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Eve's Transgression?

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Maybe this timeline will help with some analysis?

Gen 2:15 - God puts Adam in the Garden to dress it (serve in/labor) and keep it (keep/guard/observe)

Gen 2:17 - God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil

Gen 2:21-25 - God creates Eve

Gen 3:1 - The serpent asks if God told them not to eat of every tree

Gen 3:2-3 - Eve says they can eat of every tree except the one and adds the requirement not to touch

At this point, there are 3 possibilities (as mentioned by several people above):

  1. God reiterated and expounded on the command after Eve was created
  2. Adam passed on the command and added that Eve shouldn't touch it. Eve relayed the command as she heard it.
  3. God reiterated or Adam passed on the original command without addition. Eve added the requirement when talking to the serpent.

Gen 3:6 - Eve takes the fruit, eat is, and gives it to Adam who also eats it.

The verse suggests that Adam was there during the encounter and he did not correct her. It is also one long sentence that lists events but does not necessarily specify time order. the entire phrase "with her; and he did eat" is actually one Hebrew word. I suppose then, it is also possible that they ate simultaneously.

Anything we come up with is obviously speculation, but it stands to reason that Eve making up the new rule not to touch on the fly is unlikely given Adam's lack of intervention or correction. Therefore, either God added or Adam added it, which means Eve did not knowingly twist God's Word. That would put the responsibility back on Adam then wouldn't it?

 

There is a number 4 for your speculations....Eve could have misunderstood Adam.  Maybe Adam said "God said don't eat it or you will die, and don't even touch it....without emphasizing or making clear that "don't even touch it" was Adam's personal advice desiring to help Eve avoid the temptation to eat it.  It was a good looking fruit, tempting to touch it, and once touched the temptation to eat could grow.  Maybe Eve though Adam was saying God said not to touch it when really Adam added that part in himself.....it wouldn't be the first time a woman heard something from a man which he never said....oh wait, maybe it was the first time.  Well it certainly was not the last time.

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there is no need to conclude that either Adam or Eve lied if God did not say "thou shalt not touch the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."  If she believed that was what God said, she was not lying.  If Adam said something to her that was unclear and she drew a conclusion she thought was correct, there was no lying involved.  A mistake is not a lie.

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Just my "two cents."

I myself have never believed that Eve misrepresented God's Word on the matter.  If she had, then this falsehood would have been the first sin of humanity; and it would have been a sin of willful falsehood, not of deceived transgression (as 1 Timothy 2:14 reports concerning Eve's part "in the transgression").  

Now, the timeline of the creations, commandment, and temptation has been given already, as follows:

1.  The Lord God created Adam.
2.  The Lord God commanded Adam not to eat of the forbidden tree.
3.  The Lord God created Adam's wife, Eve.
4.  The Serpent, the Devil, tempted and deceived Eve.

However, I wish to bring forward a grammatical element in relation to this timeline, as follows:

1.  In Genesis 2:17 the Lord God delivered His commandment unto Adam, saying, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."  Herein the Lord God employed the pronoun "thou" three times.  This pronoun is a singular pronoun; therefore, in delivering this command the Lord God was only speaking to a single individual.  Even so, this would be appropriate in the context since Adam's wife Eve had not yet been created, such that the Lord God was indeed only speaking to Adam himself.  

2.  In Genesis 3:3 Eve delivered her report of the Lord God's command, saying, "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."  Herein Eve employed the pronoun "ye" three times.  This pronoun is a plural pronoun, indicating a command that was delivered by the Lord God Himself (as per the phrase, "God hath said") unto more than one person.  Since there is no indication within this context or within the Lord God's rebuke against Eve that she had falsely misrepresented God, and since there is no indication in 1 Timothy 2:13-15 that Eve had transgressed by speaking falsely, I would contend in accord with the plural pronouns that Eve employed that the Lord God reiterated His command unto Adam and Eve as a group sometime after Eve was created.  Furthermore, I would contend that Eve reported the Lord God's command with perfect accuracy.

Some thoughts to consider -- Did "the voice of the LORD God" regularly meet and walk with Adam and Eve "in the cool of the day"?  If He did, then there is a significant amount of communication between them that is not recorded in the Scriptures.  As such, is it likely that Eve was directly quoting out of that unrecorded communication?

no way was Eve quoting God directly or Adam's eyes would have been opened when he touched the fruit, before he ate it.  If touching the fruit was breaking God's command, Eve sinned the moment she touched it before she ate, and the same for Adam...the fall was one step, not two.  It was one sin, not two in one.

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It won't bother me at all if you derail the thread...unless you feel the topic(s) of your questions deserve their own thread. I really don't mind, but it's up to you. 

thanks, this is a pretty good discussion and has been on topic throughout so maybe I'll put those other questions in other threads.

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First, Brother "Saintnow," I did not quote you in order to contend with you directly, but in order to present you as an example of a commonly held view.

Second, there actually is something said "about exactly who told Eve whatever about eating of the tree;" and there actually is something that says "it was God who said not to touch the fruit."  As recorded under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit in Genesis 3:3, Eve herself made the following claim, "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."  Eve did not give the report that Adam told her that God had said.  Eve did not give the report that God had said something to which Adam then added in giving to her.  Eve gave the report that God had said what she then quoted.  Now, either Eve spoke the truth in this statement; or she spoke a falsehood.  If she spoke the truth, then God Himself had said, "Ye [plural, which is different than the command statement in Genesis 2:17] shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it [which whole statement is different than the command statement in Genesis 2:17], lest ye die." 

I myself choose to believe that Eve was giving a truthful report.  Why?  First, because there is no indication anywhere in the context of Genesis 3 that Eve was speaking falsely when she gave this report.  Second, because if she was not giving a truthful report, then the first human sin was speaking a lie (not eating of the fruit).  Yet there is no indication anywhere in all of Scripture that Eve spoke falsely or that the first human sin was speaking falsely. 

____________________________________________________________

Brother "Saintnow,"

Now, with the remainder of my posting, I do wish to speak more directly to you.  You posted a second posting while I was yet in the midst of preparing that which I presented just above in this posting.  I desire to respond directly to that posting.

Indeed, there is a danger in doing so.  That is the reason that we should stay as close to that which is actually recorded in the Scriptures as we are able.  It is interesting that after you provided the above warning, then you yourself proceeded to engage in "things that are speculative and not directly revealed in God's Word," as follows:

Concerning the belief or lack of belief that "there was any command from God regarding touching the fruit," Eve herself did make the claim that God said it. 

I would rather contend that God did make such a command in accord with the record of God's Word concerning Eve's report to that very effect, than to completely conjecture concerning what Adam may have reported to Eve, when God's Word gives not a single word concerning any such communication on Adam's part to that effect.

I pray that this set of statements was intended as a joke.  However, even as a joke these statements present a Biblical falsehood.  First, God did not rest after He mad the man.  Rather, after the Lord God made the man, then He gave the following report in Genesis 2:18 -- "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."  Second, God did not only created the man in His own image; for the report of Genesis 1:26 is -- "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them . . . ."  Again the report of Genesis 1:27 is -- "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."  Third, it is only after God made the woman as a wife and helper meet for the man that He declared all which He had created to be "very good" and that He proceeded to rest on the seventh day.  Fourth, it was the sin of the first man Adam, not the sin of the his wife, that was committed with willful, knowing rebellion (as opposed to deception) and that caused the entire universe and the entire human race to be plagued with corruption and continuing "unrest."

 

Ok, I stand corrected, there was something said about who said not to touch the fruit.  Eve said that God said it, but there is no recording of when God said that or exactly who he said it to.....so my conclusion is that since touching the fruit did not result in death, touching the fruit was not sin and it was not a violation of God's command and it is therefore impossible that God gave that command or Adam's eyes would have been opened before he ate of the fruit, not after.  There is no reason to believe anybody lied in the matter, as Adam could have told Eve "God said not to eat of the forbidden fruit or you will die" and Adam himself could have added as a command for his wife's own good, "and don't even touch it", not saying that God said not to touch it and Eve thinking Adam meant that God said it and misquoting it as God's word based on her misunderstanding of what Adam said would me she was wrong about what God said, and misquoting God, but not lying and neither did Adam lie when he failed to make it clear that it was only him adding "do not touch it".

I never imagined this subject could be so controversial....but I simply can't begin to believe that God said not to touch the fruit because that would have been the first sin and Adam's eyes would have been opened before he ate of the fruit.   I think they would have been running to hide from God and putting fig leaves together in fear before Adam ate the fruit, I think his eyes would have been opened in shock of his sin and he would have dropped the fruit before he ate it and they would have been off and running.

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First, Brother "Saintnow," I did not quote you in order to contend with you directly, but in order to present you as an example of a commonly held view.

Second, there actually is something said "about exactly who told Eve whatever about eating of the tree;" and there actually is something that says "it was God who said not to touch the fruit."  As recorded under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit in Genesis 3:3, Eve herself made the following claim, "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."  Eve did not give the report that Adam told her that God had said.  Eve did not give the report that God had said something to which Adam then added in giving to her.  Eve gave the report that God had said what she then quoted.  Now, either Eve spoke the truth in this statement; or she spoke a falsehood.  If she spoke the truth, then God Himself had said, "Ye [plural, which is different than the command statement in Genesis 2:17] shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it [which whole statement is different than the command statement in Genesis 2:17], lest ye die." 

I myself choose to believe that Eve was giving a truthful report.  Why?  First, because there is no indication anywhere in the context of Genesis 3 that Eve was speaking falsely when she gave this report.  Second, because if she was not giving a truthful report, then the first human sin was speaking a lie (not eating of the fruit).  Yet there is no indication anywhere in all of Scripture that Eve spoke falsely or that the first human sin was speaking falsely. 

____________________________________________________________

Brother "Saintnow,"

Now, with the remainder of my posting, I do wish to speak more directly to you.  You posted a second posting while I was yet in the midst of preparing that which I presented just above in this posting.  I desire to respond directly to that posting.

Indeed, there is a danger in doing so.  That is the reason that we should stay as close to that which is actually recorded in the Scriptures as we are able.  It is interesting that after you provided the above warning, then you yourself proceeded to engage in "things that are speculative and not directly revealed in God's Word," as follows:

Concerning the belief or lack of belief that "there was any command from God regarding touching the fruit," Eve herself did make the claim that God said it. 

I would rather contend that God did make such a command in accord with the record of God's Word concerning Eve's report to that very effect, than to completely conjecture concerning what Adam may have reported to Eve, when God's Word gives not a single word concerning any such communication on Adam's part to that effect.

I pray that this set of statements was intended as a joke.  However, even as a joke these statements present a Biblical falsehood.  First, God did not rest after He mad the man.  Rather, after the Lord God made the man, then He gave the following report in Genesis 2:18 -- "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."  Second, God did not only created the man in His own image; for the report of Genesis 1:26 is -- "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them . . . ."  Again the report of Genesis 1:27 is -- "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."  Third, it is only after God made the woman as a wife and helper meet for the man that He declared all which He had created to be "very good" and that He proceeded to rest on the seventh day.  Fourth, it was the sin of the first man Adam, not the sin of the his wife, that was committed with willful, knowing rebellion (as opposed to deception) and that caused the entire universe and the entire human race to be plagued with corruption and continuing "unrest."

 

Eve was deceived before she ate of the fruit.  Being deceived was not sin.  Touching the fruit was not sin.  If Adam would have tackled her and knocked the fruit out of her hand before she sunk her perfect little teeth into it, he would have at least temporarily prevented the fall of man but when she brought the fruit to him it was too late, she had already eaten, he took the fruit, looked at her and took the lovers leap into mutual death when he ate it.  Since their eyes did not open to death when Adam touched the fruit, but only after he ate it, obviously touching the fruit was not breaking God's command in the matter and therefore He never actually said to not touch the fruit.  Eve saying God said not to touch it came from a miscommunication or misunderstanding somewhere along the line and it was not sin however it got in there.  There was no sin until Eve ate, and then gave to her husband and he did eat......then and only then were their eyes opened and they were dead, bound to bury their dead....dead men walking with eyes opened knowing they had sinned after they ate, not after they touched.  God never commanded them not to touch.  It had to come from Adam, or maybe Eve was simply on the blonde side and had a habit of embellishing the truth a little....and even if Adam lied in telling Eve that God said not to touch it, for Adam who was not yet a sinner it was not sin.  There was only one rule given to mankind.  Before the fall of man, there was no sin in mankind, and the fall came through eating the fruit.....touching the fruit was not sin or Adam would have been open-eyed walking dead with Eve before he ate that fruit...probably would have not eaten the fruit at all, just dropped it and ran to hide in the figs with Eve...he would not have needed to eat it to be in sin since touching it would have been sin if God said not to touch it. 

Edited by Saintnow

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 As recorded under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit in Genesis 3:3, Eve herself made the following claim, "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."  Eve did not give the report that Adam told her that God had said.  Eve did not give the report that God had said something to which Adam then added in giving to her.  Eve gave the report that God had said what she then quoted.  Now, either Eve spoke the truth in this statement; or she spoke a falsehood.  If she spoke the truth, then God Himself had said, "Ye [plural, which is different than the command statement in Genesis 2:17] shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it [which whole statement is different than the command statement in Genesis 2:17], lest ye die." 

 

Eve giving a report that God said something is not proof that God actually said it.   "As recorded under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit in  Bible in"  many places,  people ascribe sayings to God which God never said.  Because Adam did not die when he touched the fruit, but died after he ate the fruit, I have to conclude that God gave no commandment against touching the fruit and Eve was mistaken for some reason, or maybe Eve actually knowingly lied in the matter saying God said not to touch it.  If she did, for her it was not sin.  For us it would be sin.  If you can prove in the Bible that the sinless Eve would have been sinning if she lied, (and I will not accept the Ten Commandments for that proof since that Law was given to sinners and not to Adam and Eve before they were sinners)  then the addition of "do not touch" and the claim that God said it can easily be explained as a miscommunication or misunderstanding between Adam and her, or even as a blonde-headed misunderstanding or embellishment on Eve's own part which was not a lie but rather a mistake or misspoken concept.

 

 

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So then, our options are as follows:

1.  God reiterated the command to both Adam and Eve, yet Eve misrepresented God by adding the phrase concerning not touching.

Biblical evidence -- None whatsoever, just human conjecture.

2.  Adam reported God's command to Eve, yet Eve misrepresented Adam and God by adding the phrase concerning not touching.

Biblical evidence -- None whatsoever, just human conjecture.

3.  Adam misrepresented God's command to Eve by adding the phrase concerning not touching, and Eve reported Adam's misrepresentation.

Biblical evidence -- None whatsoever, just human conjecture.

4.  Adam reported God's command to Eve and added his own standard of not touching, and Eve misunderstood Adam's report by attributing the added standard to God.

Biblical evidence -- None whatsoever, just human conjecture.

5.  Adam reported God's command to Eve and added his own standard of not touching, and Eve misrepresented Adam's report by attributing the added standard to God.

Biblical evidence -- None whatsoever, just human conjecture.

Concerning all of these options, I wish to present the following warning of another --

There is a danger in claiming to know facts in things that are speculative and not directly revealed in God's word. 

6.  God reiterated the command to both Adam and Eve and added the phrase concerning not touching, and Eve reported God's command accurately.

Biblical evidence -- The biblical record of Genesis 3:3 wherein Eve reports this very quote from God, "God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

I myself choose to accept Eve's word on this matter for the following reasons:

1.  It is the only option that actually possesses any Biblical evidence whatsoever.
2.  Eve made this claim while she was yet in the condition of a sinless character.
3.  There is no Biblically recorded rebuke anywhere against Eve for misrepresenting either God or Adam.
4.  There is no Biblically recorded indication anywhere that Eve misrepresented either God or Adam.

So then, with the Biblical evidence of Eve's claim and without any Biblical evidence to counter that claim, I will accept her claim as the very truth.

 

Yet there is one declaration of absolute conviction that stands against this position, as follows:

No way was Eve quoting God directly or Adam's eyes would have been opened when he touched the fruit, before he ate it.  If touching the fruit was breaking God's command, Eve sinned the moment she touched it before she ate, and the same for Adam...the fall was one step, not two.  It was one sin, not two in one.

 

Eve said that God said it, but there is no recording of when God said that or exactly who he said it to.....so my conclusion is that since touching the fruit did not result in death, touching the fruit was not sin and it was not a violation of God's command and it is therefore impossible that God gave that command or Adam's eyes would have been opened before he ate of the fruit, not after

 

Since their eyes did not open to death when Adam touched the fruit, but only after he ate it, obviously touching the fruit was not breaking God's command in the matter and therefore He never actually said to not touch the fruit.  Eve saying God said not to touch it came from a miscommunication or misunderstanding somewhere along the line and it was not sin however it got in there.  There was no sin until Eve ate, and then gave to her husband and he did eat......then and only then were their eyes opened and they were dead, bound to bury their dead....dead men walking with eyes opened knowing they had sinned after they ate, not after they touched.  God never commanded them not to touch.

(Note: These three quotes are from three different postings by the same author, Brother "Saintnow."  Also, all emboldening and underlining was added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Throughout, the premise of this absolute conviction and absolute declaration is basically the following:

Adam's eyes were not opened to death until after the moment that he ate of the forbidden fruit, not at the moment when he touched the fruit; therefore, touching the fruit could not have been sin and thus could not have been forbidden directly by God.

Now, there are a few problems with this premise, as follows:

1.  In neither of the two reports of the command, not in the report of God's Word in Genesis 2:17 or in the report of Eve in Genesis 3:3, is there any statement whatsoever about when eyes would be opened unto anything.  Therefore, to make claims about when eyes should or should not, could or could not, would or would not be opened throughout the process is not Biblically founded, since God's Word does not reveal this information.  In fact, God's Word only gives us the report that their eyes were opened and at what point in the process this happened.  However, God's Word does not tell us exactly why this happened at the exact moment that it did.  So then, the above premise is based upon a bit of human speculation.

2.  The first sin was in fact a process, just as in the case of any sin.  First, there is the temptation, the drawing away and enticing of one's lust.  Second, there is the conception of the lust, wherein the heart and mind make the decision to engage in the sin.  Third, there is the birthing of the sinful activity itself.  Fourth, there is the bring forth of death.  In the case of Eve's and Adam's sin, this process was also present.  First, the serpent tempted Eve.  Second, Eve came to agreement in her heart with the serpent, seeing the fruit in her mind as something good for her.  Third, she took of the fruit.  Fourth, she ate of the fruit.  First, Eve tempted Adam by offering him of the fruit and inviting him to join with her in eating.  Second, Adam willfully decided to join with his wife in eating, although he was not at all deceived and thus knew full well that it was not at all good for him.  Third, Adam took of the fruit from Eve's hand.  Fourth, Adam ate of the fruit along with his wife.  In both cases the sin began with a decision, not with an action.  Yet in this case the decision was acted out within seconds, for the entire process of decision, taking, and eating could not have taken more than 4-5 seconds as a whole.  

3.  Upon what Biblical evidence may we conclude at what point the corruption of death began, whether at the point of decision, at the point of touching, or at the point of eating?  Is there any statement at all in the passage concerning precisely when this occurred?  If not, then why would we seek to make absolute declarations of interpretation upon the foundation of information that is not precisely revealed?

4.  Finally, simply as a thought question -- How long might it have taken for the conviction of conscience and the consciousness of corruption to open their eyes unto full understanding of their new sinful condition?  I would suppose that it did not take long.  However, even if it took a few seconds, the entire process of sin (decision, taking, and eating) would have been completed before the opening of the eyes unto understanding.

 

 

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sorry, I should have dropped it.

no need to beat a dead horse...sorry

Brother "Saintnow," (It would be nice to know your given last name in order that I might address you respectfully with it.)

If your above two statements were a public request for forgiveness for having not "dropped it" and having "beat a dead horse," then I wish to publicly express my forgiveness.

(Note: I fully recognize that this does not indicate your change in position or your agreement with my position on the subject under discussion-debate.)

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So then, our options are as follows:

1.  God reiterated the command to both Adam and Eve, yet Eve misrepresented God by adding the phrase concerning not touching.

Biblical evidence -- None whatsoever, just human conjecture.

2.  Adam reported God's command to Eve, yet Eve misrepresented Adam and God by adding the phrase concerning not touching.

Biblical evidence -- None whatsoever, just human conjecture.

3.  Adam misrepresented God's command to Eve by adding the phrase concerning not touching, and Eve reported Adam's misrepresentation.

Biblical evidence -- None whatsoever, just human conjecture.

4.  Adam reported God's command to Eve and added his own standard of not touching, and Eve misunderstood Adam's report by attributing the added standard to God.

Biblical evidence -- None whatsoever, just human conjecture.

5.  Adam reported God's command to Eve and added his own standard of not touching, and Eve misrepresented Adam's report by attributing the added standard to God.

Biblical evidence -- None whatsoever, just human conjecture.

Concerning all of these options, I wish to present the following warning of another --

6.  God reiterated the command to both Adam and Eve and added the phrase concerning not touching, and Eve reported God's command accurately.

Biblical evidence -- The biblical record of Genesis 3:3 wherein Eve reports this very quote from God, "God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

I myself choose to accept Eve's word on this matter for the following reasons:

1.  It is the only option that actually possesses any Biblical evidence whatsoever.
2.  Eve made this claim while she was yet in the condition of a sinless character.
3.  There is no Biblically recorded rebuke anywhere against Eve for misrepresenting either God or Adam.
4.  There is no Biblically recorded indication anywhere that Eve misrepresented either God or Adam.

So then, with the Biblical evidence of Eve's claim and without any Biblical evidence to counter that claim, I will accept her claim as the very truth.

 

Yet there is one declaration of absolute conviction that stands against this position, as follows:

Throughout, the premise of this absolute conviction and absolute declaration is basically the following:

Adam's eyes were not opened to death until after the moment that he ate of the forbidden fruit, not at the moment when he touched the fruit; therefore, touching the fruit could not have been sin and thus could not have been forbidden directly by God.

Now, there are a few problems with this premise, as follows:

1.  In neither of the two reports of the command, not in the report of God's Word in Genesis 2:17 or in the report of Eve in Genesis 3:3, is there any statement whatsoever about when eyes would be opened unto anything.  Therefore, to make claims about when eyes should or should not, could or could not, would or would not be opened throughout the process is not Biblically founded, since God's Word does not reveal this information.  In fact, God's Word only gives us the report that their eyes were opened and at what point in the process this happened.  However, God's Word does not tell us exactly why this happened at the exact moment that it did.  So then, the above premise is based upon a bit of human speculation.

2.  The first sin was in fact a process, just as in the case of any sin.  First, there is the temptation, the drawing away and enticing of one's lust.  Second, there is the conception of the lust, wherein the heart and mind make the decision to engage in the sin.  Third, there is the birthing of the sinful activity itself.  Fourth, there is the bring forth of death.  In the case of Eve's and Adam's sin, this process was also present.  First, the serpent tempted Eve.  Second, Eve came to agreement in her heart with the serpent, seeing the fruit in her mind as something good for her.  Third, she took of the fruit.  Fourth, she ate of the fruit.  First, Eve tempted Adam by offering him of the fruit and inviting him to join with her in eating.  Second, Adam willfully decided to join with his wife in eating, although he was not at all deceived and thus knew full well that it was not at all good for him.  Third, Adam took of the fruit from Eve's hand.  Fourth, Adam ate of the fruit along with his wife.  In both cases the sin began with a decision, not with an action.  Yet in this case the decision was acted out within seconds, for the entire process of decision, taking, and eating could not have taken more than 4-5 seconds as a whole.  

3.  Upon what Biblical evidence may we conclude at what point the corruption of death began, whether at the point of decision, at the point of touching, or at the point of eating?  Is there any statement at all in the passage concerning precisely when this occurred?  If not, then why would we seek to make absolute declarations of interpretation upon the foundation of information that is not precisely revealed?

4.  Finally, simply as a thought question -- How long might it have taken for the conviction of conscience and the consciousness of corruption to open their eyes unto full understanding of their new sinful condition?  I would suppose that it did not take long.  However, even if it took a few seconds, the entire process of sin (decision, taking, and eating) would have been completed before the opening of the eyes unto understanding.

 

 

If I may, I'd like to submit as a possibility that all of the steps in this process are, in essence, one singular sin that took began at the decision to disobey which took place before the touch. As you mentioned, it all probably happened in such a rapid succession as to be indistinguishable. There is no reason to think Adam took the fruit, held it for 30 minutes while he wrestled with his conscience about whether or not to eat it. It is possible that he willfully sinned before even touching the fruit and the eating of it was merely a completion of the action. Consider Matt 5:28 in which Jesus declares that the sin of adultery occurs in the heart before action is ever taken. Perhaps, then, it should be considered one all-encompassing act as opposed to a series of actions that led to a sin?

Edited by TheSword
horrible grammar...got distracted and had to fix it

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James 1:13 (KJV) 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:14 (KJV) 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

James 1:15 (KJV) 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

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I have thoughts on what the "touching" of the fruit could have possibly referred to...especially with the Hebrew meaning of "touch"; however, it's conjecture, so I'm not going to post it.  ;)

I will say this, I don't believe that it refers to simply "touching" the fruit as we think of touching something with our fingers...in other words, it's more than just a sensory perception.

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Brother "Saintnow," (It would be nice to know your given last name in order that I might address you respectfully with it.)

If your above two statements were a public request for forgiveness for having not "dropped it" and having "beat a dead horse," then I wish to publicly express my forgiveness.

(Note: I fully recognize that this does not indicate your change in position or your agreement with my position on the subject under discussion-debate.)

If you concede that it is possible Eve misunderstood Adam when Adam told her what God said about the fruit, and it is possible God never actually said "do not touch it", and it is possible that Eve ascribed those words to God mistakenly and not purposely misrepresenting or lying about what God said,  then  I'll visit your church when I am out that way and tell you my last name when I get there.  Otherwise, I respect your office as a pastor carrying the burden of your flock and you can teach them however you feel led and I'd rather not get in the middle of it because I cannot concede to believing it is possible God actually told Eve not to touch the fruit, much less Adam and Eve both after He commanded Adam to not touch it or die the day he did.  Sorry.  I really don't want to beat a dead horse.

A former pastor over me around 30 yrs back pastors a church around the bay in the thumb area, I forget which city at the moment, but he is the pastor who showed me the simplicity and value of believing we have God's word preserved in English.

Edited by Saintnow

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I have thoughts on what the "touching" of the fruit could have possibly referred to...especially with the Hebrew meaning of "touch"; however, it's conjecture, so I'm not going to post it.  ;)

I will say this, I don't believe that it refers to simply "touching" the fruit as we think of touching something with our fingers...in other words, it's more than just a sensory perception.

Eve believed God said not to touch the fruit, or she lied when she said God said not to touch it.  Why does touching it have to be so complicated?  The story is not that complicated, and neither is the meaning of the word "touch".  I think people are trying to read way too much into the story.

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Eve believed God said not to touch the fruit, or she lied when she said God said not to touch it.  Why does touching it have to be so complicated?  The story is not that complicated, and neither is the meaning of the word "touch".  I think people are trying to read way too much into the story.

I agree, and I respect your position. It's not complicated, and at the same time, I don't believe that what I have learned through my study to be complicated either. I'm not claiming that I'm right...just sharing my thoughts... 

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If you concede that it is possible Eve misunderstood Adam when Adam told her what God said about the fruit, and it is possible God never actually said "do not touch it", and it is possible that Eve ascribed those words to God mistakenly and not purposely misrepresenting or lying about what God said,  then  I'll visit your church when I am out that way and tell you my last name when I get there.  Otherwise, I respect your office as a pastor carrying the burden of your flock and you can teach them however you feel led and I'd rather not get in the middle of it because I cannot concede to believing it is possible God actually told Eve not to touch the fruit, much less Adam and Eve both after He commanded Adam to not touch it or die the day he did.  Sorry.  I really don't want to beat a dead horse.

Brother "Saintnow,"

Respectfully, I am honestly unable to concede any of the points that you have requested for me to concede.  Indeed, I am honestly unable to concede from a position that possesses some Biblical support to a position that possesses no Biblical support.

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The Biblical support of my position is clear, that God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and when he ate he disobeyed God and his eyes were opened.  These things are simple and plain in the text.  To say there is no Biblical support for the position that sin in our earthly father began when he disobeyed God in eating the fruit,. knowing that eating was direct and wilful disobedience, is a condescending insult.  Eve was deceived.  Adam knew he was disobeying God when he ate of the fruit.   These statements are so easily shown in the Bible that I don't think I need to quote the OT and NT chapter and verses.   To extend Eve's words which  she ascribed to God back to Adam and say God told Adam not to touch the fruit  and build a doctrine on conversations between Adam, Eve, and God which are not recorded in the Bible is mysticism and not Biblical.  Calvinists do the same kind of scripture wrangling.  This discussion in my thirty years as a Bible believer is honestly the first time I ever saw such mystical mystery doctrinal speculation of the original sin being touching the fruit rather than Adam eating the fruit in direct disobedience to God.  I have before heard some perverted teachings of touching or eating the forbidden fruit being sexualized and don't think such perverted mysticism merits discussion.  I have never had anything more to say in that matter than "that's sick".

The idea that touching the fruit was breaking God's command can only be found in Eve's words and nowhere else in scripture.  I have seen a lot of metaphysical mystical speculations about the meaning of touch and the origin of sin being anything other that the direct disobedience of Adam in eating the fruit.  Why Adam's direct disobedience is ignored while all kinds of mysteriously worded constructs of when sin originated in man is to me a bit disappointing. 

There is no Biblical proof that Eve was not misunderstanding or misquoting something Adam said to her.  All this Greek analysis of "ye" on which to build this mystical doctrine of the first sin being touching the fruit.  The story always seemed simple to me.  I never imagined Christians would complicate this matter so, and I see absolutely no value or importance in believing the first sin was touching the fruit.... and then some have even mystically added to that idea saying the sin was in thinking about touching it.  Adam did not sin until he ate the fruit, and there Is no Biblical support for anything to the contrary.

If God told Eve not to touch the fruit, but then why were her eyes not opened until after Adam ate with her, after Adam directly disobeyed the only command recorded directly from God in the passage?  The serpent coaxed her into eating the fruit saying "in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods".   Satan knew touching the fruit was not enough to plunge her into sin or he would have just grabbed a piece, threw it at her, and nailed her with it.

She remained in deception until Adam ate with her.  Why?  I think some people are jumping to conclusions mistakenly when there are better questions and sounder doctrines in the passage than the implied meaning of "ye" when  Eve was answering the serpent. 

People who applaud the statement that there is no Biblical support for my position maybe need to read their Bible more.

I'm done here.

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I've often hear it preached (and I've preached it myself) that Eve twisted God's word by adding "neither should they touch" the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

My Bible states in Genesis 2:17 - "But as touching the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for whensoever thou eatest thereof, thou shalt die the death."

See, the text of the KJV is correct when Eve answered the serpent. :D

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“Adam was the first sinner”...

 

God spoke DIRECTLY to Adam...

NOT Eve...

 

Genesis 2

15 “And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.”

 

[  16 “And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat”;  

 

17 “But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, though shall not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” ]

 

18 “And the Lord God said, ‘It is not good that the man be alone: I will make him an help meet for him.”

 

19 “And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.”

 

20 “And Adam gave names to all cattle, and fowl of the air, and to every beast if the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.”

 

Ahhhhh...enter 21

 

21 “And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he [took one of his ribs], and closed up the flesh instead thereof;”

 

22 “And [the rib], which the Lord God had taken from man, [made he a woman, and brought her unto the man].”

 

23 “And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.”

 

Sooo when Our Lord God spoke DIRECTLY to Adam COMMANDING “he” not eat of the tree of good and evil...”Eve” was a mere “rib” at the time and the last time I knew a “rib had ears”...was like “never”...

 

God [never spoke directly to Eve]...had He done so, [His words would be in the Bible]...BUT they are not...

 

So the only way Eve knew about the tree is [through Adam][whatever] she spoke was ‘learned through Adam’...the added ‘neither shall ye touch it’ 

[doesn’t mean she lied]...it means that it was [her interpretation] through [Adam’s

message] from God.

 

And we know how the majority of men pass along messages...

(sorry...but it’s true...to pass along an urgent message one has to listen well)

 

Onto Genesis Chapter 3 

1 “NOW the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, ‘Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?”

 

2 “And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the garden:”

 

3 “But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it lest ye die.”

 

4 “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:”

 

5 “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”

 

6 “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat and

gave also unto her husband WITH HER; and HE DID EAT.

 

 

***There was no “lying” until AFTER [they] ate the fruit...lying is evil...EVIL did not enter the picture until AFTER the “sin”***

 

They did not know they were naked until [after] the sin...

 

Eve “didn’t bring Adam into it”, Adam was right next to Eve when THIS all went down...

 

Sooo Adam was right there when the serpent was beguiling Eve...and Adam said NOTHING...[NOTHING]

 

Adam [should] have chimed in with “NOPE...God commanded ME ‘NO’, we cannot do that”

 

Adam [DIDN’T] stand up to the serpent and reiterate God’s WORD for WORD command...

 

Adam [DIDN’T SAY A WORD IN PROTEST]...he just went along, even though God DIRECTLY spoke with him and COMMANDED Adam NOT to...

 

And what is the FIRST thing Adam does when God confronts him?!

 

Adam throws Eve under the bus...even though God spoke directly to Adam...when Eve was merely ‘a rib’...

 

...even though Eve was deceived first by the serpent, the primary responsibility for sin fell on Adam’s shoulders. 

 

God addressed Adam first, for the sin because He placed Adam ‘in charge’...

 

Romans 5:12-19

12 Wherefore, as by [one man sin]entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that [all have sinned]:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from [Adam]to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of [Adam's transgression], who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the [offence of one] many be dead, much more the grace of God, and [the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.]

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: [for the judgment was by one to condemnation], but the [free gift is of many offences] unto justification.

17 For if by [one man's offence] death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the [offence of one] judgment [came upon all men] to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by [one man's disobedience] many were made sinners, so by the [obedience of one shall many be made righteous.]

 

So congregations need to STOP preaching that “Eve twisted God’s word and lied” because THAT’S [an interpretation] of the Bible...[by Man]...NOT the word of God! It’s truly a [false statement] as lying is evil and again, EVIL did not enter the picture until AFTER the “sin”...

 

By continuing to preach this [human interpretation] is just ADDING to the [false teaching] of the Bible...that [continues today] to solely blame Eve...

 

Adam [initially] failed God and both Adam & Eve failed...and both were held accountable...

 

Adam also lied first...

 

The lie was [after] the sin...

 

When God asked Adam:

Genesis 3

11 “And he said, Who told thee that thou was naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?”

 

By those words, God gave Adam the opportunity to tell him the truth...but Adam lied...

 

Adam [ lied by omission ] by saying

12 “And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”

 

Adam’s response should have been:

“I was disobedient to your command God, I should have known the serpent was telling a story because his words didn’t match your direct command and I should have reiterated to Eve the dire importance of your command to not eat of the tree of good & evil, lest we die”

 

Then Eve [ lied by omission ]:

13 “And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.”

[Notice how God “did not” ask Eve, ‘Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?’ because God never spoke directly to Eve because she wasn’t even created at that point]

 

Eve’s response should have been:

“I was disobedient to Adam and did not heed your command, in which Adam passed along to me, of not eating of the tree of good & evil, lest we die.”

 

Adam was there when the serpent beguiled Eve...they were together

Genesis 2

25 “They were both naked, the man and his wife and were not ashamed.”

 

Genesis 3

6 “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto [ her husband with her ]; and he did eat.”

 

Adam was there and didn’t say a word...

 

That is why sin entered the world...Adam disobeyed a direct command that was between he and God.

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On 11/15/2019 at 12:03 AM, Silly Sunshine said:

“Adam was the first sinner”...

This is Biblically inaccurate.  When Eve ate of the fruit, she engaged in the first transgression against God's command.  As such, she is the first human sinner.  2 Timothy 2:14 declares, "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."  Eve DID eat of the forbidden fruit.  Eve DID commit sin against the Lord God by so eating.  Eve did eat of that fruit and thereby commit sin FIRST.

On the other hand, Eve was NOT the divinely appointed representative for the entire human race.  God had placed this appointment upon Adam as the first man. (See 1 Corinthians 15:45-47)  Thus Romans 5:12 indicates that by the sin of the one/first man Adam (not by the sin of Eve) sin entered the world of mankind, and death by that man's sin.  Indeed, it is "through the offense" of the one/first man Adam that "many be dead." (See Romans 5:15)  Indeed, "the judgment was by one [the first man Adam] to condemnation." (See Romans 5:16)  It is "by one man's offense" that "death reigned by one." (See Romans 5:17)  It is "by the offence of one" that "judgment came upon all men to condemnation." (See Romans 5:18)  It is "by one man's disobedience" that "many were made sinners." (See Romans 5:19)
 

On 11/15/2019 at 12:03 AM, Silly Sunshine said:

Sooo when Our Lord God spoke DIRECTLY to Adam COMMANDING “he” not eat of the tree of good and evil...”Eve” was a mere “rib” at the time and the last time I knew a “rib had ears”...was like “never”...

Indeed, when the Lord God presented his command unto Adam in Genesis 2:16-17, He spoke directly to Adam; and at that time Eve was not even yet created.  Even so, the Lord God employed singular pronouns in His command to Adam, saying, "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
 

On 11/15/2019 at 12:03 AM, Silly Sunshine said:

God [never spoke directly to Eve]...had He done so, [His words would be in the Bible]...BUT they are not...

First, there is NO Biblical principle which indicates that if God spoke directly to someone about any given matter, that His quotation about that matter MUST be recorded in Scripture.  That is a human conjecture, NOT a Biblical truth.

Second, Eve herself reported differently than your conclusion.  In Genesis 3:3 Eve delivered what she claimed to be a direct quote from the Lord God, saying, "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."  It should also be noticed that in her quotation from God, there are TWO significant differences in comparison to the direct command of the Lord God unto Adam as recorded in Genesis 2:16-17.  The first and most obvious difference is the addition, "Neither shall ye touch it."  The second significant difference is her usage of PLURAL pronouns -- "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."  These plural pronouns within her direct quotation from the Lord God indicate that the Lord God had INDEED spoken this command unto BOTH of them (as a "ye") after Eve was created.
 

On 11/15/2019 at 12:03 AM, Silly Sunshine said:

So the only way Eve knew about the tree is [through Adam][whatever] she spoke was ‘learned through Adam’...the added ‘neither shall ye touch it’ 

[doesn’t mean she lied]...it means that it was [her interpretation] through [Adam’s message] from God.

And we know how the majority of men pass along messages...

(sorry...but it’s true...to pass along an urgent message one has to listen well)

First, Eve herself NEVER stated that she learned this command "through Adam" as you claim, nor does any statement of Scripture ever indicate such.  This is simply human conjecture.

Second, Eve herself DID quote the Lord God as speaking His command to the "ye" (plural, as them both).

Third, your declaration concerning "how the majority of men pass along messages" (indicating the need to "listen well" and implying the failure of many men not to "listen well") applies a common failure of sinfully fallen men unto Adam, who at the time was yet in a sinless state.  Such an application is a faulty application.  The characteristics of sinful man CANNOT rightly be applied unto Adam before his first disobedience and sin in eating the fruit.  Before that sinful disobedience his characteristics were faultless, not faulty.

Fourth, your declaration concerning "how the majority of men pass along message" in itself even only encompasses "THE MAJORITY" of men.  It does not encompass ALL men ALL of the time.  Thus you are making an assumption about its application unto Adam for that given case without any Biblical evidence to do so.  Again this is human conjecture.
 

On 11/15/2019 at 12:03 AM, Silly Sunshine said:

6 “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat and gave also unto her husband WITH HER; and HE DID EAT.

***There was no “lying” until AFTER [they] ate the fruit...lying is evil...EVIL did not enter the picture until AFTER the “sin”***

They did not know they were naked until [after] the sin...

Eve “didn’t bring Adam into it”, Adam was right next to Eve when THIS all went down...

Sooo Adam was right there when the serpent was beguiling Eve...and Adam said NOTHING...[NOTHING]

Adam [should] have chimed in with “NOPE...God commanded ME ‘NO’, we cannot do that”

Adam [DIDN’T] stand up to the serpent and reiterate God’s WORD for WORD command...

Adam [DIDN’T SAY A WORD IN PROTEST]...he just went along, even though God DIRECTLY spoke with him and COMMANDED Adam NOT to...

Grammatically, Genesis 3:6 does NOT directly say that Adam was present with Eve throughout the serpent's temptation against her.  Yes, Genesis 3:6 does employ the phrase, "And gave also unto her husband with her."  However, from a grammatical perspective the prepositional phrase "with her" can carry two possible indications.  On the one hand, it could mean -- Who was PRESENT with her.  In this case the prepositional phrase would modify "her husband," indicating his location.  On the other hand, it could mean -- For him TO EAT with her.  In this case the prepositional phrase would modify "and gave," indicating her objective.  How might we choose between these options?

Well, IF Adam was present "with her" throughout the temptation (as you indicate above), then indeed "Adam said nothing," and did not "stand up to the serpent and reiterate God's Word for word command," and did not "say a word in protest."  Then indeed Adam "SHOULD HAVE chimed in with 'Nope . . . God commanded me NO, we cannot do that."  Yet IF Adam was present and SHOULD HAVE done something that he did not do, then THIS was his first sin.  Not doing something that one SHOULD do in the sight of God IS a sin.  YET God's Holy Word NEVER attributes such a sin to Adam, but ALWAYS indicates that his first sin was partaking of the fruit.  According to God's Holy Word, Adam's first sin was partaking of the forbidden fruit, NOT failing to be a good husband unto his wife.  As for myself, I will NOT accuse Adam of a sin that God's own Word does not accuse him of.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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