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Pre Trib Rapture and Luke 21:20-24?


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So I have a question concerning Luke 21:20-24 and pre-trib Rapture view.

20)  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.   21)  Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not then that are in the countries enter thereinto.  22)  For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.   23)  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land; and wrath upon this people.  24)  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled.      Luke 21:20-24 

So if verse 24 is speaking of the pre-told future how will the Jews from Jerusalem be led away captive in all nations for just a short time before Jesus coming to Rapture the Church?

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It did happen - in AD 70.

Yes I agree, but I know that IFB follow the Bible as closely as anybody else, and hoping to be corrected if i am wrong about this, it is probably the only reason i am not in their church, but that may be my mistake, because the Independent Baptist are very if not the strongest group I have seen at being witnessed to the World.  Which is the Great Commission given to the Church.

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Well, I certainly can't speak for all IFBs, but I view the prophecy as what I personally call a "progressive prophecy"...in other words, though all of it was future when the Lord spoke those words, some elements of the prophecy would happen at different times. What started the prophecy was the disciples admiration of the temple, and the Lord told them that not one stone would be left on top of another. That happened in 70 AD, as did other portions. However, there are parts of the prophecy that didn't happen in 70 AD; therefore, it (the entire prophecy) can't be attributed to 70 AD. When taking the prophecy as a whole (along with the other accounts of the prophecy in Matthew and Mark), the events recorded lead to the culmination of the Lord's return at the end of the great tribulation.

I would agree that the verse in question referred to the events of 70 AD, but I don't attribute 70 AD as being the fulfillment of everything recorded in the entire prophecy.

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Brethren,

Luke 21:20-24 is not, may I repeat, not, talking about 70 A.D. when Titus destroyed Jerusalem.

The Lord Jesus continued His discussion in Luke 21:25 38: none, may I repeat none, of the events of verse 25-38 took place at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D.

The only reason why this is taught as a prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D. is due to the unbelief in the literal fulfillment of the latter part of the teaching of the Lord Jesus in Luke 21:25-38 in the tribulation period. The seperation of Luke 21:20-24 from the rest of Luke 21:25-38 is a gross miss-application of scripture.

The belief that Luke 21:20-24 as a discourse of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. is definately not scriptural and the vast majority of independent Baptist pastors do not believe in this gross distortion of scripture.

 

Edited by Alan
revise
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If we are talking only about the passage mentioned above (that is -- Luke 21:20-24), and not at all about the portion of the prophecy that continues thereafter (that is -- Luke 21:25-28), then I would agree that the reference therein to the destruction of Jerusalem is that of 70 AD by the armies of Rome.  Furthermore, I would contend that this portion of the prophecy (only Luke 21:20-24) extends from that destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD until the fulfillment of "the times of the Gentiles" (as stated at the end of Luke 21:24).  Finally, I would contend that this fulfillment of "the times of the Gentiles" is that which signals the timing for the remainder of the prophecy as presented in Luke 21:25-28 (which fits well with my understanding of Romans 11:25-27, as presented here, here, and here).

As such, I would agree with Brother Dan McWhorter ("No Nicolaitans") above, and would have to disagree on this one with Brother Alan above.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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Brethren,

Permit me to respond.

I do heartily agree with Pastor Markle that a portion, a small portion, of this discourse was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, including the Temple, in 70 A. D. Also, that the "times of the Gentiles," did indeed start at the destruction of the Jerusalem in 70 A. D. and fits into the proper understanding of Romans 11:25-27.

My initial response, and this response, is to more thoroughly answer 19DruggerFan initial question and to disprove the response by Covenanter

Covenanter stated, and is trying to prove, that Luke 21:20-24 is only referring to the the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and that the discourse of the Lord Jesus is therefore historical and not prophetical for the Jewish nation as described in the book of Revelation. This belief is in error. 

The following is in response to the initial question  and to disprove that Luke 21:20-24 is referring only to  the destruction of the Temple, and Jerusalem, in 70 A.D.

In verse 6 the Lord Jesus plainly states that the Temple then standing would be destroyed. The destruction of the Temple did occur in 70 A.D. That is an historical fact.

May I bring out five items.

1. Please remember, that the Lord Jesus is answering two questions that the disciples asked Him in verse 7.

    Question # 1. "... but when shall these things be." This was referring to the destruction of the Temple. And, as it was brought out by Brother Dan and Pastor Markle, only part of the passage, not all of the passage, was referring to the destruction of the Temple which did occur in 70 A. D. The teaching that this whole discourse in referring to question # 1 is not correct biblical exegesis.

    Question # 2.  "... and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass." The vast majority of the discourse of the Lord Jesus is in answer to this question.    

2. The context of the prophecy of Luke 21:20-24 is definutely correlated to Luke 21:25-38.  To take one portion out, Luke 21:20-24 and not relate it to Luke 21: 25-38, nor the previous section, Luke 21:8-19,  in my estimation, is taking Luke 21:20-14 out of context is not proper biblical exegesis. This improper biblical exegesis is taught to try and  prove that the destruction of Jerusalem in the book of Revelation is just historical and not prophetical. 

3. In Luke 21:22, the Lord Jesus plainly stated, "For these be the days of vengenance, that all things which are written be fulfilled."

This prophecy was not fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. in any fashion. This prophecy of the Lord Jesus will be fulfilled in the events as described in the book of Revelation.

4. "... all things which are written be fulfilled." The destruction of Jerusalem, and the Temple, in 70 A.D. does not fulfill this prophecy of the Lord Jesus. All of the prophecies in the Old Testament were not fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D. But, all of the prophesies of the Old Testament prophets will be fulfilled, as recorded, in the book of Revelation.

5. If you carefully read the context of the whole teaching of the Lord Jesus in Luke 21 it seems obvious that the events in Luke 21:8-19 were not fulfulled.  The events the Lord Jesus spoke of in Luke 21:8-19 are to be literally fulfilled in the book of Revelation.

Thank you for your kind attention and consideration.

Alan

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19DuggarFan,

The companion passage of Luke 21:20-24 is found in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. Although in Matthew 24 there are three questions asked. Therefore, there is more detailed information involved. 

And, you made the following statement, "So if verse 24 is speaking of the pre-told future how will the Jews from Jerusalem be led away captive in all nations for just a short time before Jesus coming to Rapture the Church?" The obvious answer is that the nation of Israel was not led away captive in all the nations for a short period of time. And, the rapture is still future. Luke 21:24, "... until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." The times of the Gentiles being fulfilled occurs in the Book of Revelation; not in 70 A.D. as Covenanter stated. 

In my Revelation chapter 19-22 study I expounded on the subject of the Rapture in a few of the posts, and a couple of the pertinent passages in the Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24 & 25, a few times.  If you would like to further study this subject here is the link to the Revelation study: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23115-revelation-chapter-19-22-study/?page=1

I hope this information helps as you study the issue. Due to the Revelation thread being locked (for the time being), you cannot reply in that thread, but you may either reply in this thread or another thread if applicable, or start your own thread. Either way, it would be a blessing to discuss the future events of the scripture with you.

Alan

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19DuggarFan,

The companion passage of Luke 21:20-24 is found in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. Although in Matthew 24 there are three questions asked. Therefore, there is more detailed information involved. 

And, you made the following statement, "So if verse 24 is speaking of the pre-told future how will the Jews from Jerusalem be led away captive in all nations for just a short time before Jesus coming to Rapture the Church?" The obvious answer is that the nation of Israel was not led away captive in all the nations for a short period of time. And, the rapture is still future. Luke 21:24, "... until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." The times of the Gentiles being fulfilled occurs in the Book of Revelation; not in 70 A.D. as Covenanter stated. 

In my Revelation chapter 19-22 study I expounded on the subject of the Rapture in a few of the posts, and a couple of the pertinent passages in the Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24 & 25, a few times.  If you would like to further study this subject here is the link to the Revelation study: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23115-revelation-chapter-19-22-study/?page=1

I hope this information helps as you study the issue. Due to the Revelation thread being locked (for the time being), you cannot reply in that thread, but you may either reply in this thread or another thread if applicable, or start your own thread. Either way, it would be a blessing to discuss the future events of the scripture with you.

Alan

The times of the gentiles was to be fulfilled when the Jews returned to the land and when Gentile rule over the land ended.  I believe this began to be fulfilled in 1917 when Allenby led his horse into Jerusalem ending Ottoman rule over the city.

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The times of the gentiles was to be fulfilled when the Jews returned to the land and when Gentile rule over the land ended.  I believe this began to be fulfilled in 1917 when Allenby led his horse into Jerusalem ending Ottoman rule over the city.

How could that be when Gentiles were still ruling the land, including Jerusalem? Gentiles still rule much of the Promised Land and Gentiles continue to bear rule over Jerusalem even tho that city is now within modern Israel.

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Daniel 8:13,14 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

You men believe this was fulfilled when Antiochus IV Epiphanes took over the temple? 1900+ years would element our current time, and you don't see this happening in the future? 

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How could that be when Gentiles were still ruling the land, including Jerusalem? Gentiles still rule much of the Promised Land and Gentiles continue to bear rule over Jerusalem even tho that city is now within modern Israel.

The ending was when the Jews returned to their own land.  There is nothing to stop all remaining Jews returning to Israel except comfort in their present home countries.  They are often entreated to return by the Israeli prime minister.

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The ending was when the Jews returned to their own land.  There is nothing to stop all remaining Jews returning to Israel except comfort in their present home countries.  They are often entreated to return by the Israeli prime minister.

The Jews are only on a very tiny portion of their own land. At this point even the land they are on isn't fully under their control and direction. Between American demands, UN dictates and other matters, Gentiles still hold rule directly or indirectly over the tiny slice of Israel the Jews have in their possession as well as the rest of the land not in their possession.

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