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heartstrings

R. C. Sproul Jr.

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Generalize much? Faith comes by hearing......

 

Do you have Scriptural evidence for your "hunch"?

 

 

Certainly I generalize just as anyone who has been around a day or two does. The longer you live the more you realize everyone is 99% the same. Minor personality differences and minor appearance difference make up the remaining 1% IMO.

Jesus said He needs no one to testify of man because He knew what was in man. No one needs to hear your excuses for following your flesh into Calvinism. You did it for the same reasons everyone else did it; it makes your life a lukewarm, fleshly and easy existence.

You as with your lazy friends now never will pick up your cross, forsaking your pride and dignity and suffer reproach for Him. You talked yourselves out of it by lying to yourselves over Calvinism. You don't fool anyone guy. You certainly don't fool the Lord.

Now for your second fleshly question: Check out Ezekiel :

Eze 3:18, When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:19, Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Look friend, all false teachings originates in the flesh of man, calvin is among the worst of them. It turns what could have been a reproductive servant of God bearing much fruit into a useless theologian, full of intellectual pride. I am sure that rings a bell with several "intellectuals" on here

 

 

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Of course free willer's are saved. it is Jesus that saves, not that you a monergistic or synergistic belief. 

There is a false assumption that people who are monergistic do not evangelize. Google quotes from Calvin on the subject, you'll be surprised what he taught on the subject.

so, which Jesus is it that saves?  The one who died only for an elect few? or the one who died for even the one that denies Him?

 

they are not the same.

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in other words,.."I have no idea how Calvinism/Monergism/Covenant Theology works, I have never really studied it outside of what I have been told so I paint a broadbrush over people to erect strawmen arguments.

Again, where is your Scriptural support for your attendance in watching people to whom you should have witnessed to?

 

I dont know how I did that, but I was replying to wretched's comment. I wasnt putting words in his mouth or making it appear as he was saying something he wasnt

so, which Jesus is it that saves?  The one who died only for an elect few? or the one who died for even the one that denies Him?

 

they are not the same.

the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus who lays his life down for the sheep, not the goats.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44

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the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus who lays his life down for the sheep, not the goats.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44

and, which Jesus do you believe that to be?  The one that died that only the elect could be saved? or the one that died so that every human being would have the opportunity to receive Salvation?

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the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus who lays his life down for the sheep, not the goats.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44

Sure guy, sure. Whatever makes you feel better but mark these words because you will hear them again.

Have fun at satan's disposal down here.

Edited by wretched

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Seeing that God takes no pleasure in the wicked's demise; this is a very telling comment from you. I admitted my mistake,yet,you don't even see to show any compassion to excuse?

 Very telling. I hope sincerely I am miss reading you.

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Seeing that God takes no pleasure in the wicked's demise; this is a very telling comment from you. I admitted my mistake,yet,you don't even see to show any compassion to excuse?

 Very telling. I hope sincerely I am miss reading you.

Leonard, to put you in the picture: there are a number of folk on here, Hearstrings being one of them, who do not only believe that a person who holds to reformed teachings is mistaken. They also maintain that such a person is necessarily unsaved. So to them, talking to you (or any so-called 'Calvinist') is like talking to a hindu or a muslim or whatever.

SFIC goes a step further and holds that any person who is mistaken about anything in scripture is unsaved. He makes that point very clear in this thread.

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Leonard, to put you in the picture: there are a number of folk on here, Hearstrings being one of them, who do not only believe that a person who holds to reformed teachings is mistaken. They also maintain that such a person is necessarily unsaved. So to them, talking to you (or any so-called 'Calvinist') is like talking to a hindu or a muslim or whatever.

SFIC goes a step further and holds that any person who is mistaken about anything in scripture is unsaved. He makes that point very clear in this thread.

So these people are right and 2,000 years of teaching from then till now, everyone has been mistaken?That is just plain sad, that is behavior that doesn't reflect Christ. To be honest, that is reflective more of a cult-type personality.

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So these people are right and 2,000 years of teaching from then till now, everyone has been mistaken?That is just plain sad, that is behavior that doesn't reflect Christ. To be honest, that is reflective more of a cult-type personality.

No. More than just mistaken--that was my exact point. Simply holding that a belief contrary to one's own is mistaken is pretty much the definition of having a belief, isn't it? We all do that. After all, you yourself believe that all the Christians over the past 2,000 years who have been interpreting the verses you've just been arguing about differently to you have been mistaken, right? :)

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No. More than just mistaken--that was my exact point. Simply holding that a belief contrary to one's own is mistaken is pretty much the definition of having a belief, isn't it? We all do that. After all, you yourself believe that all the Christians over the past 2,000 years who have been interpreting the verses you've just been arguing about differently to you have been mistaken, right? :)

yes, you are correct. But I believe that Arminians are believers, though they are wrong how they came to their conclusions, I don't doubt or not break fellowship with them because of that. To hold otherwise is just plain ignorance.

i read that post you linked to, and my jaw dropped many times reading that. There seems to be no context to any historical orthodoxy. Where do people get this from?

 

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Sure guy, sure. Whatever makes you feel better but mark these words because you will hear them again.

Have fun at satan's disposal down here.

Hey, look at me, I am quoting myself now.

Just to be clear, my opposition to calvin worship is that it renders what could be a fruitful servant of God into a lukewarm and useless waste of God's Gift. Which it does and every person reading this knows it does but you quench the Spirit to continue lies about its "theology". One of Impy's better tricks on believers because it feeds the flesh. Satan has nothing to fear from a calvin worshipper.

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Leonard, to put you in the picture: there are a number of folk on here, Hearstrings being one of them, who do not only believe that a person who holds to reformed teachings is mistaken. They also maintain that such a person is necessarily unsaved. So to them, talking to you (or any so-called 'Calvinist') is like talking to a hindu or a muslim or whatever.

SFIC goes a step further and holds that any person who is mistaken about anything in scripture is unsaved. He makes that point very clear in this thread.

The basic Gospel is Christ Crucified with conviction coming by hearing the Word of God, and the power of the Holy Ghost dealing with a person's sin, God's righteousness and God's judgment. A person can get saved without knowing anything about Arminianism, Calvinism or any other ism. I had never heard of any of those things myself when I got saved.  But as you get in the Word and grow in knowledge, the Holy Spirit living inside you can let you know if something you hear isn't quite right.  We had a pastor who taught strange stuff like "Noah's son Ham was a homosexual" and "God cursed all black people to be slaves because of Ham" and "a baby gets his blood from his father and his body from his mother", "angels cohabited with women" and on I could go. But, thankfully, he was sound on the important things and not everything he taught was wrong. He did teach us that Arminianism and Calvinism are wrong. What if he had taught the other way, that God elected some for heaven and others for Hell? Or that one could lose their salvation? I would have rejected it just like I did the other wacky stuff mentioned above. I'm not going to say that every brother "sitting on the pew" who swallows everything he hears from the pulpit as truth, shrugs it off, and goes on about his daily life without a second thought, is not saved. But I do have a serious problem with those who have studied a serious false doctrine such as Calvinism, defend it as truth, and teach it to others. Methinks that person must not have the witness of the Holy Ghost and Jesus in his heart. Because, when I got saved, and was full of the love of God, I just believed that Jesus could save anybody and was willing to save everybody; and I found that is exactly what the King James Bible teaches.

Edited by heartstrings

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Hey, look at me, I am quoting myself now.

Just to be clear, my opposition to calvin worship is that it renders what could be a fruitful servant of God into a lukewarm and useless waste of God's Gift. Which it does and every person reading this knows it does but you quench the Spirit to continue lies about its "theology". One of Impy's better tricks on believers because it feeds the flesh. Satan has nothing to fear from a calvin worshipper.

please, elaborate how, and why. Please, because as of now you have shown nothing that you understand Monergism as a whole. Casting accusations as it makings Christians "lukewarm", how and why? What would cause that? Again if you Google John Calvin quotes in evangelism you can see what he said on the subject. 

The basic Gospel is Christ Crucified with conviction coming by hearing the Word of God, and the power of the Holy Ghost dealing with a person's sin, God's righteousness and God's judgment. A person can get saved without knowing anything about Arminianism, Calvinism or any other ism. I had never heard of any of those things myself when I got saved.  But as you get in the Word and grow in knowledge, the Holy Spirit living inside you can let you know if something you hear isn't quite right.  We had a pastor who taught strange stuff like "Noah's son Ham was a homosexual" and "God cursed all black people to be slaves because of Ham" and "a baby gets his blood from his father and his body from his mother", "angels cohabited with women" and on I could go. But, thankfully, he was sound on the important things and not everything he taught was wrong. He did teach us that Arminianism and Calvinism are wrong. What if he had taught the other way, that God elected some for heaven and others for Hell? Or that one could lose their salvation? I would have rejected it just like I did the other wacky stuff mentioned above. I'm not going to say that every brother "sitting on the pew" who swallows everything he hears from the pulpit as truth, shrugs it off, and goes on about his daily life without a second thought, is not saved. But I do have a serious problem with those who have studied a serious false doctrine such as Calvinism, defend it as truth, and teach it to others. Methinks that person must not have the witness of the Holy Ghost and Jesus in his heart. Because, when I got saved, and was full of the love of God, I just believed that Jesus could save anybody and was willing to save everybody; and I found that is exactly what the King James Bible teaches.

and I would say that Synergism is more heretical. Synergism puts man at the center of his salvation, God invites man and man make up his mind with God waiting for him.

rather than God predestined man from before the foundations of the world(Eph. 1:4). Choosing whom he wills. Not what system puts more glory, puts more forced on God?

According to Eph. 2 8-9 man can't boast if he was chosen. Whereas man can boast if he picked God.

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Please reread carefully my previous posts and be honest with yourself and God friend before it is too late and your life for Christ is a waste. This distortion of predestination and election has been the falling away of revival for many years now and even calvin's distortion has become far more distorted by his modern day followers.

Some ask on here why no revival, why no larger numbers of souls saved. They site everything but the real problem in those threads. The real problem is believers don't care to win the lost anymore and use this devilish concoction of calvin-ites to excuse themselves from doing it. Even those who don't believe it and stand their ground on Scripture want to believe it because it makes "living for God" so much easier.

It is never too late to lose your life in this world and start following Christ no matter how long you are been saved. Do you want to be dull in Heaven, pushing a broom or shine like the stars for ever and ever. Think about it, reject the devil and his ideas and pick up your cross.

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Please reread carefully my previous posts and be honest with yourself and God friend before it is too late and your life for Christ is a waste. This distortion of predestination and election has been the falling away of revival for many years now and even calvin's distortion has become far more distorted by his modern day followers.

Some ask on here why no revival, why no larger numbers of souls saved. They site everything but the real problem in those threads. The real problem is believers don't care to win the lost anymore and use this devilish concoction of calvin-ites to excuse themselves from doing it. Even those who don't believe it and stand their ground on Scripture want to believe it because it makes "living for God" so much easier.

It is never too late to lose your life in this world and start following Christ no matter how long you are been saved. Do you want to be dull in Heaven, pushing a broom or shine like the stars for ever and ever. Think about it, reject the devil and his ideas and pick up your cross.

here you go:  (btw, I'm still waiting for you to supply me that verse that's shows we will watch people burn that we didn't witness to)

If we have any humanity in us, seeing men going to perdition, …ought we not be moved by pity, to rescue the poor souls from hell, and teach them the way of salvation?

nothing could be more inconsistent with the nature of faith than that deadness which would lead a man to disregard his brethren, and to keep the light of knowledge choked up within his own breast.

there is no people and no rank in the world that is excluded from salvation; because God wishes that the gospel should be proclaimed to all without exception….[the Christian’s duty is] to be solicitous and to do our endeavor for the salvation of all whom God includes in his calling….[those people insult God] who, by their opinion, shut out any person from the hope of salvation.

 

 

 

 

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Agreed.

But there are those that don't preach the gospel.  A preacher that used to be our church moderator told me he went to a fraternal for Baptist ministers, and he said

"Brothers we need to get back to gospel preaching.  We have teaching in the morning, teaching in the evening and teaching in the midweek as well, but where is the gospel preaching?"

He said that split the meeting.

I recently had reason to speak to a visiting preacher.  (Visiting preachers are reminded that we are likely to have unbelievers present especially in the morning.)  I told him that he had spoken as if everyone present was saved.  He replied that he always did unless he was preaching an evangelical message,  I told him there were always likely to be unbelievers present and he should allow for that.  If I remember correctly he prayed that we all had the Holy Spirit.  He said you couldn't always qualify it, but I replied that he hadn't qualified it at all and you should always qualify it and that he had nothing for the unbeliever.

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Some of the great revivals were from the results of "Calvinists" spreading the Gospel, either personally or through the establishment of major missionary groups (beginning in England).

How many thousands came to Christ through men such as Whitefield, Spurgeon, Mueller, Edwards, Ryle, Newton, Lloyd-Jones, Matthew Henry, in their own lifetimes and in the many years since? That's only a handful.

I know they exist online, but I've not yet read works by a "Calvinist" or met a "Calvinist" who didn't believe in, support and practice the spreading of the Gospel.

Wesley, an "Arminian", worked with Whitefield, a "Calvinist", to the saving of thousands of lost souls.

Were all of these men 100% correct on their various beliefs? No, not at all, they were like the rest of us. Even so, they were used of the Lord to bring the lost to Christ just as He can use us to do the same.

Rice, Hyles, Roberson, Rogers, and countless others with some flawed beliefs who were also used of the Lord to saving of many lost souls.

George Mueller was not a "Calvinist" until he spent time in in-depth study of Scripture on the matter, with much prayer, and determined "Calvinism" was what the Bible teaches. Right or wrong on that matter, the fruit of his life bears out that he was saved, Holy Ghost filled and serving the Lord in many ways, including as an evangelist.

At this moment I currently know more Gospel sharing, soul winning "Calvinist" Baptists than I do of any other stripe of Baptists. Most non-Calvinist, non-IFB Baptists don't seem to be doing much in that area except for a few SBCs. Most IFBs in this area are clanish, and those who do have outreach programs they are narrow, limited, and regimented; most often conducted in a manner as if it's a forced duty rather than out of concern for the lost and the joy of seeing the lost come to Christ.

No doubt, we could all do better regardless of our various positions in certain areas.

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Agreed John

But  Wesley and Whitfield did separate over that matter although they were later reconciled.

Yes, that point was a matter of contention between them but they managed to serve the Lord together rather well. Some "Calvinists" were upset when Whitefield chose to leave the ministry in Wesley's hands at the end rather than to appoint a "Calvinist" successor.

I've known a few "Calvinist" Baptists and non-Calvinist Baptists who have worked together in soul winning and some street preaching. Focusing upon sharing the Gospel with the intent of seeing lost souls born again in Christ, they do well.

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I do have a serious problem with those who have studied a serious false doctrine such as Calvinism, defend it as truth, and teach it to others. Methinks that person must not have the witness of the Holy Ghost and Jesus in his heart. Because, when I got saved, and was full of the love of God, I just believed that Jesus could save anybody and was willing to save everybody; and I found that is exactly what the King James Bible teaches.

Ok, well in my opinion this is where we go from scriptural basis to 'secret knowledge between the Holy Spirit and me' kind of thinking. You just pointed out that the Bible says God is willing to save everyone--fine (and for the record that's what I believe too), but what you didn't just do is show or point to a scriptural explanation for why someone who doesn't think God is willing to save everyone must themselves be unsaved (as opposed to saved but wrong).

For example, I can provide scripture to show why someone is unsaved if they don't believe Jesus Christ is real or they believe He wasn't crucified--that's what I mean by a scriptural explanation (and I won't quote the scriptures since I assume you agree). Do you have scripture, or an argument from scripture, that shows why someone who doesn't think God wishes to save everyone must themselves be unsaved?

Otherwise it seems to me that you're in danger of saying that you believe 'X' because the Holy Spirit convicted you, therefore if someone else's experience doesn't match yours they must not have the Holy Spirit (i.e. not saved). Such an argument would depart from Sola Scriptura, don't you think?

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Ok, well in my opinion this is where we go from scriptural basis to 'secret knowledge between the Holy Spirit and me' kind of thinking. You just pointed out that the Bible says God is willing to save everyone--fine (and for the record that's what I believe too), but what you didn't just do is show or point to a scriptural explanation for why someone who doesn't think God is willing to save everyone must themselves be unsaved (as opposed to saved but wrong).

For example, I can provide scripture to show why someone is unsaved if they don't believe Jesus Christ is real or they believe He wasn't crucified--that's what I mean by a scriptural explanation (and I won't quote the scriptures since I assume you agree). Do you have scripture, or an argument from scripture, that shows why someone who doesn't think God wishes to save everyone must themselves be unsaved?

 

Did I say someone who merely "thinks"?

But I do have a serious problem with those who have studied a serious false doctrine such as Calvinism, defend it as truth, and teach it to others.

Here are some verses......

2 Corinthians 11: 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed

To the "monergists", "reformed", "Calvinists, or whatever you want to be called: The real Jesus loved the world, loved His enemies, died for the world, tasted death for every man, and by his own righteousness offered the free gift of salvation to all men. If the Jesus you teach to others, didn't do that, then you have the wrong one.  I would seriously recommend checking up on your Jesus.

 

 

 

Edited by heartstrings

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