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No Nicolaitans

Eve's Transgression?

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First, let me apologize for keeping this short. I'll not be quoting any scripture because of time constraints at the moment, and I hope I can explain quickly what I was wondering about.

Second...I've been thinking...  :hide:    :nuts:

I've often hear it preached (and I've preached it myself) that Eve twisted God's word by adding "neither should they touch" the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Now, at the least, if God didn't say that, that would be lying...and therefore, it would have been a sin. Eve was deceived and in the transgression, but the Bible plainly states that sin entered because of Adam's sin.

We don't have every recorded word that God told them, so it is possible that God told them not to touch it also? Did Eve lie, or did her transgression happen only after all that the serpent told her?

Or, am I over-analyzing?

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  • I have always believed that God told either Adam, or Eve, or both... Not to eat of the tree or even to touch it.

Wherefore, by one man's disobedience sin entered.  One man.  The sin was not until Adam disobeyed.  Yes, Eve ate first.  However the eyes of both were opened after they had both ate.

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God told Adam in chapter 2 not to eat it.  In chapter 3 Eve says she was told not to touch it also.  Maybe Adam told his wife that he didn't even want her to touch it let alone eat it.  Anyway, how ever it went down, I still blame Adam.  When Eve ate she "gave also unto her husband with her" 3:6 it sounds like Adam was with Eve while the serpent was talking with her and Adam never should have allowed that. He was supposed to protect her.

edit:  thanks SFIC and Rosie, your replies were very thought provoking for me.  

 

Edited by robmac68

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As far as scripture tells us, and beyond is only speculation, we know that God told Adam not to eat of the tree. However, we know, since his job was to tend to the garden, it would have had to extend to this tree, hence he would have to touch it from time to time. From here, all we can assume is that God told Adam, Adam told Eve. Perhaps, as was said above, she was told to stay away from it and he would tend to it, so this is the word she got-her disobedience was to her husband-wrong but not a sin, while Adam, following her into it, sinned, being the one told directly by God, thus, HE sinned.

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Okay...what I'm getting at is this...

If (as is commonly taught) Eve twisted God's word, that would be a sin (lying). She did say that God said for them not to touch it. Even if Adam is the one who told her not to touch it, she still attributes that command as coming from God; therefore, I can only assume that if she heard it from Adam, he must have told her that the command came from God. However, if she was truthful, it wasn't lying or sin.

The Bible does say that she was deceived and in the transgression (violation).

If she lied by saying that God said something that he didn't say, then that puts sin before the fall (the eating of the fruit). As I read the account in Genesis 3, the serpent's actual deception didn't start until AFTER Eve said they shouldn't eat or touch the fruit.

Am I still over-analyzing?  :nuts:

Edited to add: by putting what I did in bold letters, I was just emphasizing...not yelling at anyone. ;)

Edited by No Nicolaitans

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Maybe this timeline will help with some analysis?

Gen 2:15 - God puts Adam in the Garden to dress it (serve in/labor) and keep it (keep/guard/observe)

Gen 2:17 - God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil

Gen 2:21-25 - God creates Eve

Gen 3:1 - The serpent asks if God told them not to eat of every tree

Gen 3:2-3 - Eve says they can eat of every tree except the one and adds the requirement not to touch

At this point, there are 3 possibilities (as mentioned by several people above):

  1. God reiterated and expounded on the command after Eve was created
  2. Adam passed on the command and added that Eve shouldn't touch it. Eve relayed the command as she heard it.
  3. God reiterated or Adam passed on the original command without addition. Eve added the requirement when talking to the serpent.

Gen 3:6 - Eve takes the fruit, eat is, and gives it to Adam who also eats it.

The verse suggests that Adam was there during the encounter and he did not correct her. It is also one long sentence that lists events but does not necessarily specify time order. the entire phrase "with her; and he did eat" is actually one Hebrew word. I suppose then, it is also possible that they ate simultaneously.

Anything we come up with is obviously speculation, but it stands to reason that Eve making up the new rule not to touch on the fly is unlikely given Adam's lack of intervention or correction. Therefore, either God added or Adam added it, which means Eve did not knowingly twist God's Word. That would put the responsibility back on Adam then wouldn't it?

 

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Well said Sword. You articulated my point better than I did. As far back as I can remember, I've never heard anyone teach or preach anything other than Eve twisted God's word and added to it. Which, after I thought about it...would put sin as happening before the Bible teaches that sin happened. I can't recall ever hearing anyone teach or preach that Eve didn't twist and add to God's word.

It's obvious from others in this thread that there are people who accept and believe the latter though.

I realize that it's still speculative to a point, but I think the Bible's "sin timeline" aids in giving credence to Eve not lying by twisting and adding to God's word.

 

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Unless you hold to the Gap theory, in which case, Satan's sin brought death, not Adam's, despite clear scripture to the contrary. Sorry, just stirring the pot a little.

:stirthepot: ooooh boy...:runforhills:

What? So you both deny the Gap? I can prove from God's word that the gap is true...

Ezekiel 22:30
And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.

 ;)

 

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What? So you both deny the Gap? I can prove from God's word that the gap is true...

Ezekiel 22:30
And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.

 ;)

 

:huh:  

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Just my "two cents."

I myself have never believed that Eve misrepresented God's Word on the matter.  If she had, then this falsehood would have been the first sin of humanity; and it would have been a sin of willful falsehood, not of deceived transgression (as 1 Timothy 2:14 reports concerning Eve's part "in the transgression").  

Now, the timeline of the creations, commandment, and temptation has been given already, as follows:

1.  The Lord God created Adam.
2.  The Lord God commanded Adam not to eat of the forbidden tree.
3.  The Lord God created Adam's wife, Eve.
4.  The Serpent, the Devil, tempted and deceived Eve.

However, I wish to bring forward a grammatical element in relation to this timeline, as follows:

1.  In Genesis 2:17 the Lord God delivered His commandment unto Adam, saying, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."  Herein the Lord God employed the pronoun "thou" three times.  This pronoun is a singular pronoun; therefore, in delivering this command the Lord God was only speaking to a single individual.  Even so, this would be appropriate in the context since Adam's wife Eve had not yet been created, such that the Lord God was indeed only speaking to Adam himself.  

2.  In Genesis 3:3 Eve delivered her report of the Lord God's command, saying, "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."  Herein Eve employed the pronoun "ye" three times.  This pronoun is a plural pronoun, indicating a command that was delivered by the Lord God Himself (as per the phrase, "God hath said") unto more than one person.  Since there is no indication within this context or within the Lord God's rebuke against Eve that she had falsely misrepresented God, and since there is no indication in 1 Timothy 2:13-15 that Eve had transgressed by speaking falsely, I would contend in accord with the plural pronouns that Eve employed that the Lord God reiterated His command unto Adam and Eve as a group sometime after Eve was created.  Furthermore, I would contend that Eve reported the Lord God's command with perfect accuracy.

Some thoughts to consider -- Did "the voice of the LORD God" regularly meet and walk with Adam and Eve "in the cool of the day"?  If He did, then there is a significant amount of communication between them that is not recorded in the Scriptures.  As such, is it likely that Eve was directly quoting out of that unrecorded communication?

Intriguing. I have to agree with your grammatical analysis. I also offer up that at this point Adam and Eve were married and were one flesh. Since the man is the head of the single body (1 Cor 11:3), it stands to reason Adam is the one ultimately responsible for the events that transpired.

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Just my "two cents."

I myself have never believed that Eve misrepresented God's Word on the matter.  If she had, then this falsehood would have been the first sin of humanity; and it would have been a sin of willful falsehood, not of deceived transgression (as 1 Timothy 2:14 reports concerning Eve's part "in the transgression").  

Now, the timeline of the creations, commandment, and temptation has been given already, as follows:

1.  The Lord God created Adam.
2.  The Lord God commanded Adam not to eat of the forbidden tree.
3.  The Lord God created Adam's wife, Eve.
4.  The Serpent, the Devil, tempted and deceived Eve.

However, I wish to bring forward a grammatical element in relation to this timeline, as follows:

1.  In Genesis 2:17 the Lord God delivered His commandment unto Adam, saying, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."  Herein the Lord God employed the pronoun "thou" three times.  This pronoun is a singular pronoun; therefore, in delivering this command the Lord God was only speaking to a single individual.  Even so, this would be appropriate in the context since Adam's wife Eve had not yet been created, such that the Lord God was indeed only speaking to Adam himself.  

2.  In Genesis 3:3 Eve delivered her report of the Lord God's command, saying, "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."  Herein Eve employed the pronoun "ye" three times.  This pronoun is a plural pronoun, indicating a command that was delivered by the Lord God Himself (as per the phrase, "God hath said") unto more than one person.  Since there is no indication within this context or within the Lord God's rebuke against Eve that she had falsely misrepresented God, and since there is no indication in 1 Timothy 2:13-15 that Eve had transgressed by speaking falsely, I would contend in accord with the plural pronouns that Eve employed that the Lord God reiterated His command unto Adam and Eve as a group sometime after Eve was created.  Furthermore, I would contend that Eve reported the Lord God's command with perfect accuracy.

Some thoughts to consider -- Did "the voice of the LORD God" regularly meet and walk with Adam and Eve "in the cool of the day"?  If He did, then there is a significant amount of communication between them that is not recorded in the Scriptures.  As such, is it likely that Eve was directly quoting out of that unrecorded communication?

Excellent!

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That's a lot of questions.  I always figured Eve disobeyed the command not to eat of the tree....she rebelled....deceived to do it, but she rebelled willfully.   Since nothing is said about exactly who told Eve whatever about eating of the tree, I always guessed that it was Adam who told her and maybe Adam embellished God's warning by saying "don't even touch it"  as if to say "don't even think about eating it."  There is nothing that indicates it was God who said not to touch the fruit, so I figured Adam added that in hope of keeping Eve in obedience in the matter.

Also, I would imagine God, Adam, and Eve talked volumes that are not recorded before the fall.  A few of those volumes would include the names of the animals given by Adam as God showed the creatures to Adam to see what Adam would call them.   Paul heard things when caught up to heaven that it is not lawful to speak, and I think that is the heavenly speech which we as sinners are not good enough to hear.  Maybe we'll get to hear them repeat it in heaven some day when there's no limit on time.

I suppose it's possible that God reiterated His command to Adam and Eve together, and added to that command that they were not to touch the fruit, but I think the part about touching was added by Adam or Eve, and it was not sin for them to add "do not touch"  because the addition would have been done in desire to strengthen their resolve to obey the command not to eat of the fruit....

Also, it was after they ate that there eyes were opened and they hid from God...not after they touched the fruit.  I think the part of touching the fruit was added by Adam and/or Eve.  God had not commanded them to refrain from adding verbal encouragements to his command to avoid falling to temptation, and that's all the "do not touch" addition was.

We as fallen sinners are directly commanded today to add nothing to or take nothing from God's word, but there was only one command recorded from God before the fall, not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

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There is a danger in claiming to know facts in things that are speculative and not directly revealed in God's word.  I would not contend to be certain that God commanded Adam and Eve together and told both of them not to touch the fruit after it is recorded that He told Adam not to eat of it and said nothing then about touching the fruit.  I think God permitted Adam to add "do not touch" to His command regarding the forbidden fruit.  Adam wanted Eve to leave that stuff alone, not even to touch it let alone eat it.  It probably would have scared Adam half to death if he looked over his shoulder and saw Eve touching the fruit.  I think Adam looked at Eve as he was touching the fruit, knowing she was as good as dead and he had lost her, and the only way to remain with her would be to join her in rebellion and try to hide from God.  I don't believe there was any command from God regarding touching the fruit.  Adam's eyes were opened after he ate, not after he touched.  He could have put that fruit away where every tiny piece of it would have remained forever and God would have made him a new wife...but the new one would have done the same thing I guess.  God made man in His own image, then rested.  After God made woman, nobody ever rested again.

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First, let me apologize for keeping this short. I'll not be quoting any scripture because of time constraints at the moment, and I hope I can explain quickly what I was wondering about.

Second...I've been thinking...  :hide:    :nuts:

I've often hear it preached (and I've preached it myself) that Eve twisted God's word by adding "neither should they touch" the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Now, at the least, if God didn't say that, that would be lying...and therefore, it would have been a sin. Eve was deceived and in the transgression, but the Bible plainly states that sin entered because of Adam's sin.

We don't have every recorded word that God told them, so it is possible that God told them not to touch it also? Did Eve lie, or did her transgression happen only after all that the serpent told her?

Or, am I over-analyzing?

I liked this because you asked if you are over-analyzing.  As long as you stay within the boundaries of the written word of God, you won't be over-analyzing.  I applaud you for asking good hard questions.  God wants us to know Him, and we won't know if we don't ask when we have questions.  I tend to analyze things much more than it's worth sometimes, but I still ask the hard questions when a concept in the Bible seems hard to grasp......there are a couple things I still wrestle with trying to analyze so I can feel I have a competent grip to communicate God's character when people raise questions about or against God, but I don't want to derail your thread with my questions and opinions  on those topics.

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I liked this because you asked if you are over-analyzing.  As long as you stay within the boundaries of the written word of God, you won't be over-analyzing.  I applaud you for asking good hard questions.  God wants us to know Him, and we won't know if we don't ask when we have questions.  I tend to analyze things much more than it's worth sometimes, but I still ask the hard questions when a concept in the Bible seems hard to grasp......there are a couple things I still wrestle with trying to analyze so I can feel I have a competent grip to communicate God's character when people raise questions about or against God, but I don't want to derail your thread with my questions and opinions  on those topics.

It won't bother me at all if you derail the thread...unless you feel the topic(s) of your questions deserve their own thread. I really don't mind, but it's up to you. 

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Whether Eve lied or not, she did technically sin first when she 'did eat' - which, whether she was deceived or not, was direct disobedience. Right? 

Plain and simple......and I don't think Eve lied, I think she repeated what Adam had told her, and he told her not to touch the fruit with all good intentions and there was no sin in Adam telling Eve not to touch it if he did tell her that, or maybe Eve thought Adam was saying God said not to touch it when it was only Adam saying don't touch it......or maybe Eve added it in all by herself, trying to bolster her resolve to obey God.  The sin was eating of the fruit.  If God had commanded them to not touch it, their eyes would have been opened and they would have known they were naked before Adam ate of the fruit.  Touching it would have been sin, and the first sin brought death.

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As far as scripture tells us, and beyond is only speculation, we know that God told Adam not to eat of the tree. However, we know, since his job was to tend to the garden, it would have had to extend to this tree, hence he would have to touch it from time to time. From here, all we can assume is that God told Adam, Adam told Eve. Perhaps, as was said above, she was told to stay away from it and he would tend to it, so this is the word she got-her disobedience was to her husband-wrong but not a sin, while Adam, following her into it, sinned, being the one told directly by God, thus, HE sinned.

There's a verse which says Eve was in the transgression before Adam...1 Timothy  2:14.... Eve sinned against God when she ate.  However, your idea of her transgression being against her husband rather than against God is intriguing since her eyes were not opened until after Adam ate with her.  Great....now you've done it, after I thought I didn't really have questions about the fall, now I have to add this one to the list of things I'm only beginning to understand.

I still think Eve sinned when she ate, and she was a good as dead from that point on.....but why were her eyes not opened in the matter until after Adam ate with her?

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Since nothing is said about exactly who told Eve whatever about eating of the tree, I always guessed that it was Adam who told her and maybe Adam embellished God's warning by saying "don't even touch it"  as if to say "don't even think about eating it."  There is nothing that indicates it was God who said not to touch the fruit, so I figured Adam added that in hope of keeping Eve in obedience in the matter.  (emboldening and underling added by Pastor Scott Markle)

First, Brother "Saintnow," I did not quote you in order to contend with you directly, but in order to present you as an example of a commonly held view.

Second, there actually is something said "about exactly who told Eve whatever about eating of the tree;" and there actually is something that says "it was God who said not to touch the fruit."  As recorded under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit in Genesis 3:3, Eve herself made the following claim, "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."  Eve did not give the report that Adam told her that God had said.  Eve did not give the report that God had said something to which Adam then added in giving to her.  Eve gave the report that God had said what she then quoted.  Now, either Eve spoke the truth in this statement; or she spoke a falsehood.  If she spoke the truth, then God Himself had said, "Ye [plural, which is different than the command statement in Genesis 2:17] shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it [which whole statement is different than the command statement in Genesis 2:17], lest ye die." 

I myself choose to believe that Eve was giving a truthful report.  Why?  First, because there is no indication anywhere in the context of Genesis 3 that Eve was speaking falsely when she gave this report.  Second, because if she was not giving a truthful report, then the first human sin was speaking a lie (not eating of the fruit).  Yet there is no indication anywhere in all of Scripture that Eve spoke falsely or that the first human sin was speaking falsely. 

____________________________________________________________

Brother "Saintnow,"

Now, with the remainder of my posting, I do wish to speak more directly to you.  You posted a second posting while I was yet in the midst of preparing that which I presented just above in this posting.  I desire to respond directly to that posting.

There is a danger in claiming to know facts in things that are speculative and not directly revealed in God's word. 

Indeed, there is a danger in doing so.  That is the reason that we should stay as close to that which is actually recorded in the Scriptures as we are able.  It is interesting that after you provided the above warning, then you yourself proceeded to engage in "things that are speculative and not directly revealed in God's Word," as follows:

I think God permitted Adam to add "do not touch" to His command regarding the forbidden fruit.  Adam wanted Eve to leave that stuff alone, not even to touch it let alone eat it.  It probably would have scared Adam half to death if he looked over his shoulder and saw Eve touching the fruit.  I think Adam looked at Eve as he was touching the fruit, knowing she was as good as dead and he had lost her, and the only way to remain with her would be to join her in rebellion and try to hide from God.  I don't believe there was any command from God regarding touching the fruit. 

Concerning the belief or lack of belief that "there was any command from God regarding touching the fruit," Eve herself did make the claim that God said it. 

I would not contend to be certain that God commanded Adam and Eve together and told both of them not to touch the fruit after it is recorded that He told Adam not to eat of it and said nothing then about touching the fruit.

I would rather contend that God did make such a command in accord with the record of God's Word concerning Eve's report to that very effect, than to completely conjecture concerning what Adam may have reported to Eve, when God's Word gives not a single word concerning any such communication on Adam's part to that effect.

God made man in His own image, then rested.  After God made woman, nobody ever rested again.

I pray that this set of statements was intended as a joke.  However, even as a joke these statements present a Biblical falsehood.  First, God did not rest after He mad the man.  Rather, after the Lord God made the man, then He gave the following report in Genesis 2:18 -- "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."  Second, God did not only created the man in His own image; for the report of Genesis 1:26 is -- "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them . . . ."  Again the report of Genesis 1:27 is -- "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."  Third, it is only after God made the woman as a wife and helper meet for the man that He declared all which He had created to be "very good" and that He proceeded to rest on the seventh day.  Fourth, it was the sin of the first man Adam, not the sin of the his wife, that was committed with willful, knowing rebellion (as opposed to deception) and that caused the entire universe and the entire human race to be plagued with corruption and continuing "unrest."

 

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Maybe this timeline will help with some analysis?

Gen 2:15 - God puts Adam in the Garden to dress it (serve in/labor) and keep it (keep/guard/observe)

Gen 2:17 - God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil

Gen 2:21-25 - God creates Eve

Gen 3:1 - The serpent asks if God told them not to eat of every tree

Gen 3:2-3 - Eve says they can eat of every tree except the one and adds the requirement not to touch

At this point, there are 3 possibilities (as mentioned by several people above):

  1. God reiterated and expounded on the command after Eve was created
  2. Adam passed on the command and added that Eve shouldn't touch it. Eve relayed the command as she heard it.
  3. God reiterated or Adam passed on the original command without addition. Eve added the requirement when talking to the serpent.

Gen 3:6 - Eve takes the fruit, eat is, and gives it to Adam who also eats it.

The verse suggests that Adam was there during the encounter and he did not correct her. It is also one long sentence that lists events but does not necessarily specify time order. the entire phrase "with her; and he did eat" is actually one Hebrew word. I suppose then, it is also possible that they ate simultaneously.

Anything we come up with is obviously speculation, but it stands to reason that Eve making up the new rule not to touch on the fly is unlikely given Adam's lack of intervention or correction. Therefore, either God added or Adam added it, which means Eve did not knowingly twist God's Word. That would put the responsibility back on Adam then wouldn't it?

 

I don't think God added it or Adam's eyes would have been opened in sin when he took the fruit from Eve before he ate it.

I also don't think it was sin no matter how "do not touch it" was added to God's command against eating the fruit.  I think that phrase was added by Adam or Eve intentionally or unintentionally out of their own self-preservation instinct or maybe from Adam's desire to protect his wife and there was no sin in adding the phrase. 

An entirely speculative and imaginative example:

Supposing Adam and Eve had been in the garden together five days after Eve was created.  The honeymoon was over and Adam decided he wanted to have some new kind of fun.  When Eve was smelling some roses, Adam snatched her sculpted pinecone hair brush and hid it (stole it).  Eve reached for her hair brush where she thought she left it, and asked Adam, "have you seen my hair brush"?   "No, my lovely little spare-rib" Adam replied (bore false witness against his neighbor who happened to be his wife).  So after about seven quadzillion years in paradise (the only possible time frame I might buy a "gap" theory, though I find it a totally unnecessary teaching)  Adam finally fesses up to Eve and gives her hair brush back.  Since the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil remained untouched during the expansive gap theory years, there was no sin, no harm done.  Even though Eve spent two thirds of seven quadzillion years looking for her hair brush and blaming herself for losing it...what was lost?  It's still paradise, unchanged, untarnished by sin.  If Adam lied and told Eve that God said not to touch the fruit of the  forbidden tree, there would be no sin involved.  If Adam killed Eve when she touched the fruit, that would be another story....but Adam was not a sinner before He ate of the forbidden fruit, so as sinless he never would have killed Eve even after she ate of the fruit.

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