation he was addressing as in Matt 23:36.  Doubters of the word have often tried to make it mean something different. For instance Scofield says this generation in Matt 23 refers to the generation then living but in Matt 24 says it means "race, kind, family, stock, breed"  Just take it literally as the generation he was addressing and you won't go wrong.

Brother Invicta,

I cannot "just take it" . . . "as the generation he was addressing," since the demonstrative pronoun "this" grammatically and literally can either (1) be a verbal means of pointing at an individual or thing in the context of the physical setting, or (2) be a verbal means of pointing at an individual or thing in the context of the communicated message.  I cannot just arbitrarily take one of these options and arbitrarily exclude the other option.  Rather, I must examine the contextual flow of thought in order to discern which of these two options is valid in this particular context.

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From the "This Generation" thread -

Brethren

MountainChristian is correct in every point that he mentioned. And, spefically, the point, number 4. His interpretation of "this generation," as quoted below is the only possible interpretation.  

"4. Future people, worst judgment of all times – Matthew 24, When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolationMark 13:14-37Luke 21:25-28 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:29-36. "

Any other interpretation is a private interpretation. 2 Peter 2:20 and 21

 

While it is open for discussion as to whether Jesus is referring to his second coming for resurrection & judgment in some of the details, or to the terrible events of AD 70, there is no Scriptural justification for interpreting "this generation" of Jesus denunciations to be any other generation than the people he was referring to, who rejected him so vehemently. 

e.g. Mat. 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Many have claimed to be the Messiah (or Muslim Madhi, etc) but Jesus makes it absolutely clear there will be no mistaking his coming - like lightning. He is not there saying that he would come like lightning as one of the signs prior  to the prophesied destruction. 

The primary question following Jesus' prophecy was "When?" He gives detailed signs as to when to flee the city, which we understand from the history of the time enabled the Christians to escape the destruction. Then he gives the answer - before this generation passed. The destruction of Jerusalem occurred before all of this generation passed as prophesied.  

Any other interpretation is a rejection of the clear words of the Lord Jesus Christ. 

Mat. 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

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From the "This Generation" thread -

While it is open for discussion as to whether Jesus is referring to his second coming for resurrection & judgment in some of the details, or to the terrible events of AD 70, there is no Scriptural justification for interpreting "this generation" of Jesus denunciations to be any other generation than the people he was referring to, who rejected him so vehemently. 

e.g. Mat. 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Many have claimed to be the Messiah (or Muslim Madhi, etc) but Jesus makes it absolutely clear there will be no mistaking his coming - like lightning. He is not there saying that he would come like lightning as one of the signs prior  to the prophesied destruction. 

The primary question following Jesus' prophecy was "When?" He gives detailed signs as to when to flee the city, which we understand from the history of the time enabled the Christians to escape the destruction. Then he gives the answer - before this generation passed. The destruction of Jerusalem occurred before all of this generation passed as prophesied.  

Any other interpretation is a rejection of the clear words of the Lord Jesus Christ. 

Mat. 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

Except that when we join the three parallel passages of Matthew 24:3; Mark 13:3-4; and Luke 21:7, we understand that the disciples asked four questions of the Lord (not just the one that you emphasized above).

Matthew 24:3 – “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?  And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mark 13:3-4 – “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luke 21:7 -- “And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be?  And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

These four questions are as follows:

1.  "When shall these things be?" (that is -- the things concerning the destruction of the temple that the Lord had just mentioned)
2.  "And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?" (that is -- the things concerning the destruction of the temple that the Lord had just mentioned)
3.  "And what shall be the sign of thy coming?"
4.  "And what shall be the sign . . . of the end of the world?"

So then, within the information that the Lord provides in His answer, we would expect information concerning all four of these questions (not just the one that you emphasized above).

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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Except that when we join the three parallel passages of Matthew 24:3; Mark 13:3-4; and Luke 21:7, we understand that the disciples asked four questions of the Lord (not just the one that you emphasized above).

Matthew 24:3 – “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?  And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mark 13:3-4 – “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luke 21:7 -- “And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be?  And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

These four questions are as follows:

1.  "When shall these things be?" (that is -- the things concerning the destruction of the temple that the Lord had just mentioned)
2.  "And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?" (that is -- the things concerning the destruction of the temple that the Lord had just mentioned)
3.  "And what shall be the sign of thy coming?"
4.  "And what shall be the sign . . . of the end of the world?"

So then, within the information that the Lord provides in His answer, we would expect information concerning all four of these questions (not just the one that you emphasized above).

No there are only two questions.

The first two you list are one question and the second two are one question put in different ways.

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Except that when we join the three parallel passages of Matthew 24:3; Mark 13:3-4; and Luke 21:7, we understand that the disciples asked four questions of the Lord (not just the one that you emphasized above).

Matthew 24:3 – “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?  And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mark 13:3-4 – “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luke 21:7 -- “And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be?  And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

These four questions are as follows:

1.  "When shall these things be?" (that is -- the things concerning the destruction of the temple that the Lord had just mentioned)
2.  "And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?" (that is -- the things concerning the destruction of the temple that the Lord had just mentioned)
3.  "And what shall be the sign of thy coming?"
4.  "And what shall be the sign . . . of the end of the world?"

So then, within the information that the Lord provides in His answer, we would expect information concerning all four of these questions (not just the one that you emphasized above).

The fact that 4 questions were asked does not mean they knew exactly what they were asking - they were asking according to their understanding, which at that time was not inspired. We know that they did not understand about his imminent arrest, crucifixion, death & resurrection, so what did they understand about his coming & the end of the world?  

Did they think that the destruction would be the end of the world? And that it would take place at his coming? How did his prophecy of the destruction tie in with his previous teaching regarding the temple & temple worship?  e.g. John 2:13-22  John 4:21-24  

He taught about his coming a few days before - Mat. 21:40-43 - a coming that would destroy his enemies. Peter wrote about that coming in his second letter - and the scoffers who were using the longsuffering of God as a reason for their scoffing. 2 Peter 3. In his answer, Peter refers to the flood judgement & the final day of the Lord - the end of the planet, not of the temple & the Jewish rebels. Answers do get linked, & need to be sorted out using the complete Scriptures. 

Matthew uses 3 different Gk words for "world" -  in Mat. 24:3 - aion, Mat. 24:14 - oikoumene, Mat. 24:21 - kosmos. We need to look carefully at these Scriptures to see the significance. (In a future post.)

The questions:

1.  "When shall these things be?" (that is -- the things concerning the destruction of the temple that the Lord had just mentioned)
2.  "And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?" (that is -- the things concerning the destruction of the temple that the Lord had just mentioned)
3.  "And what shall be the sign of thy coming?"
4.  "And what shall be the sign . . . of the end of the world?"

1. When? Before the passing of this generation.

2. Signs - when to flee the city? When you see the abomination that Luke explains as the Roman armies. A lot of the "signs" Jesus gives are of events that will happen that should NOT be taken as signs related to the events he has prophesied. e.g. Mat. 24:6-12 

3. Sign of Jesus coming? No warning signs, but no mistaking it - like a flash of lightning - everyone will know he has come for resurrection & judgment. Mat. 13:36-43  John 5:27-29 1 Cor. 15:50-54  1 Thes. 5:1-4  2 Thes. 1:7-10 

4. Signs of the end of the world? No warning signs - be faithful & ready. Mat. 24:35-44

 

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Except that when we join the three parallel passages of Matthew 24:3; Mark 13:3-4; and Luke 21:7, we understand that the disciples asked four questions of the Lord (not just the one that you emphasized above).

Matthew 24:3 – “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?  And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mark 13:3-4 – “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luke 21:7 -- “And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be?  And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

These four questions are as follows:

1.  "When shall these things be?" (that is -- the things concerning the destruction of the temple that the Lord had just mentioned)
2.  "And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?" (that is -- the things concerning the destruction of the temple that the Lord had just mentioned)
3.  "And what shall be the sign of thy coming?"
4.  "And what shall be the sign . . . of the end of the world?"

So then, within the information that the Lord provides in His answer, we would expect information concerning all four of these questions (not just the one that you emphasized above).

No there are only two questions.

The first two you list are one question and the second two are one question put in different ways.

Well, if you intend to push that thought, I would simply push back as follows:

Ok, so the disciples only asked two questions; however, both questions were compound questions, containing two parts each.  Thus the layout of the questions would be two main points with two sub-points each.  Now, since 2 x 2 = 4, in their two questions the disciples were asking concerning four aspects of information.  Furthermore, by this "two main points with two sub-points" layout, we can also discern that the first two aspects of information about which the disciples were asking were certainly related to each other, and that the second two aspects of information about which the disciples were asking were also related to each other (at least in the thinking of the disciples themselves).  Finally, by this "two main points with two sub-points" layout, we can discern that the two main point (that is -- the two main categories of question) are distinctly separate from each other.  As such, our layout would be as follows:

1.  First category of questioning (concerning the destruction of the temple that the Lord had just mentioned)

     A.  "When shall these things be?"

     B.  "And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"

2.  Second category of questioning (concerning the Lord's coming and the end of the world, which the disciples appear to join together in their thinking)

     A.  "And what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

     B.  "And what shall be the sign . . . of the end of the world?"

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     A.  "When shall these things be?"

     B.  "And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"

2.  Second category of questioning (concerning the Lord's coming and the end of the world, which the disciples appear to join together in their thinking)

     A.  "And what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

     B.  "And what shall be the sign . . . of the end of the world?"

Answer to

A, Before that generation passed away. 

B. When you see the Abomination of Desolation, that is Jerusalem surrounded by armies.  "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

Answer to 2 A. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

2. B.  I am not sure that was answered separately from the previous answer.

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Brother Day and Brother "Invicta,"

For a better understanding of your respective positions on this matter, I wish to ask a question --

Do you believe (each, respectively) that all of the events which were included in our Lord's prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:4-35; Mark 13:5-31; Luke 21:8-33 were to be fulfilled before the generation (viewing a generation as approximately 80 years???) to which the Lord was speaking would pass away?

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Ian replies: 

There was a discussion around Mat. 24 in a "Partial Preterism" thread where both Invicta & I responded. The basic answer is "Yes" with qualifying interpretation, For instance, the coming as lightning means that all the spurious claims are just that - spurious. Jesus second coming at the end of time will be a world-wide visible event, not a secret rapture, like a lightning flash everywhere. Also, in the run-up to AD 70, the wicked will see without perceiving, & hear without understanding. Isaiah 6:10  John 12:38-41  Acts 28:24-29  

A Scriptural generation is 40 years - the priests took office at 30, left office at 50, or in some cases until death & the typical lifespan was 70 years.  Num. 4:3  Num. 14:43  Psalm 90:10  Psalm 95:10  Heb. 3:7-19  Jesus began his ministry at 30 & John did also. 

However the adults from 20 years & upwards would die in the wilderness. Num. 14:29 

Forty years would cover the time from the rejection to the destruction. 

 

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Ian

It doesn't suggest that it would be 40 years, but within 40 years

Brother Day and Brother "Invicta,"

For a better understanding of your respective positions on this matter, I wish to ask a question --

Do you believe (each, respectively) that all of the events which were included in our Lord's prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:4-35; Mark 13:5-31; Luke 21:8-33 were to be fulfilled before the generation (viewing a generation as approximately 80 years???) to which the Lord was speaking would pass away?

No.  The answer to the first question, "When shall these things be?" were fulfilled within that generation.  The answer to the second question "And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"  (which incidentally had nothing to do with Jesus' original statement, " See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. ") are still to be fulfilled.  The answers are separated with "BUT" verse 36.

 

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Ian

It doesn't suggest that it would be 40 years, but within 40 years

No.  The answer to the first question, "When shall these things be?" were fulfilled within that generation.  The answer to the second question "And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"  (which incidentally had nothing to do with Jesus' original statement, " See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. ") are still to be fulfilled.  The answers are separated with "BUT" verse 36.

 

If I'm correctly understanding this, then that's along the lines of how our pastor preaches on this.

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If they was the same age as Jesus, they would of been 70 years old when the city and temple fell. Think how old the men would of been that judged Jesus, because they picked the oldest men to be judges. The people who said let his blood be on us, would have been grand and great grand parents by the time of the fall, most would probably been dead. I had not really thought about this before. If we use Jesus age of 33 then the next generation would of come into being in 66AD. So by 69AD the next generation would have to load great grandpa/ma on a cart and gently flee the city. 

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If they was the same age as Jesus, they would of been 70 years old when the city and temple fell. Think how old the men would of been that judged Jesus, because they picked the oldest men to be judges. The people who said let his blood be on us, would have been grand and great grand parents by the time of the fall, most would probably been dead. I had not really thought about this before. If we use Jesus age of 33 then the next generation would of come into being in 66AD. So by 69AD the next generation would have to load great grandpa/ma on a cart and gently flee the city. 

Josephus tells us that all those high priests were murdered by the civil war going on in Jerusalem while the siege was going on.

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There was a discussion around Mat. 24 in a "Partial Preterism" thread where both Invicta & I responded. The basic answer is "Yes" with qualifying interpretation, For instance, the coming as lightning means that all the spurious claims are just that - spurious. Jesus second coming at the end of time will be a world-wide visible event, not a secret rapture, like a lightning flash everywhere. Also, in the run-up to AD 70, the wicked will see without perceiving, & hear without understanding. Isaiah 6:10  John 12:38-41  Acts 28:24-29  

A Scriptural generation is 40 years - the priests took office at 30, left office at 50, or in some cases until death & the typical lifespan was 70 years.  Num. 4:3  Num. 14:43  Psalm 90:10  Psalm 95:10  Heb. 3:7-19  Jesus began his ministry at 30 & John did also. 

However the adults from 20 years & upwards would die in the wilderness. Num. 14:29 

Forty years would cover the time from the rejection to the destruction. 

 

No.  The answer to the first question, "When shall these things be?" were fulfilled within that generation.  The answer to the second question "And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"  (which incidentally had nothing to do with Jesus' original statement, " See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. ") are still to be fulfilled.  The answers are separated with "BUT" verse 36.

Ok, now I am a little bit confused.

Brother "Invicta," your answer seems fairly clear.  If I am understanding correctly, you would hold that the disciples' first compound question (1a. "When shall these things be?" 1b. "And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?") was to be fulfilled before the "this generation" to which the Lord was speaking at that time would pass.  Furthermore, if I am understanding correctly, you would hold that the disciples' second compound question (2a. "And what shall be the sign of thy coming?" 2b. "And of the end of the world?") was to be fulfilled sometime in the future of the "this generation" to which the Lord was speaking at that time (that concerning this second compound question was our Lord's statement in Matthew 24:37 - "But of that day and hour knoweth no  man . . .").  Would you please confirm that I am understanding correctly?

On the other hand, Brother Day, your answer has me confused.  Your answer appears to be indicating that you hold that yes, all of the prophetic utterances of these passages were to be fulfilled before the "this generation" to which the Lord was speaking at that time would pass.  Yet then you delivered a "like" to Brother "Invicta's" answer, which seems to be different than your answer.  Brother Day, could you make your answer more clear?

 

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Ok, now I am a little bit confused.

Brother "Invicta," your answer seems fairly clear.  If I am understanding correctly, you would hold that the disciples' first compound question (1a. "When shall these things be?" 1b. "And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?") was to be fulfilled before the "this generation" to which the Lord was speaking at that time would pass.  Furthermore, if I am understanding correctly, you would hold that the disciples' second compound question (2a. "And what shall be the sign of thy coming?" 2b. "And of the end of the world?") was to be fulfilled sometime in the future of the "this generation" to which the Lord was speaking at that time (that concerning this second compound question was our Lord's statement in Matthew 24:37 - "But of that day and hour knoweth no  man . . .").  Would you please confirm that I am understanding correctly?

 Yes Brother Scott

That is what I mean.

 

 

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Ok, now I am a little bit confused.

Brother "Invicta," your answer seems fairly clear.  If I am understanding correctly, you would hold that the disciples' first compound question (1a. "When shall these things be?" 1b. "And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?") was to be fulfilled before the "this generation" to which the Lord was speaking at that time would pass.  Furthermore, if I am understanding correctly, you would hold that the disciples' second compound question (2a. "And what shall be the sign of thy coming?" 2b. "And of the end of the world?") was to be fulfilled sometime in the future of the "this generation" to which the Lord was speaking at that time (that concerning this second compound question was our Lord's statement in Matthew 24:37 - "But of that day and hour knoweth no  man . . .").  Would you please confirm that I am understanding correctly?

On the other hand, Brother Day, your answer has me confused.  Your answer appears to be indicating that you hold that yes, all of the prophetic utterances of these passages were to be fulfilled before the "this generation" to which the Lord was speaking at that time would pass.  Yet then you delivered a "like" to Brother "Invicta's" answer, which seems to be different than your answer.  Brother Day, could you make your answer more clear?

 

Please read again my post of July 17. I understand a dividing point between this generation passing (AD 70) & his further prophecy about heaven & earth passing. You saw my understanding of the Mat. 24 prophecy when you referred to the link to the Partial Preterism thread.

Non-futurists often understand the Olivet prophecy as including references to the future history of the church (corresponding to the "historicist" interpretation of Revelation. I understand Invicta holds to that view, which still sees the thrust of the Olivet prophecy as referring to AD 70 & the warning signs relating to that. The Reformers saw the Papacy as a prime subject of Revelation. 

The passage open to question is:

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

 There is room for disagreement. That may refer to the end of the times of the Gentiles - the end of the church age. What we must agree on is the final section of the prophecy, where Jesus calls on all of us to watch & pray:

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and sothat day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

There is no agreement with those who see the prophesied destruction as yet future - a future 70th week fulfilment after the supposed rapture. 

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