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Jordan Kurecki

What is your position on music and why?

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What failed to convince you of this prior to your change on the matter?

What did finally convince you of the need to change your view?

My thoughts originally was that music was amoral and that the only thing that mattered were the lyrics. I was always a big rock fan even before getting saved so I didn't want anyone taking my music away from me.

The first thing I noticed was the fruits of CCM. I often when to CCM concerts. I started to notice the bands on stage promoting Roman Catholicism. I also saw several rock bands go secular and living a non Christian lifestyle once they started getting popular. I would read interviews with CCM artists and see them praising the pope which told me they were either ignorant on what Roman Catholicism teaches or they held to a false gospel themselves. I finally had to admit that the musical beat does affect the flesh. It makes it easier to ignore the lack of good theology in most of the lyrics and to ignore the blatant ecumenism. Now you can see a lot of CCM artists not taking a stand against homosexuality. CCM is a business which several use to make money. Christians should avoid CCM in church and at home.

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According to Psalm 150 and Psalm 33:3 Christian music should be loud, incorporate a variety of instruments and prompt us to dance. That's not what music is played in most of our churches (including mine).

If one chooses to look at the fruit of some of the song writers and performers, we should note that many of our hymns include songs written by "Calvinists", universalists, those who also wrote unchristian secular songs, infant baptizers and others.

Scripture lists the qualifications for pastors and deacons but where is the list of qualifications for a song writer or one who sings (whether solo, in a group or choir)? In many cases I've encountered folks who say they demand a higher standard for those writing a song than they do for those preaching. With the exception of those who wrote hymns they happen to like, then there are excuses why the rules don't apply to them.

Personally, I'm pleased with the music in our church and would likely be pleased with the music in most of your churches as well as they are probably all the same or very similar.

It's weak, poorly put forth and often accusatory manner of addressing music that turns many away from considering the issue. A simple, biblical statement would be much better. If that doesn't have the desired results, adding all sorts of side things and accusations won't help.

Ps 150 and 33:3 have nothing to do with the church in any way, and 150 has nothing to do with temple worship, but personal worship. Only certain instruments were used in the temple work, and only played by, and sung by, certain people in certain ways. It was not raucous or disorderly, nor was it the center of attention-it was played during the sacrifices as sort of accompaniment for the sacrifices, and ended when they ended.  But again, temple worship has nothing to do with Christian worship or praise in the churches. There is not one mention of instruments in NT music, (though I believe this offers freedom, not prohibition), and the only music mentioned is psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, and only twice, one time having to do with the assembly, and that the primary use of it was to teach one another. Music in any for tends to play far too big of a role in churches today, seeing as how little it is mentioned in NT scripture.

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My thoughts originally was that music was amoral and that the only thing that mattered were the lyrics. I was always a big rock fan even before getting saved so I didn't want anyone taking my music away from me.

The first thing I noticed was the fruits of CCM. I often when to CCM concerts. I started to notice the bands on stage promoting Roman Catholicism. I also saw several rock bands go secular and living a non Christian lifestyle once they started getting popular. I would read interviews with CCM artists and see them praising the pope which told me they were either ignorant on what Roman Catholicism teaches or they held to a false gospel themselves. I finally had to admit that the musical beat does affect the flesh. It makes it easier to ignore the lack of good theology in most of the lyrics and to ignore the blatant ecumenism. Now you can see a lot of CCM artists not taking a stand against homosexuality. CCM is a business which several use to make money. Christians should avoid CCM in church and at home.

Thank you for your response.

You first point is something I've encountered with folks before. (Although you didn't really say what was said, done or shown to you that didn't convince you) In any event, (sorry to interrupt again, I just want to be clear the previous parenthesis point was an observation, not a complaint or negative comment) I've known Christians who at the time still listened to secular music and had convinced themselves it was okay. They used the same two word phrase you did above when they would be defensive about listening to secular music as they personalized it as "my music". That right there was something almost impossible to get through: "my music". It wasn't until some time later when the Holy Ghost convicted them and they began to see more clearly they dropped the "my music" stronghold and they spoke of the music as "that music".

I've seen some videos (at least portions) of certain CCM bands in concert so I can understand what you are saying in that regard. While there are a few which try to maintain a decent appearance, it seems most copy the secular band image.

To an extent this may be a point as to why some don't have or see a problem with singing a CCM song in church to a piano or something, because they don't attend concerts, they don't pay any attention to who wrote a song or when it was written. This being the case, they wouldn't encounter the "full" CCM world, and in some cases may not even realize what they are singing is CCM and not simply just another hymn they hadn't heard before. Meanwhile, those more immersed in CCM eventually get a dose of the broader aspects of CCM which if they see a group they like not conducting themselves as they thought they would (with regards to biblical matters) then that could open their eyes to give consideration to things they otherwise may not have thought about.

Thank you for your input!

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Ps 150 and 33:3 have nothing to do with the church in any way, and 150 has nothing to do with temple worship, but personal worship. Only certain instruments were used in the temple work, and only played by, and sung by, certain people in certain ways. It was not raucous or disorderly, nor was it the center of attention-it was played during the sacrifices as sort of accompaniment for the sacrifices, and ended when they ended.  But again, temple worship has nothing to do with Christian worship or praise in the churches. There is not one mention of instruments in NT music, (though I believe this offers freedom, not prohibition), and the only music mentioned is psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, and only twice, one time having to do with the assembly, and that the primary use of it was to teach one another. Music in any for tends to play far too big of a role in churches today, seeing as how little it is mentioned in NT scripture.

I only mentioned those verses because they were introduced above. It was my hope someone would address the aspect you brought up. Mainly because there are some who say if a song shouldn't be played/used in church, then a Christian shouldn't have anything to do with it.

Where do you stand on this? Most agree the Getty song, "In Christ Alone" is a biblically sound hymn. Some accept it as fine in church to sing with a piano, some don't. How about at home or in a persons car? If a person attends a church where they reject that song to be used in the church, are members wrong to listen to the song or sing it at home or in their car or elsewhere?

I fully agree music takes too dominate a position in many churches today. In some churches it's the main attraction and that's totally wrong.

Our pastor was speaking with another pastor he met while waiting somewhere (I don't recall if it was an airport, train station, whatever) and as they talked about their respective church services our pastor mentioned he starts our services with a few brief announcements, if there are any, then an opening prayer, followed by one or two hymns, then a time of prayer for prayer requests and other matters (which takes several minutes)...at this point the other pastor asked our pastor if he was serious. Our pastor was serious, to which the other pastor said he shouldn't do that and advised our pastor to drop that extended prayer time as it interrupts the flow and slows everything down. He also suggested we drop the Bible reading before the sermon for the same reason. Along with that he suggested more music which he said needs to be at the beginning, around the middle and the end. Naturally he suggested "upbeat and happy" music so the congregation would be awake and excited. Thankfully, our pastor pointed out the biblical importance of prayer, Bible reading and a good sermon. The other pastor thought our pastor just didn't get it and said he was afraid our church would wither away quickly. Well, that's how our pastor has run our church for around 35 years now and our membership has grown from about 40 to over 200 even tho we aren't a modern "fun" church.

 

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Our pastor was speaking with another pastor he met while waiting somewhere (I don't recall if it was an airport, train station, whatever) and as they talked about their respective church services our pastor mentioned he starts our services with a few brief announcements, if there are any, then an opening prayer, followed by one or two hymns, then a time of prayer for prayer requests and other matters (which takes several minutes)...at this point the other pastor asked our pastor if he was serious. Our pastor was serious, to which the other pastor said he shouldn't do that and advised our pastor to drop that extended prayer time as it interrupts the flow and slows everything down. He also suggested we drop the Bible reading before the sermon for the same reason. Along with that he suggested more music which he said needs to be at the beginning, around the middle and the end. Naturally he suggested "upbeat and happy" music so the congregation would be awake and excited. Thankfully, our pastor pointed out the biblical importance of prayer, Bible reading and a good sermon. The other pastor thought our pastor just didn't get it and said he was afraid our church would wither away quickly. Well, that's how our pastor has run our church for around 35 years now and our membership has grown from about 40 to over 200 even tho we aren't a modern "fun" church.

Glad to see your Pastor is strong and true to the cause.

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This entire argument is sort of absurd....by it's very nature.

There is no quantifiable delineation of what PRECISELY defines "Contemporary" or "Rock" or "Modern" or any other style of music.

Obviously, we all have a general consensus view of what is being spoken of, but, that's only because we share a similar myopic and socio-cultural mileu.....

NONE of these arguments are fundamentally Biblical or Moral.  They don't speak to Scripture, or anything else.

Where does the band "They might be Giants" fit in?

Here's a spin...how about "Dresden Dolls?"

Precisely which category do they fit into, and what specific quantifiable measures does one use to delineate one style from another?......There IS NO SUCH MEASURE!    Such delineation marks will by default be somewhat arbitrary to each individual.  No one group follows a particular pattern.  Such labels are GENERALLY useful, but there's absolutely no quantitative and objective measure by which to form a cohesive doctrine.

 

There IS no debate here.  There are some who would seek to tell everyone to listen to any and everything...and there are those who would seek to force their preferences upon everyone else with no Biblical justification....

 

And then, there are the sane people, who know that there are two classes of music...

1.) That which is lovely, of good report, glorifying, and edifying 

and

2.) That which is NOT.

 

Only a FOOL thinks that "ROCK" music has devastated society.

 

If you think what you call "ROCK".....is your greatest enemy...that Satan has made and end-run and is 20 yards behind your linebackers...

Satan Doesn't use "Rock music".....He doesn't use "Rap"....He doesn't use "folk".............He uses the most beautiful melodies on the Planet.....Hey IFB's....Grow up and get a CLUE...he uses THIS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwUGSYDKUxU

And all you Slaves are bickering about Altar Boys, Petra, "CCM"  <---(However the heck that's defined)....and NONE of that is the argument.

Satan is OWNING you....and it's with songs like THAT!

Some feckless Independent Baptist is invoking David Cloud and Voodoo Priestesses in order to decree what YOU think I'm allowed to listen to, and meanwhile, Satan has the most powerful Music and the most beautiful melody I've ever heard, and he's destroying your entire society with it.

Yes....That is the most beautiful melody on the planet...and that song is STRAIGHT FROM HELL....

 

And Jordan is invoking the wisdom of Voodoo to speak against those veritable demons Chris Tomlin and Hillsong....

You're my hero, buddy, God knows where Christianity would be without you and your voodoo wisdom looking out for us....

What an absurd and stupid conversation you are having.

Edited by Heir of Salvation

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"Imagine there's no Heaven, it's easy of you try......" Really Bro?

The Devil can use pretty music along with profane, lying words just like he can use seemingly good "doctrine" in a heavy metal rock. song

Rock music was not born in churches "making melody in their hearts unto the Lord"; it was hatched in the bars, the jungles, the wild parties and rock concerts surrounded by lewdness, liquor and drugs: it is of the World. The Bible says not to be conformed to this world.....

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This entire argument is sort of absurd....by it's very nature.

There is no quantifiable delineation of what PRECISELY defines "Contemporary" or "Rock" or "Modern" or any other style of music.

Obviously, we all have a general consensus view of what is being spoken of, but, that's only because we share a similar myopic and socio-cultural mileu.....

NONE of these arguments are fundamentally Biblical or Moral.  They don't speak to Scripture, or anything else.

Where does the band "They might be Giants" fit in?

Here's a spin...how about "Dresden Dolls?"

Precisely which category do they fit into, and what specific quantifiable measures does one use to delineate one style from another?......There IS NO SUCH MEASURE!    Such delineation marks will by default be somewhat arbitrary to each individual.  No one group follows a particular pattern.  Such labels are GENERALLY useful, but there's absolutely no quantitative and objective measure by which to form a cohesive doctrine.

 

There IS no debate here.  There are some who would seek to tell everyone to listen to any and everything...and there are those who would seek to force their preferences upon everyone else with no Biblical justification....

 

And then, there are the sane people, who know that there are two classes of music...

1.) That which is lovely, of good report, glorifying, and edifying 

and

2.) That which is NOT.

 

Only a FOOL thinks that "ROCK" music has devastated society.

 

If you think what you call "ROCK".....is your greatest enemy...that Satan has made and end-run and is 20 yards behind your linebackers...

Satan Doesn't use "Rock music".....He doesn't use "Rap"....He doesn't use "folk".............He uses the most beautiful melodies on the Planet.....Hey IFB's....Grow up and get a CLUE...he uses THIS

And all you Slaves are bickering about Altar Boys, Petra, "CCM"  <---(However the heck that's defined)....and NONE of that is the argument.

Satan is OWNING you....and it's with songs like THAT!

Some feckless Independent Baptist is invoking David Cloud and Voodoo Priestesses in order to decree what YOU think I'm allowed to listen to, and meanwhile, Satan has the most powerful Music and the most beautiful melody I've ever heard, and he's destroying your entire society with it.

Yes....That is the most beautiful melody on the planet...and that song is STRAIGHT FROM HELL....

 

And Jordan is invoking the wisdom of Voodoo to speak against those veritable demons Chris Tomlin and Hillsong....

You're my hero, buddy, God knows where Christianity would be without you and your voodoo wisdom looking out for us....

What an absurd and stupid conversation you are having.

CCM, by its definition:

"Contemporary":

1:  happening, existing, living, or coming into being during the same period of time
2a :  simultaneous
b :  marked by characteristics of the present period :  modern, current
For this usage, it refers to "Marked by characteristics of the present period"
  It is music classified as Christian, loosely-speaking, characterized by sounds that are of the present period. Thus, they seek to emulate the fads and styles of what id popular at the moment. That's why say, Stryper was a hair metal band, a style particular to the 80's, and why the CCM from varying times sounded so much like the popular music 'contemporary' to that particular time period. So, it DOES mean something, and it is very intentional. Much of the basic hymn styles aren't specific to a time period or popular musical style, and that is also intentional. That's why my great-grand parents could be praise and glorify God with exactly the same music as I do today, and my grandchildren can in 50 years, whereas the CCM songs continually move and shift. Petra and Stryper would today be considered 'oldies' Christian music, while "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" is just a good hymn, still sung in thousands of churches around the world today as it has been for the last 500 years. It hasn't gotten worn out, while a CCM song from 30 years back, is old now to the young folks who want their Christian rap and death metal music. Contemporary means it MUST constantly change along with the secular musical landscape. 
 
As for what Satan uses, he uses rock, and he uses jazz, and he uses what ever he can to get us from living a sanctified, consecrated life in ALL ways for Himself. One cannot be sanctified and holy while listening to music specifically designed by people to encourage rebellion, which is as the sin of witchcraft, which is ALSO heavily referred to throughout rock music. And believe me, Satan will use things that are, on the surface, 'Christian', if it gets us away from true Christianity.
 
interesting you would put up a John Lennon song as proof of what Satan uses. Are you aware of how many CCM performers cite the Beatles as one of their primary influences? Think Satan didn't use the Beatles mightily upon the world?
 
 As for that which is lovely, of good report, (by whom?), glorifying and edifying, which of these falls into that category?
or this one?
 
Seriously, where is the difference? Do you really believe God gave us Rock and Roll?

This entire argument is sort of absurd....by it's very nature.

 

There IS no debate here.  There are some who would seek to tell everyone to listen to any and everything...and there are those who would seek to force their preferences upon everyone else with no Biblical justification....

 

Only a FOOL thinks that "ROCK" music has devastated society.

 

And all you Slaves are bickering about Altar Boys, Petra, "CCM"  <---(However the heck that's defined)....and NONE of that is the argument.

Satan is OWNING you....and it's with songs like THAT!

Some feckless Independent Baptist is invoking David Cloud and Voodoo Priestesses in order to decree what YOU think I'm allowed to listen to, and meanwhile, Satan has the most powerful Music and the most beautiful melody I've ever heard, and he's destroying your entire society with it.

And Jordan is invoking the wisdom of Voodoo to speak against those veritable demons Chris Tomlin and Hillsong....

You're my hero, buddy, God knows where Christianity would be without you and your voodoo wisdom looking out for us....

What an absurd and stupid conversation you are having.

See, your attitude, the need to ridicule, to call names and mock, calling others 'slaves' and 'fools', (best be real careful with that one!), saying the conversation is 'stupid and absurd", reveals your problem, which is that you display the basic, teen-age-type rebellious nature that always typifies those addicted to rock music.

In all the years I have been a pastor, only once have I had a man older than myself walk up to me, poke his finger in my chest, and say, "Hey, BUD!, I can listen to whatever I want! There's nothing you can show me to say that rock and roll is bad!" and turned and walked out of the church. The funny thing was, my lesson that day had nothing to do with rock or even CCM, but I have made a short mention on CCM, maybe a sentence, which was fairly innocuous, and he missed everything else because he sat and stewed over that ONE statement. Rebellion, plain and simple, and not surprising. It is the same attitude that prevails in churches when the youth bring in CCM to a church long since established, and tell the older folks, who have worked in the heat of the day to build that church, that they are free to leave if they don't like the changes. Rebellion and rejection of any authority, disrespect for those who have fought the good fight since before they were born, but must now move along so as not to impede their progress.

You make no good point, no new points, that I and many others like me, haven't heard before. Your desire is to yourself, and you will use any justification to listen to your precious music, with no regard as to what holiness in all areas even means.   No one here is stopping you from it,  Satan is owning you, sir, and the proof is in your attitude, that you can't see beyond YOUR personal preferences to grasp the idea of sanctification and holiness and separation.  Do as you like, but if you continue to post disrespectful, name-calling posts, you will be removed from the forum.

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CCM, by its definition:

"Contemporary":

1:  happening, existing, living, or coming into being during the same period of time
2a :  simultaneous
b :  marked by characteristics of the present period :  modern, current
For this usage, it refers to "Marked by characteristics of the present period"
  It is music classified as Christian, loosely-speaking, characterized by sounds that are of the present period. Thus, they seek to emulate the fads and styles of what id popular at the moment. That's why say, Stryper was a hair metal band, a style particular to the 80's, and why the CCM from varying times sounded so much like the popular music 'contemporary' to that particular time period. So, it DOES mean something, and it is very intentional. Much of the basic hymn styles aren't specific to a time period or popular musical style, and that is also intentional. That's why my great-grand parents could be praise and glorify God with exactly the same music as I do today, and my grandchildren can in 50 years, whereas the CCM songs continually move and shift. Petra and Stryper would today be considered 'oldies' Christian music, while "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" is just a good hymn, still sung in thousands of churches around the world today as it has been for the last 500 years. It hasn't gotten worn out, while a CCM song from 30 years back, is old now to the young folks who want their Christian rap and death metal music. Contemporary means it MUST constantly change along with the secular musical landscape. 
 
As for what Satan uses, he uses rock, and he uses jazz, and he uses what ever he can to get us from living a sanctified, consecrated life in ALL ways for Himself. One cannot be sanctified and holy while listening to music specifically designed by people to encourage rebellion, which is as the sin of witchcraft, which is ALSO heavily referred to throughout rock music. And believe me, Satan will use things that are, on the surface, 'Christian', if it gets us away from true Christianity.
 
interesting you would put up a John Lennon song as proof of what Satan uses. Are you aware of how many CCM performers cite the Beatles as one of their primary influences? Think Satan didn't use the Beatles mightily upon the world?
 
 As for that which is lovely, of good report, (by whom?), glorifying and edifying, which of these falls into that category?
or this one?
 

 

 

 

Edited by Heir of Salvation

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CCM, by its definition:

"Contemporary":

1:  happening, existing, living, or coming into being during the same period of time
2a :  simultaneous 
b :  marked by characteristics of the present period :  moderncurrent
For this usage, it refers to "Marked by characteristics of the present period"
 
Whenever someone copy/pastes a Dictionary folks....you're in for a pretty pathetic argument....stay tuned:
 
It is music classified as Christian, loosely-speaking, characterized by sounds that are of the present period. Thus, they seek to emulate the fads and styles of what id popular at the moment.
Yes....it's "Contemporary"...in that sense....so what?
 
That's why say, Stryper was a hair metal band, a style particular to the 80's, and why the CCM from varying times sounded so much like the popular music 'contemporary' to that particular time period.
They sounded like "Styper"?....REALLY?...how many Christian musicians emulated Stryper?
Stryper was a category all their own, no doubt....and, I was never a fan....but, do you seriously think that other Contemporary Christian Groups (of note) emulated STRYPER????
 
O.K......name 2
 
So, it DOES mean something, and it is very intentional. Much of the basic hymn styles aren't specific to a time period or popular musical style, and that is also intentional.
 
Yes, the word "Contemporary"...does mean something.....It means absolutely nothing more or less than what it denotes...of the time period.
Your contention, is vaguely expressed by the statement that anything or any style of music common to the last 25 to 30 years must be inherently evil.....I take issue with it because it's absurd.
 
By your logic, all I must do is wait 10 years, and then I can listen to all the Petra I want because it won't be "contemporary" any more.....Criminy....they're 25 years old already!!!
 
That's why my great-grand parents could be praise and glorify God with exactly the same music as I do today, and my grandchildren can in 50 years, whereas the CCM songs continually move and shift.
 
Except, perhaps, the ones that are already recorded?.....They won't change will they?....But, to humor this statement...
Of course they do, that's true by definition.....
If it's "Contemporary"....than, by your Dictionary argument....it's modern.........
But, these old bands like Petra aren't modern any more....they aren't "contemporary"...
 
They stand on their own as either Godly or ungodly......I fail to see any argument that makes sense which quantifies them as "ungodly"....only "contemporary"....
 
They aren't "contemporary"....they're 30 years old at this point.....So what's your argument?
 
Petra and Stryper would today be considered 'oldies' Christian music, while "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" is just a good hymn, still sung in thousands of churches around the world today as it has been for the last 500 years. It hasn't gotten worn out,
There's no correlation between Stryper and Petra.
Only someone who knows little of either would compare them...but in referenve to Luther's Hymn "A Mighty Fortress".
 
No, it hasn't .... because it's timelessly good music.
 
Good, and Christ-honoring music is timeless.  
I'd contend that some of Petra's music is almost that good....not quite perhaps...but, pretty close.
 
Martin Luther wrote "A mighty Fortress"....
 
Luther persecuted Baptists.
Yessir...
 
Maritin Luther wrote that song...he persecuted Baptists..........
 
Just sayin'........
 
while a CCM song from 30 years back, is old now to the young folks who want their Christian rap and death metal music.
 
Rap isn't music, (by any meaningful definition) and "Death Metal" makes the cut barely, if...at all.  I wouldn't defend either, but, now, you're merely moving the goalpoast, as is standard for anyone arguing for your position.
 
You are incapable of differentiating or, you refuse to...(I think you're refusing to in order to bolster your argument)...and that makes me sad.
 
Contemporary means it MUST constantly change along with the secular musical landscape. 
Yes, and you've already admitted that Petra is no longer "Contemporary"....(Shall I quote you?)
So, you've now self-defeated, but, please, let's continue....
 
As for what Satan uses, he uses rock, and he uses jazz, and he uses what ever he can to get us from living a sanctified, consecrated life in ALL ways for Himself.
 
I agree compleletly...
 
One cannot be sanctified and holy while listening to music specifically designed by people to encourage rebellion,
 
Agreed.
which is as the sin of witchcraft,
Now, you're being unnecessarily verbose instead of informative....
 
which is ALSO heavily referred to throughout rock music.
 
What a lack of clarity of thought!
What the blazes does "heavily referred to" mean here????
 
There's no clarity of thought in this sentence.
 
And believe me, Satan will use things that are, on the surface, 'Christian', if it gets us away from true Christianity.
Duh.
 
interesting you would put up a John Lennon song as proof of what Satan uses.
 
Yes, it was a brilliant demonstration of my very point....Lennon's song wasn't "contemporary"....it wasn't exactly the "Rock" music popular in it's day...it was an absolutely GORGEOUS melody (beautifully sung, I'd add) which was entirely Satanic  .
That was the point I was making...
 
That it WASN'T the "Style" per-se it was whether or not it glorified God...That point seems to have escaped you.
I'm not remotely surprised.
 
Are you aware of how many CCM performers cite the Beatles as one of their primary influences?
 
Name 2 of the ones I've cited.
2.......exactly 2 and quote them.
 
Think Satan didn't use the Beatles mightily upon the world?
 
I KNOW HE DID!!!  That was my entire point in my last post....It COMPLETELY ESCAPED YOU!...
I'm not surprised it did....
But, that was precisely my point and you missed it.....
Completely.
 
I'm not remotely surprised.
 
See, your attitude, the need to ridicule, to call names and mock, calling others 'slaves' and 'fools',
 
I've called no one "slaves" or "fools"...no one.
 
saying the conversation is 'stupid and absurd",
It is absurd...
And the conversation is stupid.
It's nonsense.
No one should have to argue  about this....It's subjective and stupid and absurd.
Absolutely.
 
reveals your problem, which is that you display the basic, teen-age-type rebellious nature that always typifies those addicted to rock music.

LOL...o.k...Sigmund...please....tell me all about the inner-workings of my mentality.. 

I'm not "Addicted" to "Rock Music" Sigmund.... I don't even listen to it.

In all the years I have been a pastor, only once have I had a man older than myself walk up to me, poke his finger in my chest, and say, "Hey, BUD!, I can listen to whatever I want! There's nothing you can show me to say that rock and roll is bad!" and turned and walked out of the church 

He was right.

In all the years I've been a preacher.....I've had lots of fingers poked in my chest.......

Here's the difference between you and I....

I recognized that SOMETIMES....they had a point.

I'm thankful for finger-pokers...if you can't deliver your message without alienating people...sometimes (not always)....sometimes.....it's on you....NOT THEM.

But, my pride, though wounded by finger-pokers...took a back-seat to learning, and sometimes, finger-pokers have a point.

The funny thing was, my lesson that day had nothing to do with rock or even CCM, but I have made a short mention on CCM, maybe a sentence, which was fairly innocuous, and he missed everything else because he sat and stewed over that ONE statement.

That's one way to look at it...here's another:

Your lesson apparently wasn't about music, if I understand you correctly, so why did you think you had to throw in your two-cents about music?  Maybe you should have simply fed the flock the message you seem to think was so incredible and avoid inserting your two cents?  

Your job is to preach the Word...

The Word doesn't mention C.C.M.

You preach the Word....the congregation....will turn their backs on most ungodly CCM if you feed the Word to them.  You're afraid the Word itself is insufficient to guide them  and you have to order them to do what you think they ought to do....

Don't.

Feed them the Word, and they'll know righteous from un-righteous music.  (without you telling them). They aren't stupid.  Preach the WORD....not your interpretation of it, and they'll know right from wrong.....I've learned that much in my time in the pulpit, the early years of which I spent telling congregations what they could and could not listen to............................

They aren't as stupid as some might think.

Try it.

Rebellion,

"Rebellion"?....against WHOM EXACTLY? Do tell, against whom was I rebelling?....

Wait, I already know.......YOU

I don't actually listen to CCM as a rule or "ROCK".....I listen to what you would call "Classical"...and I listen to choral music...and whatever horrific songs my kids are learning for the up-coming Christmas Cantata at Church.....

But, whom, exactly, do you think I'm rebelling against Sigmund?

I'm a grown man....beholden to no one but, my God and the conscience (let's call it the Holy Spirit) he gave me.  No one even TRIES to tell me what I "May" or "May not" listen to (except you apparently)....but, Rock music isn't one of the things I do listen to.  I listen to little music now, but when I do....it's mostly BBN radio... ( you know, tired,horribly-executed, badly recorded versions of George Beverley Shea singing "His eye is on the Sparrow" for the 8 millionth time).

That's what I listen to.

 plain and simple, and not surprising.

Yes, but, you're entirely wrong... I don't even listen to CCM.....I don't actually LIKE IT!

It is the same attitude that prevails in churches when the youth bring in CCM to a church long since established, and tell the older folks, who have worked in the heat of the day to build that church, that they are free to leave if they don't like the changes.

AWW....poor babies....and those old folks "worked in the heat of the day" to build What, and to the glory of whom????

You may have no idea what is wrong with your diatribe here...but, others will know it's a horrific set of sentiments.

Rebellion and rejection of any authority,

Rebellion againast whom? and rejection of which authority?

Tell me who it is I'm supposedly "rebelling" against and precisely which "authority" I'm "rejecting" and then you've said something...until then, it's vapid verbosity signifying nothing.

disrespect for those who have fought the good fight since before they were born, but must now move along so as not to impede their progress.

Oh, o.k.....Sigmund, you've got me pegged 

You make no good point, no new points, that I and many others like me, haven't heard before. Your desire is to yourself, and you will use any justification to listen to your precious music,

I don't listen to that music...not for at least the last 15 years....but, please...go on.

 that you can't see beyond YOUR personal preferences to grasp the idea of sanctification and holiness and separation. 

The music I'm defending isn't my preference, Sigmund.....The music I prefer....is primarily music you've never heard of, and never will hear of, and I've only given hints of it so far in this thread, but, if you bothered to look, it obviously isn't the "Rock" or "CCM" you assume (against all evidence) I listen to.

Do as you like, but if you continue to post disrespectful, name-calling posts, you will be removed from the forum.

 
How cute...
I give you credit that it actually took only 4 paragraphs of your ranting to pull this "I'm the boss,"  "I'm a moderator" card...
But, your arguments are still absurd whether you moderate or not.
 
 I don't respect them.
 
The arguments, that is.....they are vapid, ill-informed and incoherent.
Even moderators can say ridiculous things now and again.
 
 
 
Edited by Heir of Salvation

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6 hours ago, Heir of Salvation said:

 it I assu

CCM, by its definition:

"Contemporary":

1:  happening, existing, living, or coming into being during the same period of time
2a :  simultaneous 
b :  marked by characteristics of the present period :  moderncurrent
For this usage, it refers to "Marked by characteristics of the present period"
 
Whenever someone copy/pastes a Dictionary folks....you're in for a pretty pathetic argument....stay tuned:
You are the one who said, and I quote, "There is no quantifiable delineation of what PRECISELY defines "Contemporary" or "Rock" or "Modern" or any other style of music." Indeed there is a quantifiable deliniation ie, definition, of what 'contemporary' is. I prefer to give a cut and paste definition so no one can accuse me of giving my own words here. To do otherwise might seem dishonest.
 
It is music classified as Christian, loosely-speaking, characterized by sounds that are of the present period. Thus, they seek to emulate the fads and styles of what id popular at the moment.
Yes....it's "Contemporary"...in that sense....so what? Just showing what it means.
 
That's why say, Stryper was a hair metal band, a style particular to the 80's, and why the CCM from varying times sounded so much like the popular music 'contemporary' to that particular time period.
They sounded like "Styper"?....REALLY?...how many Christian musicians emulated Stryper?
Stryper was a category all their own, no doubt....and, I was never a fan....but, do you seriously think that other Contemporary Christian Groups (of note) emulated STRYPER????
 
O.K......name 2 Re-read that statement-I didn't say they sounded like Stryper, I said the bands, like Stryper, sought to sound, in style, like the bands of the day. And, well, to look like them.  It was an example of how a CCM band followed after the faddish styles of dress and music to maintain its popularity and relevence in the culture-not just believers.
 
So, it DOES mean something, and it is very intentional. Much of the basic hymn styles aren't specific to a time period or popular musical style, and that is also intentional.
 
Yes, the word "Contemporary"...does mean something.....It means absolutely nothing more or less than what it denotes...of the time period.
Your contention, is vaguely expressed by the statement that anything or any style of music common to the last 25 to 30 years must be inherently evil.....I take issue with it because it's absurd.
 
By your logic, all I must do is wait 10 years, and then I can listen to all the Petra I want because it won't be "contemporary" any more.....Criminy....they're 25 years old already!!!
 
That's why my great-grand parents could be praise and glorify God with exactly the same music as I do today, and my grandchildren can in 50 years, whereas the CCM songs continually move and shift.
 
Except, perhaps, the ones that are already recorded?.....They won't change will they?....But, to humor this statement...
Of course they do, that's true by definition.....
If it's "Contemporary"....than, by your Dictionary argument....it's modern.........
But, these old bands like Petra aren't modern any more....they aren't "contemporary"...They are contemporary, in that they are of that particular style of music of a particular time period-an imitation. I believe the Bible says "Be not conformed to this world..." That's the whole issue here: these groups purposely conform to the worldly styles of music, beat, and even dress of a particular time-they are all about conformity to the world-that's what makes them contemporary, that's what makes them wrong-it is unholy, unsanctified, and I don't believe God accepts it. Why? Because He said, "I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me". God desired to given worship and praise that is sanctified, to be treated differently, in a holy manner. To claim something so absolutely of ungodly, worldly origins as rock music, to somehow become holy and right because the words are changed, is to completely miss what holy and sanctified even mean.
 
They stand on their own as either Godly or ungodly......I fail to see any argument that makes sense which quantifies them as "ungodly"....only "contemporary"....
 
They aren't "contemporary"....they're 30 years old at this point.....So what's your argument?
 
Petra and Stryper would today be considered 'oldies' Christian music, while "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" is just a good hymn, still sung in thousands of churches around the world today as it has been for the last 500 years. It hasn't gotten worn out,
There's no correlation between Stryper and Petra.
Only someone who knows little of either would compare them...but in referenve to Luther's Hymn "A Mighty Fortress".
 
No, it hasn't .... because it's timelessly good music. EXACTLY! but WHY? Because it uses a style of music that is not always changing to be relevent, doesn't follow the world's styles and sounds-it is timeless, and this is the nature of God-timeless, and while certainly things of men, be it music or dress, etc, are not timeless as God is timeless, we should shun trying to stay fashionable according to the world's standards. That's why most of us here use a 400 year old Bible-the new ones seek to remain relevent-that's why the NIV people are continually putting out new ones, to stay relevent to the changes in culture and style and lingo-yet our KJV is still just as relevent now as it was 400 years ago. And our music should be long-lasting and little-changing, not following the short-lived fads of music of the world.
 
Good, and Christ-honoring music is timeless.  
I'd contend that some of Petra's music is almost that good....not quite perhaps...but, pretty close.
 
Martin Luther wrote "A mighty Fortress"....
 
Luther persecuted Baptists.
Yessir...
 
Maritin Luther wrote that song...he persecuted Baptists..........True, but while I would be willing to bet that you can't name one person who became a Lutheran and began persecuting Baptists after singing his song, I can name entire churches and colleges that have left behind the IFB, or at least conservative Christian path and went completely contemporary after loosening the music standards and allowing CCM into their services or colleges. Tennessee Temple, for one, just as a start.  Just sayin...
 
Just sayin'........
 
while a CCM song from 30 years back, is old now to the young folks who want their Christian rap and death metal music.
 
Rap isn't music, (by any meaningful definition) and "Death Metal" makes the cut barely, if...at all.  I wouldn't defend either, but, now, you're merely moving the goalpoast, as is standard for anyone arguing for your position. No, see, secular music moves the post, and Christian bands follow them. If there are unsaved kids who like a style of music, you will find a 'Christian' version of it. Again, that's art of the point. When you open the door, there is no closing it.
 
You are incapable of differentiating or, you refuse to...(I think you're refusing to in order to bolster your argument)...and that makes me sad. And you seem either blind to the danger represented by believers following after carnal music and introducing into our churches, or you just refuse to see it.
 
Contemporary means it MUST constantly change along with the secular musical landscape. 
Yes, and you've already admitted that Petra is no longer "Contemporary"....(Shall I quote you?)
So, you've now self-defeated, but, please, let's continue....
 
As for what Satan uses, he uses rock, and he uses jazz, and he uses what ever he can to get us from living a sanctified, consecrated life in ALL ways for Himself.
 
I agree compleletly...
 
One cannot be sanctified and holy while listening to music specifically designed by people to encourage rebellion,
 
Agreed.
which is as the sin of witchcraft,
Now, you're being unnecessarily verbose instead of informative....It's called Bible, and its important to see in the context of the discussion. Rock music encourages rebellion, which the BIBLE says is as the sin of withcraft. Its is extremely wicked.
 
which is ALSO heavily referred to throughout rock music.
 
What a lack of clarity of thought!
What the blazes does "heavily referred to" mean here????
 
There's no clarity of thought in this sentence.
 
And believe me, Satan will use things that are, on the surface, 'Christian', if it gets us away from true Christianity.
Duh.
 
interesting you would put up a John Lennon song as proof of what Satan uses.
 
Yes, it was a brilliant demonstration of my very point....Lennon's song wasn't "contemporary"....it wasn't exactly the "Rock" music popular in it's day...it was an absolutely GORGEOUS melody (beautifully sung, I'd add) which was entirely Satanic  .
That was the point I was making...
 
That it WASN'T the "Style" per-se it was whether or not it glorified God...That point seems to have escaped you.
I'm not remotely surprised.
 
Are you aware of how many CCM performers cite the Beatles as one of their primary influences?
 
Name 2 of the ones I've cited.
2.......exactly 2 and quote them.
 
Think Satan didn't use the Beatles mightily upon the world?
 
I KNOW HE DID!!!  That was my entire point in my last post....It COMPLETELY ESCAPED YOU!...
I'm not surprised it did....
But, that was precisely my point and you missed it.....
Completely.
 
I'm not remotely surprised.
 
See, your attitude, the need to ridicule, to call names and mock, calling others 'slaves' and 'fools',
 
I've called no one "slaves" or "fools"...no one.  "Only a FOOL thinks that "ROCK" music has devastated society." Considering many here probably do, and I do, you have called me a fool. 
"And all you Slaves are bickering about Altar Boys, Petra, "CCM"  Looks like you called us all slaves. And since your next comment was "Satan is OWNING you....and it's with songs like THAT!"  I assume then you accuse us of being slaves to Satan. Even though it is we who stand against intermixing his music with God's word.
 
saying the conversation is 'stupid and absurd",
It is absurd...
And the conversation is stupid.
It's nonsense.
No one should have to argue  about this....It's subjective and stupid and absurd.
Absolutely.
 
reveals your problem, which is that you display the basic, teen-age-type rebellious nature that always typifies those addicted to rock music.

LOL...o.k...Sigmund...please....tell me all about the inner-workings of my mentality.. 

I'm not "Addicted" to "Rock Music" Sigmund.... I don't even listen to it.

In all the years I have been a pastor, only once have I had a man older than myself walk up to me, poke his finger in my chest, and say, "Hey, BUD!, I can listen to whatever I want! There's nothing you can show me to say that rock and roll is bad!" and turned and walked out of the church 

He was right.

In all the years I've been a preacher.....I've had lots of fingers poked in my chest.......

Here's the difference between you and I....

I recognized that SOMETIMES....they had a point.

I'm thankful for finger-pokers...if you can't deliver your message without alienating people...sometimes (not always)....sometimes.....it's on you....NOT THEM.

But, my pride, though wounded by finger-pokers...took a back-seat to learning, and sometimes, finger-pokers have a point.

The funny thing was, my lesson that day had nothing to do with rock or even CCM, but I have made a short mention on CCM, maybe a sentence, which was fairly innocuous, and he missed everything else because he sat and stewed over that ONE statement.

That's one way to look at it...here's another:

Your lesson apparently wasn't about music, if I understand you correctly, so why did you think you had to throw in your two-cents about music?  Maybe you should have simply fed the flock the message you seem to think was so incredible and avoid inserting your two cents?  

Your job is to preach the Word...

The Word doesn't mention C.C.M. But it speaks a great deal about godly separation, and CCM music is in itself a rejection of that separation. It is the rejection of biblical separation that is a great downfall in many churches today, and many believers are falling for it becuase they have pastors who would rather entertain the goats than feed the sheep.

You preach the Word....the congregation....will turn their backs on most ungodly CCM if you feed the Word to them.  You're afraid the Word itself is insufficient to guide them  and you have to order them to do what you think they ought to do....I preach the whole counsel of God. And the word of God has applications in all areas of life. Including this.

Don't.

Feed them the Word, and they'll know righteous from un-righteous music.  (without you telling them). They aren't stupid.  Preach the WORD....not your interpretation of it, and they'll know right from wrong.....I've learned that much in my time in the pulpit, the early years of which I spent telling congregations what they could and could not listen to............................

They aren't as stupid as some might think.

Try it.

Rebellion,

"Rebellion"?....against WHOM EXACTLY? Do tell, against whom was I rebelling?....

Wait, I already know.......YOU

I don't actually listen to CCM as a rule or "ROCK".....I listen to what you would call "Classical"...and I listen to choral music...and whatever horrific songs my kids are learning for the up-coming Christmas Cantata at Church.....

But, whom, exactly, do you think I'm rebelling against Sigmund?

I'm a grown man....beholden to no one but, my God and the conscience (let's call it the Holy Spirit) he gave me.  No one even TRIES to tell me what I "May" or "May not" listen to (except you apparently)....but, Rock music isn't one of the things I do listen to.  I listen to little music now, but when I do....it's mostly BBN radio... ( you know, tired,horribly-executed, badly recorded versions of George Beverley Shea singing "His eye is on the Sparrow" for the 8 millionth time).

That's what I listen to.

 plain and simple, and not surprising.

Yes, but, you're entirely wrong... I don't even listen to CCM.....I don't actually LIKE IT!

It is the same attitude that prevails in churches when the youth bring in CCM to a church long since established, and tell the older folks, who have worked in the heat of the day to build that church, that they are free to leave if they don't like the changes.

AWW....poor babies....and those old folks "worked in the heat of the day" to build What, and to the glory of whom????

You may have no idea what is wrong with your diatribe here...but, others will know it's a horrific set of sentiments.

Rebellion and rejection of any authority,

Rebellion againast whom? and rejection of which authority?

Tell me who it is I'm supposedly "rebelling" against and precisely which "authority" I'm "rejecting" and then you've said something...until then, it's vapid verbosity signifying nothing.

disrespect for those who have fought the good fight since before they were born, but must now move along so as not to impede their progress.

Oh, o.k.....Sigmund, you've got me pegged 

You make no good point, no new points, that I and many others like me, haven't heard before. Your desire is to yourself, and you will use any justification to listen to your precious music,

I don't listen to that music...not for at least the last 15 years....but, please...go on.

 that you can't see beyond YOUR personal preferences to grasp the idea of sanctification and holiness and separation. 

The music I'm defending isn't my preference, Sigmund.....The music I prefer....is primarily music you've never heard of, and never will hear of, and I've only given hints of it so far in this thread, but, if you bothered to look, it obviously isn't the "Rock" or "CCM" you assume (against all evidence) I listen to.

Do as you like, but if you continue to post disrespectful, name-calling posts, you will be removed from the forum.

 
How cute...
I give you credit that it actually took only 4 paragraphs of your ranting to pull this "I'm the boss,"  "I'm a moderator" card...
But, your arguments are still absurd whether you moderate or not.
 
 I don't respect them.
 
The arguments, that is.....they are vapid, ill-informed and incoherent.
Even moderators can say ridiculous things now and again.
 
 
 

 

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 "Only a FOOL thinks that "ROCK" music has devastated society." Considering many here probably do, and I do, you have called me a fool. 

"And all you Slaves are bickering about Altar Boys, Petra, "CCM"  Looks like you called us all slaves. And since your next comment was "Satan is OWNING you....and it's with songs like THAT!"  I assume then you accuse us of being slaves to Satan. Even though it is we who stand against intermixing his music with God's word.
 
O.K.  fair enough...I didn't mean to single anyone out, but, that was inadvisable verbiage on my part. 
I apologize.  Mea culpa

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On 11/20/2015, 1:07:29, Heir of Salvation said:

Do as you like, but if you continue to post disrespectful, name-calling posts, you will be removed from the forum.

How cute...
I give you credit that it actually took only 4 paragraphs of your ranting to pull this "I'm the boss,"  "I'm a moderator" card...
 

If you will notice, the 'Moderator card' was 'pulled' because of the rude nature of your post, not because of any disagreement with your position. You are welcome to discuss/debate so long as you can do so in a respectful manner, but rudeness towards other posters and insubordination towards moderators will not be tolerated. 

I'm going to lock this thread because I think the history and content of the earlier posts will lead more toward an argument than a profitable debate (and the quotes are getting rather unwieldy!). Feel free to reopen the topic in a new thread, if you so wish, but let's start fresh on it, eh? :wink 

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