Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

What is your position on music and why?


Recommended Posts

  • Members

If I didnt care, I wouldnt have replied to your comment. I find your arguments non convincing, according to you (it would appear) its cause you feel im spiritually immature and a weak christian. 

As for the record labels, yes, metal music. I find Metal a whole lot more soothing when I've a rough day vs bluegrass or a 4 man acapella group. I get nothing out of those things.

but this:

"

3. Count It Blessing

When I see the wicked

gain the upper hand

When the righteous fall

and are persecuted

And the children beg

for water and shelter

And it feels like

all the walls are caving in

 

Rejoice! In the storm

Rejoice! It will soon pass!

 

And when nothing is quite right

and I cant see Your light

I count it blessing

And when everything falls in place

And I can feel Your grace

I count it blessing

 

Consider it pure joy when you face these trials

knowing that it produces perseverance

 

And when nothing is quite right

and I cant see Your light

I count it blessing

And when everything falls in place

And I can feel Your grace

I count it blessing."

Gives me comfort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zat9YhL2Naw

(posted youtube link for it, I get you'll hate it)

dont have time to get through the rest, I dont submit to scholars, nor man, but God. so again, the tempo arguments or what have you, i find useless and weak. Petra for example has shown what they can do in ministry using rock music, you may dislike it but it doesnt make it less of a ministry.

How can you even understand the vocals? I didn't care for the screaming but at least that was recognizable.

I'm not saying you don't get comfort from this, but I really have no idea how. This sounds more like death metal or something the racist branch of skinheads listen to.

I saw a clip of a J-pop girl metal band and even tho I don't speak Japanese I could at least tell they were singing actual lyrics and pick up some of the meaning. They were also good musicians. I couldn't find comfort in that music, but I could have at least relaxed to it but not to the music in the link you provided.

I don't know of any CCM station that would play the sort of music in that link.

I listened to what was hard rock and heavy metal (along with other forms of music) way back in my teens; such as KISS, AC/DC and similar but that stuff in the link I wouldn't have listened to back then.

Serious question: How can you find comfort in that music?

On another point, I agree the tempo arguments are not persuasive. The idea that certain tempos have a positive or negative effect for everyone is clearly inaccurate. Not everyone responds to music in the same way.

Next: If someone heard the song you linked above, coming from a car stereo or they heard it from an open home window, would their first thought be it was a Christian song or would they think it to be something else?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

i seem to have been shut down for posting in this thread, will pm you my response John :)

I've learned to understand it, some bands are indistinguishable without lyrics infront of you lol.

As for the comfort piece, I don't know if I could give a satisfactory answer to appeal to everyone. So without going into a long winded explanation about where I came from pre christ etc. I find the raw emotion, to come from deep in my heart. It feels authentic to sing to with everything I have vs the alternatives.

Petras version of amazing Grace obviously isn't as heavy as that. (second thief is on one of the heavier ends of metal) but allows me to sing out and bring peace to my heart more than 60 songs on the power point at church.

So this is the disconnect I suppose from me to 99% of everyone else in the ifb baptist realm. I get I'm alone, and there's a lot of discernment involved in selecting bands, CERTAIN SONGS from bands, even albums, however music is the gospel, its not divinely inspired, artists will fail, they wont be as bold as I want all the time, they wont play how I want all the time, but if they are brothers and sisters in the faith, to listen to their struggles and what they are going through and their prayers and to be with them in prayer and in song is encouraging to me. There are a lot of fakes, MOST DEFINITELY. There was a band that claimed the "christian" label, and the lead singer came out and said that they were never christian and wondered how they got away with it as you just had to read their lyrics, he was recently convicted of hiring a hitman to kill his wife (it never happened). But before you slam Christian Metal or scoff at that title, do we scoff and throw away IFB (cough lancaster baptist) for some of the things that happened there? the scandals in ifb? the false accusations? the double standard and pure hatred for anything uncommon to the status quo is completely unnecessary. you dont agree, fine, i still love you but i disagree with some tenants of the argument (yes uke mike, even you I love despite your apparent thinking that I am too self righteous and prideful to hear another view). I just dont agree, you think I'm playing with fire. I think we're missing an opportunity to reach broken hearts and lost souls. You think im sacrificing holiness to do it. I think that bands don't need to sacrifice their integrity and can play the music they enjoy. To me, if I had the ability, I would love to do something like "daily in the word" with guys like this on the road, to keep them accountable and keep their eyes on soul winning. but alas just dreams. To me, and this is just me, but if bands like Bride or Petra would be more acceptable to ifb churches if they sang about the hobby horses in ifb-dom, if they went off on sprinkling, and the king James.


 

Anyway, yes I find guitar riffs soothing and same with heavy drums and I get that doesn't jive with many here, but such is.

As for the first impression piece, I suppose it would depend on the song and when they started listening to it (intros are usually instrumental). I mean 'Reformers' debut album is very blunt and clear

Reformers - the greatest king:

You are the only One found worthy of all the praise/You are my King whom I will love for all my days/Jesus You are the way, the truth and the life/For You I will stand up and give up my life/I will give up my life/I will give up my life for You/Every single person wants a King like Jesus Christ/No matter who you are there are things you can't deny/He's humble and honest and faithful all the time/He's loving and gentle/King of kings, Jesus Christ/You are the bridegroom King/The church: the bride, as one we sing/You're the only One found worthy/You're the only One found worthy of all the praise/You are the greatest King, deserving of full allegiance/You are deserving of more than I can give/I make the choice to honor the King/He's worthy of all the honor and praise/He's worthy/Jesus Christ the King of kings


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsboHo5FlZ4


Not all songs are about worship primarily, some are about homosexuality, political positions etc so for those it may not be super clear. As for stylistically does it make someone go "this is definitely christian" probably not until some lyrics get out.

However other than like, old old hymn tapes I can't say I've ever heard anything that was stylistically blatantly "christian" before vocals came out but again I'm not from the generation of old.

Anyway, I can already see the stones in the hands of a few. But there you go, as much as I can realistically give without getting into my past and why this style of music helps me in my walk.

 

cant edit posts, sorry for the (now) triple post... OB hates my ip at this time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

It isn't different to God. To what purpose is music to be used? You cannot use music that physically (scientifically proven) distresses the body to exhort. You cannot use music that lulls into a hypnotic state (again, scientifically proven) to help bring your thoughts into captivity.

Come on guys, this shouldn't even be an issue. The lost world even knows that Christians shouldn't listen to rock music. Sure, maybe it makes you feel good, but that's not the point of music. Music should be used to draw you closer to God, not make you feel good. I know, for me, drawing closer to God usually consists of me not feeling good, because I'm a dirty, rotten sinner. I have listened to CCM, I have listened to Southern Gospel, and looking back now, if I'm honest, those were the least spiritual times in my life. We need to stop living our Christian life for our comfort and start living for God. You have to get uncomfortable in order to be comforted by God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

It isn't different to God. To what purpose is music to be used? You cannot use music that physically (scientifically proven) distresses the body to exhort. You cannot use music that lulls into a hypnotic state (again, scientifically proven) to help bring your thoughts into captivity.

I'm not sure what you are referring to in the quote. I do know that science is constantly "proving something" only later to decide they were wrong and have now proven something else. Or, science proves something in a limited fashion and then declares it broadly when it's not been proven broadly.

I don't know what "distresses the body to exhort" means. I don't know about your other statement either unless you are referring to something like the ommm, ommm meditative chanting stuff.

God doesn't change. It's interesting that God didn't choose to address music specifically or establish a clear musical standard.

Christians have been debating the issue of music for many centuries now. They didn't all agree back then nor do they today.

Conservative Baptists once rejected the "new, worldly style" of music Moody used but later most embraced it and that music is common in Baptist churches today. What happened? What changed? Were they right or wrong then or now?

This is a long going, on going difference among Christians. Personally, I concern myself with the music in our own church and leave music matter in other churches up to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

What I said was you cannot use music that physically distresses the body to exhort. That is, physical distress is not a means of exhortation.

I disagree that God did not establish a clear musical standard. He did.

Yes Christians have been debating the issue for years, yes "Conservative Baptist" rejected the new worldly style of music Moody used (although to say that that exact style is common in Baptist churches today is somewhat of an assumption [furthermore, I don't generally concern myself with the opinions of Moody, as he was a Methodist]), this is because there has always been those who have an agenda to push and there have always been those who don't understand anything about music, yet try to proclaim what is right or wrong with it based off their opinion.

I care little for what other Christians, Baptist, Musicians, etc. etc. think, I care only for what God thinks. God laid down the purpose of music very plainly in his Word, and to say that He did not tell us in His Word what sort of music to listen to, or to say that music is amoral, or to say that the musical structure has no effect on people, or any other of the excuses that I have heard and have spewed out myself, is to totally ignore the real problem. The problem people have with music is that they want to do what they want to do, and THEY DON"T CARE WHAT GOD THINKS, they will make Him conform to their wants and desires.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

What I said was you cannot use music that physically distresses the body to exhort. That is, physical distress is not a means of exhortation.

I disagree that God did not establish a clear musical standard. He did.

Yes Christians have been debating the issue for years, yes "Conservative Baptist" rejected the new worldly style of music Moody used (although to say that that exact style is common in Baptist churches today is somewhat of an assumption [furthermore, I don't generally concern myself with the opinions of Moody, as he was a Methodist]), this is because there has always been those who have an agenda to push and there have always been those who don't understand anything about music, yet try to proclaim what is right or wrong with it based off their opinion.

I care little for what other Christians, Baptist, Musicians, etc. etc. think, I care only for what God thinks. God laid down the purpose of music very plainly in his Word, and to say that He did not tell us in His Word what sort of music to listen to, or to say that music is amoral, or to say that the musical structure has no effect on people, or any other of the excuses that I have heard and have spewed out myself, is to totally ignore the real problem. The problem people have with music is that they want to do what they want to do, and THEY DON"T CARE WHAT GOD THINKS, they will make Him conform to their wants and desires.

Another big problem Christians have with music, is that so many are ignorant about it-it comes down to what feels good to them, not what is holy and sanctified, which is what God demands.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

"God laid down the purpose of music very plainly in his Word"

Could you post this please?

Is there only one purpose for music? Is church the only place for music?

Myself, I also base my views from the Word of God. The point in looking at the fact music has long been debated throughout the centuries of Christianity is simply to point out the long held differing views on music from Scripture and at least a perceived lack of a clear, accepted standard in Scripture. This is why no matter the music standards of any of our churches today, it's likely churches 200 years ago would have objected to some or all of what we use. Go back through the centuries and what we consider to be conservative, sound biblical music today would have been denounced and unaccepted.

There are indeed those who listen to music, or even reject music, based solely or primarily upon their own tastes or preferences. At the same time, there are those who have studied the matter out, determined their stance based upon that study, and yet many come to different conclusions and the music they use and reject reflects that.

What music the church down the road, across the nation or around the world uses or rejects is between them and God. If music becomes an issue in our home churches we should certainly address it then and there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

The purpose of music is to praise God (Psalm 150, Psalm 33:3). Is that the only purpose of music? No, of course not. However, it is CHRISTIAN music that is in question. We aren't debating classical, folk music, or even country or rock. The issue is "What is the purpose of Christian music". Now if the purpose of music is to praise God then you can easily see what sort of music you should listen to by looking at how you praise God. It's just that simple.

 

And I will reiterate that I really couldn't care less what churches 200 years ago thought, I care about what God thinks. Most churches 200 years ago believed that the only acceptable music Scripture put to music. It isn't that I'm ignorant of what churches 200 years ago thought or believed, it's that what the churches 200 years ago is irrelevant

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

"God laid down the purpose of music very plainly in his Word"

Could you post this please?

Is there only one purpose for music? Is church the only place for music?

Myself, I also base my views from the Word of God. The point in looking at the fact music has long been debated throughout the centuries of Christianity is simply to point out the long held differing views on music from Scripture and at least a perceived lack of a clear, accepted standard in Scripture. This is why no matter the music standards of any of our churches today, it's likely churches 200 years ago would have objected to some or all of what we use. Go back through the centuries and what we consider to be conservative, sound biblical music today would have been denounced and unaccepted.

There are indeed those who listen to music, or even reject music, based solely or primarily upon their own tastes or preferences. At the same time, there are those who have studied the matter out, determined their stance based upon that study, and yet many come to different conclusions and the music they use and reject reflects that.

What music the church down the road, across the nation or around the world uses or rejects is between them and God. If music becomes an issue in our home churches we should certainly address it then and there.

Just because there's no clear consensus on music doesn't mean much-there is still no clear consensus on who Jesus was by many who claim the name Christian, going back, oh my, to the second century. There is no clear consensus on they way of salvation, or security of said salvation. People have always argued, many insisting on ignoring scripture or reinterpreting it. By the way, that is NOT what I am implying you or anyone else here is doing-just saying that there are a lot of areas that even so-called Christians can't agree on, despite clear scripture, that its no surprise there isn't a consensus when we need to seek guidance in areas that may not be quite as plain, yet are covered anyways.

Considering how there are those who really choose NOT to discern anything beyond plain, exact things, (like Smoking is fine because the Bible doesn't say NOT to smoke), how can we expect this type of person to try to apply such broad statements concepts as separation from worldliness to virtually anything? I mean, what IS worldliness? What IS carnality? If we can't answer this, if we are afraid to hurt someone's feelings, or afraid of stopping our own enjoyment, how can we please God in ALL things? And like anything else, there MUST be a way to establish whether or not some music is, or isn't carnal, else we just accept ALL music is, which itself is crazy because it is so influential, we know the Devil must have his hand in it.   Music can be used for seduction, to incite deep emotion, happiness, anger, violence, pride, patriotism, sadness-it can't possibly be neutral. And that music is wordless music, no lyrics, just music. So it MUST be judged, for we are to try ALL things, whether they are of God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Just because there's no clear consensus on music doesn't mean much-there is still no clear consensus on who Jesus was by many who claim the name Christian, going back, oh my, to the second century. There is no clear consensus on they way of salvation, or security of said salvation. People have always argued, many insisting on ignoring scripture or reinterpreting it. By the way, that is NOT what I am implying you or anyone else here is doing-just saying that there are a lot of areas that even so-called Christians can't agree on, despite clear scripture, that its no surprise there isn't a consensus when we need to seek guidance in areas that may not be quite as plain, yet are covered anyways.

Considering how there are those who really choose NOT to discern anything beyond plain, exact things, (like Smoking is fine because the Bible doesn't say NOT to smoke), how can we expect this type of person to try to apply such broad statements concepts as separation from worldliness to virtually anything? I mean, what IS worldliness? What IS carnality? If we can't answer this, if we are afraid to hurt someone's feelings, or afraid of stopping our own enjoyment, how can we please God in ALL things? And like anything else, there MUST be a way to establish whether or not some music is, or isn't carnal, else we just accept ALL music is, which itself is crazy because it is so influential, we know the Devil must have his hand in it.   Music can be used for seduction, to incite deep emotion, happiness, anger, violence, pride, patriotism, sadness-it can't possibly be neutral. And that music is wordless music, no lyrics, just music. So it MUST be judged, for we are to try ALL things, whether they are of God.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for an anything goes view. I'm only discussing what's actually and what isn't.

Also, when I'm referring to different views among Christians, either now or centuries ago, I'm only referring to actual Christians.

As I've indicated elsewhere, can't remember if it was in this thread or not, I absolutely believe there are standards to be determined, applied and held to.

It would help if we were to define whether we are discussing music in churches, music for personal listening, or what.

I know of churches that will declare playing a piano accompanied singing of the Getty's song "In Christ Alone" is worldly, those who will say a Bluegrass version of "I'll Fly Away" is fleshly, yet they will play unbiblical, non-Christ honouring patriotic type songs which gets their congregation riled up, puffed up, sometimes clapping and shouting, but state that's not worldly or fleshly.

The fact that sound men of God have come down over a wide range of the musical spectrum on this matter would seem to indicate the topic isn't simple.

Personally, I agree that what particular men have done in the past, or do today, what they have written in books or reported from studies, isn't the key factor. In fact, we would likely be better off going by Scripture alone. Yet even those who claim to stand on Scripture alone often cite very little Scripture and a whole lot of studies, opinions of certain men, etc. While doing so they are quick to denounce those of another position who do the same. (If I worded that right it should be clear I'm speaking of such coming from many directions towards all other directions)

Now, seeing we are Independent, with each church establishing their own distinctives, should we be spending our time finding out what music other Independent churches use, or don't use, and then telling them they must change if they don't match our own? How many of us would welcome outsiders to our church who were intent upon telling us what we are doing is wrong and telling us all the things they say we should change?

Music does have an effect upon the hearer, but the effect isn't the same upon each hearer. The effect can also be very different from one race, ethnicity, nationality, region to another. In some cases, music can have a different effect upon men than women (and the other way).

I know of choir directors who have had difficulty when trying to combine whites and blacks in a choir when they haven't done so before. Whites tend to respond on 2 and 4 while blacks tend to respond on 1 and 3 (speaking of Americans here). I've heard preachers discuss this issue too.

We often focus on a very limited portion of churches and Christians; typically white American Christians. Go into black, Hispanic, Korean, Indian, Albanian and other churches in America and the music is typically very different. Go even further, into churches in other nations and the differences and varieties are greatly expounded. Again, I'm referring to actual Christians, not secular.

Even limiting a discussion to songs a large group agrees is acceptable, there are those who have different reactions to the songs.

As I've mentioned several times on OB, I like Bluegrass Gospel. Many people use the same basic arguments against Bluegrass Gospel as they do against CCM. While a smaller percentage, there are those who use the same arguments to go against hymns or musical instruments in a church.

Wherever we draw the line there will always be those we disagree with and those who disagree with us. Are we to battle this out back and forth, one church against another, or could this be better addressed within our own home church?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...