Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

Jordan Kurecki

What is your position on music and why?

Recommended Posts

It isn't different to God. To what purpose is music to be used? You cannot use music that physically (scientifically proven) distresses the body to exhort. You cannot use music that lulls into a hypnotic state (again, scientifically proven) to help bring your thoughts into captivity.

Come on guys, this shouldn't even be an issue. The lost world even knows that Christians shouldn't listen to rock music. Sure, maybe it makes you feel good, but that's not the point of music. Music should be used to draw you closer to God, not make you feel good. I know, for me, drawing closer to God usually consists of me not feeling good, because I'm a dirty, rotten sinner. I have listened to CCM, I have listened to Southern Gospel, and looking back now, if I'm honest, those were the least spiritual times in my life. We need to stop living our Christian life for our comfort and start living for God. You have to get uncomfortable in order to be comforted by God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It isn't different to God. To what purpose is music to be used? You cannot use music that physically (scientifically proven) distresses the body to exhort. You cannot use music that lulls into a hypnotic state (again, scientifically proven) to help bring your thoughts into captivity.

I'm not sure what you are referring to in the quote. I do know that science is constantly "proving something" only later to decide they were wrong and have now proven something else. Or, science proves something in a limited fashion and then declares it broadly when it's not been proven broadly.

I don't know what "distresses the body to exhort" means. I don't know about your other statement either unless you are referring to something like the ommm, ommm meditative chanting stuff.

God doesn't change. It's interesting that God didn't choose to address music specifically or establish a clear musical standard.

Christians have been debating the issue of music for many centuries now. They didn't all agree back then nor do they today.

Conservative Baptists once rejected the "new, worldly style" of music Moody used but later most embraced it and that music is common in Baptist churches today. What happened? What changed? Were they right or wrong then or now?

This is a long going, on going difference among Christians. Personally, I concern myself with the music in our own church and leave music matter in other churches up to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I said was you cannot use music that physically distresses the body to exhort. That is, physical distress is not a means of exhortation.

I disagree that God did not establish a clear musical standard. He did.

Yes Christians have been debating the issue for years, yes "Conservative Baptist" rejected the new worldly style of music Moody used (although to say that that exact style is common in Baptist churches today is somewhat of an assumption [furthermore, I don't generally concern myself with the opinions of Moody, as he was a Methodist]), this is because there has always been those who have an agenda to push and there have always been those who don't understand anything about music, yet try to proclaim what is right or wrong with it based off their opinion.

I care little for what other Christians, Baptist, Musicians, etc. etc. think, I care only for what God thinks. God laid down the purpose of music very plainly in his Word, and to say that He did not tell us in His Word what sort of music to listen to, or to say that music is amoral, or to say that the musical structure has no effect on people, or any other of the excuses that I have heard and have spewed out myself, is to totally ignore the real problem. The problem people have with music is that they want to do what they want to do, and THEY DON"T CARE WHAT GOD THINKS, they will make Him conform to their wants and desires.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I said was you cannot use music that physically distresses the body to exhort. That is, physical distress is not a means of exhortation.

I disagree that God did not establish a clear musical standard. He did.

Yes Christians have been debating the issue for years, yes "Conservative Baptist" rejected the new worldly style of music Moody used (although to say that that exact style is common in Baptist churches today is somewhat of an assumption [furthermore, I don't generally concern myself with the opinions of Moody, as he was a Methodist]), this is because there has always been those who have an agenda to push and there have always been those who don't understand anything about music, yet try to proclaim what is right or wrong with it based off their opinion.

I care little for what other Christians, Baptist, Musicians, etc. etc. think, I care only for what God thinks. God laid down the purpose of music very plainly in his Word, and to say that He did not tell us in His Word what sort of music to listen to, or to say that music is amoral, or to say that the musical structure has no effect on people, or any other of the excuses that I have heard and have spewed out myself, is to totally ignore the real problem. The problem people have with music is that they want to do what they want to do, and THEY DON"T CARE WHAT GOD THINKS, they will make Him conform to their wants and desires.

Another big problem Christians have with music, is that so many are ignorant about it-it comes down to what feels good to them, not what is holy and sanctified, which is what God demands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another big problem Christians have with music, is that so many are ignorant about it-it comes down to what feels good to them, not what is holy and sanctified, which is what God demands.

Agreed!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"God laid down the purpose of music very plainly in his Word"

Could you post this please?

Is there only one purpose for music? Is church the only place for music?

Myself, I also base my views from the Word of God. The point in looking at the fact music has long been debated throughout the centuries of Christianity is simply to point out the long held differing views on music from Scripture and at least a perceived lack of a clear, accepted standard in Scripture. This is why no matter the music standards of any of our churches today, it's likely churches 200 years ago would have objected to some or all of what we use. Go back through the centuries and what we consider to be conservative, sound biblical music today would have been denounced and unaccepted.

There are indeed those who listen to music, or even reject music, based solely or primarily upon their own tastes or preferences. At the same time, there are those who have studied the matter out, determined their stance based upon that study, and yet many come to different conclusions and the music they use and reject reflects that.

What music the church down the road, across the nation or around the world uses or rejects is between them and God. If music becomes an issue in our home churches we should certainly address it then and there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The purpose of music is to praise God (Psalm 150, Psalm 33:3). Is that the only purpose of music? No, of course not. However, it is CHRISTIAN music that is in question. We aren't debating classical, folk music, or even country or rock. The issue is "What is the purpose of Christian music". Now if the purpose of music is to praise God then you can easily see what sort of music you should listen to by looking at how you praise God. It's just that simple.

 

And I will reiterate that I really couldn't care less what churches 200 years ago thought, I care about what God thinks. Most churches 200 years ago believed that the only acceptable music Scripture put to music. It isn't that I'm ignorant of what churches 200 years ago thought or believed, it's that what the churches 200 years ago is irrelevant

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"God laid down the purpose of music very plainly in his Word"

Could you post this please?

Is there only one purpose for music? Is church the only place for music?

Myself, I also base my views from the Word of God. The point in looking at the fact music has long been debated throughout the centuries of Christianity is simply to point out the long held differing views on music from Scripture and at least a perceived lack of a clear, accepted standard in Scripture. This is why no matter the music standards of any of our churches today, it's likely churches 200 years ago would have objected to some or all of what we use. Go back through the centuries and what we consider to be conservative, sound biblical music today would have been denounced and unaccepted.

There are indeed those who listen to music, or even reject music, based solely or primarily upon their own tastes or preferences. At the same time, there are those who have studied the matter out, determined their stance based upon that study, and yet many come to different conclusions and the music they use and reject reflects that.

What music the church down the road, across the nation or around the world uses or rejects is between them and God. If music becomes an issue in our home churches we should certainly address it then and there.

Just because there's no clear consensus on music doesn't mean much-there is still no clear consensus on who Jesus was by many who claim the name Christian, going back, oh my, to the second century. There is no clear consensus on they way of salvation, or security of said salvation. People have always argued, many insisting on ignoring scripture or reinterpreting it. By the way, that is NOT what I am implying you or anyone else here is doing-just saying that there are a lot of areas that even so-called Christians can't agree on, despite clear scripture, that its no surprise there isn't a consensus when we need to seek guidance in areas that may not be quite as plain, yet are covered anyways.

Considering how there are those who really choose NOT to discern anything beyond plain, exact things, (like Smoking is fine because the Bible doesn't say NOT to smoke), how can we expect this type of person to try to apply such broad statements concepts as separation from worldliness to virtually anything? I mean, what IS worldliness? What IS carnality? If we can't answer this, if we are afraid to hurt someone's feelings, or afraid of stopping our own enjoyment, how can we please God in ALL things? And like anything else, there MUST be a way to establish whether or not some music is, or isn't carnal, else we just accept ALL music is, which itself is crazy because it is so influential, we know the Devil must have his hand in it.   Music can be used for seduction, to incite deep emotion, happiness, anger, violence, pride, patriotism, sadness-it can't possibly be neutral. And that music is wordless music, no lyrics, just music. So it MUST be judged, for we are to try ALL things, whether they are of God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just because there's no clear consensus on music doesn't mean much-there is still no clear consensus on who Jesus was by many who claim the name Christian, going back, oh my, to the second century. There is no clear consensus on they way of salvation, or security of said salvation. People have always argued, many insisting on ignoring scripture or reinterpreting it. By the way, that is NOT what I am implying you or anyone else here is doing-just saying that there are a lot of areas that even so-called Christians can't agree on, despite clear scripture, that its no surprise there isn't a consensus when we need to seek guidance in areas that may not be quite as plain, yet are covered anyways.

Considering how there are those who really choose NOT to discern anything beyond plain, exact things, (like Smoking is fine because the Bible doesn't say NOT to smoke), how can we expect this type of person to try to apply such broad statements concepts as separation from worldliness to virtually anything? I mean, what IS worldliness? What IS carnality? If we can't answer this, if we are afraid to hurt someone's feelings, or afraid of stopping our own enjoyment, how can we please God in ALL things? And like anything else, there MUST be a way to establish whether or not some music is, or isn't carnal, else we just accept ALL music is, which itself is crazy because it is so influential, we know the Devil must have his hand in it.   Music can be used for seduction, to incite deep emotion, happiness, anger, violence, pride, patriotism, sadness-it can't possibly be neutral. And that music is wordless music, no lyrics, just music. So it MUST be judged, for we are to try ALL things, whether they are of God.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for an anything goes view. I'm only discussing what's actually and what isn't.

Also, when I'm referring to different views among Christians, either now or centuries ago, I'm only referring to actual Christians.

As I've indicated elsewhere, can't remember if it was in this thread or not, I absolutely believe there are standards to be determined, applied and held to.

It would help if we were to define whether we are discussing music in churches, music for personal listening, or what.

I know of churches that will declare playing a piano accompanied singing of the Getty's song "In Christ Alone" is worldly, those who will say a Bluegrass version of "I'll Fly Away" is fleshly, yet they will play unbiblical, non-Christ honouring patriotic type songs which gets their congregation riled up, puffed up, sometimes clapping and shouting, but state that's not worldly or fleshly.

The fact that sound men of God have come down over a wide range of the musical spectrum on this matter would seem to indicate the topic isn't simple.

Personally, I agree that what particular men have done in the past, or do today, what they have written in books or reported from studies, isn't the key factor. In fact, we would likely be better off going by Scripture alone. Yet even those who claim to stand on Scripture alone often cite very little Scripture and a whole lot of studies, opinions of certain men, etc. While doing so they are quick to denounce those of another position who do the same. (If I worded that right it should be clear I'm speaking of such coming from many directions towards all other directions)

Now, seeing we are Independent, with each church establishing their own distinctives, should we be spending our time finding out what music other Independent churches use, or don't use, and then telling them they must change if they don't match our own? How many of us would welcome outsiders to our church who were intent upon telling us what we are doing is wrong and telling us all the things they say we should change?

Music does have an effect upon the hearer, but the effect isn't the same upon each hearer. The effect can also be very different from one race, ethnicity, nationality, region to another. In some cases, music can have a different effect upon men than women (and the other way).

I know of choir directors who have had difficulty when trying to combine whites and blacks in a choir when they haven't done so before. Whites tend to respond on 2 and 4 while blacks tend to respond on 1 and 3 (speaking of Americans here). I've heard preachers discuss this issue too.

We often focus on a very limited portion of churches and Christians; typically white American Christians. Go into black, Hispanic, Korean, Indian, Albanian and other churches in America and the music is typically very different. Go even further, into churches in other nations and the differences and varieties are greatly expounded. Again, I'm referring to actual Christians, not secular.

Even limiting a discussion to songs a large group agrees is acceptable, there are those who have different reactions to the songs.

As I've mentioned several times on OB, I like Bluegrass Gospel. Many people use the same basic arguments against Bluegrass Gospel as they do against CCM. While a smaller percentage, there are those who use the same arguments to go against hymns or musical instruments in a church.

Wherever we draw the line there will always be those we disagree with and those who disagree with us. Are we to battle this out back and forth, one church against another, or could this be better addressed within our own home church?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually went to a church in Romania, (Not an IFB missions church, mind you, a national church,) and I heard the exact same songs we sing at our church, played and sung the same way, but in Romanian. I have been among Filipinos and others, and heard the same thing. I believe it is because these people are trying to reach out to the Lord in a way that removes their 'culture' from what they are doing. The standard hymn style, if you will, spans much of Europe, as well as America, Italy, etc, so its not just culturally American or always white. And I have been in churches with many blacks that had music again no different than what I am used to. Its culture that divides us in wrong manners, like the wall of separation that was broken down so the Jews and Gentiles could fellowship together-many use their culture as almost a law that demands separation-THEIR music, OUR music, its all fake and all flesh.

I enjoy bluegrass, but as far as I know it doesn't generally incite violence and rebellion as rock music does. Bluegrass stems from old Celtic music, brought to America and altered a bit to be what it is. It was developed in homes, among families who had no other entertainments, when the families would gather in the evenings and play and sing together, and so, clearly, much 'sacred' music would have been added into the mix. But again, it is the fruit of the music styles we need to consider in use for God. Something that encouraged family and fellowship and joy, I think could rightly be used, but rock and its children, which were born our of rebellion and violence and alcohol and drugs and blatant Satanism, can it be redeemed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We judge a thing by the fruit which it produces. Having said that, I cannot reconcile myself to CCM not because the Bible says that a predominate backbeat is wrong, not because the Lord teaches against repetitive, hypnotic musical patterns, not because God condemns unresolved chords of dissonance, but rather because the fruit which I have seen it yield in my life and in the life of others is not that of a strong, Godly, Spiritual Christian. Walk in the Spirit and ye SHALL NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh. And that is exactly what CCM does, gratify the flesh. The problem is, when people look at music in the Bible they expect God to spell out exactly what style of music should be used, but He doesn't do that because there are many styles of music that are right. Also He doesn't mention things such as backbeat and things like that because terms and meanings change. He teaches by principle, and the principles that He lays down are timeless. I'm not trying to frustrate the Christian life. I'm not trying to make people miserable. But instead of saying over and over "what's wrong with it" maybe we need to start asking "what's right with it". We approach the Christian life with such a "I'll get by with everything that I can get by with" attitude. We come to God with such a flippant, casual approach. We try to form God around our life, instead of being transformed by the renewing of our mind and conforming our life to God's desires. Brothers and Sisters, WE ARE TO BE A HOLY PEOPLE!!!! There should be a separation between us and the world. When my lost coworker asked me one time what sort of music I listened to and I said Gospel, I should have taken heart and rejoiced that he looked at me like I was crazy. THERE NEEDS TO BE A DIFFERENCE! We are so concerned about what others think of us, or what we want for ourselves, instead of being as far from the world and as close to God as possible. We are commanded to love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. I'm not mad at anybody, I rather grieve that we have become so blind and ignorant as Christians to think that God doesn't care what sort of music we listen to. How foolish we are! How sinful we are!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to Psalm 150 and Psalm 33:3 Christian music should be loud, incorporate a variety of instruments and prompt us to dance. That's not what music is played in most of our churches (including mine).

If one chooses to look at the fruit of some of the song writers and performers, we should note that many of our hymns include songs written by "Calvinists", universalists, those who also wrote unchristian secular songs, infant baptizers and others.

Scripture lists the qualifications for pastors and deacons but where is the list of qualifications for a song writer or one who sings (whether solo, in a group or choir)? In many cases I've encountered folks who say they demand a higher standard for those writing a song than they do for those preaching. With the exception of those who wrote hymns they happen to like, then there are excuses why the rules don't apply to them.

Personally, I'm pleased with the music in our church and would likely be pleased with the music in most of your churches as well as they are probably all the same or very similar.

It's weak, poorly put forth and often accusatory manner of addressing music that turns many away from considering the issue. A simple, biblical statement would be much better. If that doesn't have the desired results, adding all sorts of side things and accusations won't help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But is there not to be a difference? Doesn't the Bible clearly say in I Peter 1:15-16 that we are to be holy in ALL manner of conversation? The fruit we are judging is not of those who wrote the song, but rather of those who listen to the music and sing the music. If it doesn't produce comeliness in my Christian life, if it is not of good report, setting a difference between me and the world, should I think on these things? Should they be in the life of a Christian? (Philippians 4:8, Romans 12:2).

I do not argue loud music, I like my music loud. Obviously not always, some songs tend to serenity. But just because something is loud doesn't make it death metal.

Again I assert, when you look at Scripture, and you look at music, they should (as all things in your life should) point the world and fellow believers to Christ. The issue that many have with the matter of music is not the principles, its the fact that they are so wrapped up in themselves and what they like that they don't consider God and they don't consider others (Romans 14:7-8, 12-13). We need to stop living like our music only affects us. Shame on us! There are dear young Christians in my church that if they saw me and the Pastor listening to CCM would most assuredly slip back into the world and never gain victory in life, because THE MUSIC is no different than what they listened to when they were lost.

I have given sufficient principles and Scripture for someone who wants the truth. This is the last post I will put on the subject.

The issue of music comes down to this. Stop living for yourself and being a selfish Christian, your music affects so much more than just you. And there needs to be a difference if you are going to be holy in ALL manner of conversation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I can be redeemed, anything can hahaha Sent from my Passport using Tapatalccac

can pornography be redeemed? Or what about Satan?

God does not redeem sin. He Cannot redeem lies,lust, pride,etc. Rock music cannot be redeemed because it's nature is against God. Rock music is not holy and you know it. Stop compromising my friend, it's not worth being out of fellowship with God. As long as you willfully embrace this music you are not in fellowship with God. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

God does not redeem sin. He Cannot redeem lies,lust, pride,etc. Rock music cannot be redeemed because it's nature is against God. Rock music is not holy and you know it. Stop compromising my friend, it's not worth being out of fellowship with God. As long as you willfully embrace this music you are not in fellowship with God. 

lol so are you full on Arminian right here?

you call me friend but have done nothing thus far but cast stones in my direction, you are far from "friendly".

what does it mean to "Redeem" would be our first question:

 

Redeem

REDEE'M, verb transitive [Latin redimo; red, re, and emo, to obtain or purchase.]

1. To purchase back; to ransom; to liberate or rescue from captivity or bondage, or from any obligation or liability to suffer or to be forfeited, by paying an equivalent; as, to redeem prisoners or captured goods; to redeem a pledge.

2. To repurchase what has been sold; to regain possession of a thing alienated, by repaying the value of it to the possessor.

If a man [shall] sell a dwelling house in a walled city, then he may redeem it within a whole year after it is sold.

Leviticus 25:25.

3. To rescue; to recover; to deliver from.

Th' Almighty from the grave hath me redeem'd.

Redeem Israel, O God, out of all his troubles. Psalms 25:22. Deuteronomy 7:8.

The mass of earth not yet redeemed from chaos.

4. To compensate; to make amends for.

It is a chance which does redeem all sorrows.

By lesser ills the greater to redeem

5. To free by making atonement.

Thou hast one daughter who redeems nature from the general curse.

6. To pay the penalty of.

Which of you will be mortal to redeem man's mortal crime?

(there are more, but stopping there)

So for porn, since its very nature is that of adultery, to redeem it, would be definition 6, 3, and perhaps 1. and further to it, as I have said, it would be the collapse thereof.

for rock music, we are here debating the nature thereof. I am on the side that, just due to a tone or pitch, or distortion in an instrument. or a scream or a yell in someones voice, that does not dictate a nature against God. I'm sure some prayers have been said on the battle field in shouts and yelling.

So I would take definition 2; to be bought back. that is, the world has had the lock down on the style of music but it is not rightfully theirs. It (Rock music) belongs to God.

Now you can disagree, but you cant say it somehow breaks my fellowship with God. until you from scripture alone can justify the statement "Rock music is ONLY of and For the world"

if you feel I am out of fellowship with God.

www.bethelbc.ca is our churches website, please let my pastor know your concerns as I'm sure he wouldn't want a deacon that has no fellowship with God.

 

Edited by Jordan G

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jordan G,

 

When I first came to this site I defended CCM rock music. I am now completely against it. Rock appeals to the flesh, promotes ecumenism and doesn't glorify God no matter what words you put to it.

What failed to convince you of this prior to your change on the matter?

What did finally convince you of the need to change your view?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am just curious, what is your position on music?

I like music that makes your emotions effective.

 

What do you think of Christian Rock?   No such thing.

What about Southern Gospel?  I like the kind that does not have a big beat, nor make you want to do a jig.

What about Bluegrass gospel?  I like the kind that is not doubletiming, nor make you want to do a jig.

 

What principles do you use in determining whether or not you will listen to a certain style?  

I use common sense. The Lord used David to keep Saul calm, and it wasn't with music that was fast and extremely upbeat.

Negatively feeling music is very comprehendable (made that word up myself!), and coming from a 'black metal' background and heavy metal background, I have a pretty good sense of what type of music is ungodly. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

Article Categories

About Us

Since 2001, Online Baptist has been an Independent Baptist website, and we exclusively use the King James Version of the Bible. We pride ourselves on a community that uplifts the Lord.

Contact Us

You can contact us using the following link. Contact Us or for questions regarding this website please contact @pastormatt or email James Foley at jfoley@sisqtel.net

Android App

Online Baptist has a custom App for all android users. You can download it from the Google Play store or click the following icon.

×
×
  • Create New...