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Baptists that came out of the Reformation


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I don't know about "Particular Baptist redemption", and really don't care to learn about it.  I am redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of God.   I read enough of the 1600 Confessions to just about puke from the mind numbing twists of reasoning and acrobatic leaps of logic used to draw Calvinistic support conclusions.  The only Baptist I am particular about is John the Baptist and since Jesus was Baptized by John and in the great commission taught His disciples to perform the same baptism on all who repent and believe the gospel, it seems the simple logical conclusion is that Jesus was a Baptist like John the Baptist.  That's the only kind of Baptist I will follow.  You can keep your 1600 Confessions on a pedestal until the Lord comes back and nothing but His word is held as the standard of faith.

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Saintnow,

Thank you for your stand on the historical history of true Baptists.

If the brethren could read their Bible correctly they just might realize that John baptized the Lord Jesus as commanded by God Himself and the word Baptist is a title; it is not John's last name.

Also, "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection." John 1:22 the early disciples were Baptist (baptizers) following the teachings of John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, thank  you for your stand for the scriptural teaching of the history of the Baptists.  I commend you for your standing up for the true faith in the midst of the verbal antics or others, miss-application of history, and the mistaken notion that the Baptist faith started after the Reformation.

Alan

Edited by Alan
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I don't quite understand why people seem to think the John the Baptist was the first Baptist. Yes, he baptized. But it was before the cross. He died as an Old Testament believer - still looking forward to the finished work of Christ on the cross. That puts him in an entirely different dispensation than us as New Testament believers. 

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I don't know about "Particular Baptist redemption", and really don't care to learn about it.  I am redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of God.   I read enough of the 1600 Confessions to just about puke from the mind numbing twists of reasoning and acrobatic leaps of logic used to draw Calvinistic support conclusions.  The only Baptist I am particular about is John the Baptist and since Jesus was Baptized by John and in the great commission taught His disciples to perform the same baptism on all who repent and believe the gospel, it seems the simple logical conclusion is that Jesus was a Baptist like John the Baptist.  That's the only kind of Baptist I will follow.  You can keep your 1600 Confessions on a pedestal until the Lord comes back and nothing but His word is held as the standard of faith.

John the Baptist was not a christian.  He was an OT prophet and, and the greatest OT prophet.  But all who is the least in he Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.  

Luke 7:28  For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

 

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I don't know about "Particular Baptist redemption", and really don't care to learn about it.  I am redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of God.   I read enough of the 1600 Confessions to just about puke from the mind numbing twists of reasoning and acrobatic leaps of logic used to draw Calvinistic support conclusions.  The only Baptist I am particular about is John the Baptist and since Jesus was Baptized by John and in the great commission taught His disciples to perform the same baptism on all who repent and believe the gospel, it seems the simple logical conclusion is that Jesus was a Baptist like John the Baptist.  That's the only kind of Baptist I will follow.  You can keep your 1600 Confessions on a pedestal until the Lord comes back and nothing but His word is held as the standard of faith.

So scripture teaching make you puke.  That tells it all from those who twist the scripture to suit their own ideas.

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Yeah this is one thing that annoys me a bit.  It's the revering of the 'Reformed theology'.

This has a strong vein of calvinism running through it.  Also embraces the idea of a universal church, which goes against teaching as the body of Christ being a local body or figurative for all local bodies.

The other thing that annoys me, is the 'either you are a reformer or a catholic'

This ignores history of real churches that never called themselves either, but were distinctly bible believing.

So yeah.. I guess the NZ baptist churches would adhere to that 1689 confession.. atho also adding following of spiritual gifts of ministry and sign gifts.

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Yeah this is one thing that annoys me a bit.  It's the revering of the 'Reformed theology'.

This has a strong vein of calvinism running through it.  Also embraces the idea of a universal church, which goes against teaching as the body of Christ being a local body or figurative for all local bodies.

The other thing that annoys me, is the 'either you are a reformer or a catholic'

This ignores history of real churches that never called themselves either, but were distinctly bible believing.

So yeah.. I guess the NZ baptist churches would adhere to that 1689 confession.. atho also adding following of spiritual gifts of ministry and sign gifts.

Not worthy of a reply

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Not worthy of a reply

Invicta, are you fully aware of what independent, fundamental baptist churches believe?

One of the particulars.. is rejection of calvinism.

The reason for this? Because they take their teaching about eternal salvation, pre-destination straight from the bible, and not from the traditions of men.

Calvin did attempt to go back to the bible.. but never seperated himself fully from Roman Catholicism.

Calvinist type teaching about salvation is that a saved person WILL do good works.. and that repentance is a continuing,improving in holiness type commitment.  That goes against eternal salvation being a free gift, not by works. 

The roman catholics work to gain eternal life.. the calvinist says they are saved by grace, but they HAVE to be continually repenting otherwise they were never saved in the first place!

Same thing.. put in different ways.  Subtle.. but still another gospel.

Repentance..for saving faith.. is not a commitment to turn from sin continually.. it is the acknowledgement that you are a dirty rotten sinner, and cannot save yourself.. it is a 'change of mind'.. not a change of turning from bad sin continually.

The changing.. to turn from bad sin continually is something that happens by choice.. AFTER someone has been given eternal life!

There is fruit from being saved.. the result of the Holy Spirit indwelling someone when they have been given eternal life. But this isn't necessarily visible works!

 

This is a big thing now .. is the teaching of Lordship salvation.  That salvation is a continual turning from sin.. rather than an acknowledgement that you are a dirty rotten sinner and need Jesus to save you.

Independent baptist distinctives: (as far as I know)

* The body of Christ is not universal, but a local body. A New Testament assembly of saved, baptised believers, covenanted to carry out the great commandment and commission.

*Every believer is in the Family of God.. but is not the body of Christ

*Re-baptism of people who were baptised by sprinkling or as an infant.. or in a wayward church.

*Baptism by full immersion of saved people only. No infant baptism, no sprinkling.  This is also a pre-requisite to become a member of a church. (Local body)

*The Lord's Supper for members of the local body of believers rather than all believers.  (Closed communion)

*Rejection of calvinism..   salvation by grace thru faith in Jesus Christ.. that is eternally secure

*Belief in faith hope and love as the remaining abiding gifts of the Holy Spirit. Sign and ministry gifts..ceasing with death of the apostles and completion of the canon.

*Local church only governance

*pre-millenial return of Christ

*The one Triune God

*follow tithing for the local body

Maybe Invicta-- you aren't independent fundamental baptist.. but that is what this forum is about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Invicta, are you fully aware of what independent, fundamental baptist churches believe?

One of the particulars.. is rejection of calvinism.

The reason for this? Because they take their teaching about eternal salvation, pre-destination straight from the bible, and not from the traditions of men.

Calvin did attempt to go back to the bible.. but never seperated himself fully from Roman Catholicism.

Calvinist type teaching about salvation is that a saved person WILL do good works.. and that repentance is a continuing,improving in holiness type commitment.  That goes against eternal salvation being a free gift, not by works. 

The roman catholics work to gain eternal life.. the calvinist says they are saved by grace, but they HAVE to be continually repenting otherwise they were never saved in the first place!

Same thing.. put in different ways.  Subtle.. but still another gospel.

Repentance..for saving faith.. is not a commitment to turn from sin continually.. it is the acknowledgement that you are a dirty rotten sinner, and cannot save yourself.. it is a 'change of mind'.. not a change of turning from bad sin continually.

The changing.. to turn from bad sin continually is something that happens by choice.. AFTER someone has been given eternal life!

There is fruit from being saved.. the result of the Holy Spirit indwelling someone when they have been given eternal life. But this isn't necessarily visible works!

 

This is a big thing now .. is the teaching of Lordship salvation.  That salvation is a continual turning from sin.. rather than an acknowledgement that you are a dirty rotten sinner and need Jesus to save you.

Independent baptist distinctives: (as far as I know)

* The body of Christ is not universal, but a local body. A New Testament assembly of saved, baptised believers, covenanted to carry out the great commandment and commission.

*Every believer is in the Family of God.. but is not the body of Christ

*Re-baptism of people who were baptised by sprinkling or as an infant.. or in a wayward church.

*Baptism by full immersion of saved people only. No infant baptism, no sprinkling.  This is also a pre-requisite to become a member of a church. (Local body)

*The Lord's Supper for members of the local body of believers rather than all believers.  (Closed communion)

*Rejection of calvinism..   salvation by grace thru faith in Jesus Christ.. that is eternally secure

*Belief in faith hope and love as the remaining abiding gifts of the Holy Spirit. Sign and ministry gifts..ceasing with death of the apostles and completion of the canon.

*Local church only governance

*pre-millenial return of Christ

*The one Triune God

*follow tithing for the local body

Maybe Invicta-- you aren't independent fundamental baptist.. but that is what this forum is about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks.  As I have said many times, I am not a Calvinist.  I get my teachings from the bible not from Man.

I am a Baptist, I am independent and I am a fundamentalist.  But I agree with you I do not belong to the IFB denomination.

I joined this site as it labelled Online Baptist.  As I am a Baptist, I qualify.

Thanks for your concern.

David

 

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those 1689 Confession framers deserve credit for standing up against Catholicism, but the Calvinistic oppression of John Calvin ruling Geneva and making the Calvinistic Geneva footnoted Bible and forcing everybody in Geneva to toe his line to keep a fortress protecting themselves for Catholic persecution was not Baptist.  I believe Calvin would have set Jesus up to be Crucified just like the Pharisees did.

I have used his "Calvinistic...footnoted Bible" for 15 years. I am not a Calvinist, and what you said is a lie. It is not Calvinistic. And that is the plain and simple facts that I have studied for 15 years. And since you haven't, you have no idea what you are talking about, and use senseless 'arguments' claiming non-truths.

I thought you were tired of the OB forum. You obviously think we are useless in our discussions, and implied we are below your level of understanding the scriptures.

His 'Bible' was spread all over the European continent and was the most widespread Bible in use between 1560 and 1644, and was the Bible used in the home of most Christians. Calvin pressured nobody. He died in 1564!

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I have used his "Calvinistic...footnoted Bible" for 15 years. I am not a Calvinist, and what you said is a lie. It is not Calvinistic. And that is the plain and simple facts that I have studied for 15 years. And since you haven't, you have no idea what you are talking about, and use senseless 'arguments' claiming non-truths.

I thought you were tired of the OB forum. You obviously think we are useless in our discussions, and implied we are below your level of understanding the scriptures.

His 'Bible' was spread all over the European continent and was the most widespread Bible in use between 1560 and 1644, and was the Bible used in the home of most Christians. Calvin pressured nobody. He died in 1564!

Actually, the bible that Calvin was involved with was the Olivetan, the first bible translated into French in 1535, from the "Texte Reçu" the Received Text.  Jean Calvin wrote the preface.  This was later revised by Ostervald, and more recently in 1966 by American Baptists, Mission Baptiste Maranatha, and printed by Bearing Precious Seed, Milford Ohio, 45150.  

The preface to the 1996 edition says (my rough translation)  Traversing the centuries since 1535, the French speakers possessed faithful Bible. This traditional bible is the true representation of that which our brothers have used throughout the ages. This is the issue from the Texte Reçu which is the faithful representation of the original texts and conforms with the immense majority of the Manuscripts in existence. From its publication in 1535 it has been the bible of the Vaudois, (Evangelical Christians of the Alps) also of the reformers, Calvin, Farel and Théodore de Bèze.  Its fruit has been conversions on a grand scale and also the spirit of sacrifice and revival. In 1560 it was called the Bible of Geneva. Up to the beginning of the the 20th Century it has been perpetuated by the revisions of Ostervald.  During that time, nothing has been taken out of the Bible. It is preferable to utilize the tradition bible that is the heritage of texts used by God through the centuries, those who are vehicles of the blessings of the greatest revivals of the faith.

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Actually, the bible that Calvin was involved with was the Olivetan, the first bible translated into French in 1535, from the "Texte Reçu" the Received Text.  Jean Calvin wrote the preface.  This was later revised by Ostervald, and more recently in 1966 by American Baptists, Mission Baptiste Maranatha, and printed by Bearing Precious Seed, Milford Ohio, 45150.  

The preface to the 1996 edition says (my rough translation)  Traversing the centuries since 1535, the French speakers possessed faithful Bible. This traditional bible is the true representation of that which our brothers have used throughout the ages. This is the issue from the Texte Reçu which is the faithful representation of the original texts and conforms with the immense majority of the Manuscripts in existence. From its publication in 1535 it has been the bible of the Vaudois, (Evangelical Christians of the Alps) also of the reformers, Calvin, Farel and Théodore de Bèze.  Its fruit has been conversions on a grand scale and also the spirit of sacrifice and revival. In 1560 it was called the Bible of Geneva. Up to the beginning of the the 20th Century it has been perpetuated by the revisions of Ostervald.  During that time, nothing has been taken out of the Bible. It is preferable to utilize the tradition bible that is the heritage of texts used by God through the centuries, those who are vehicles of the blessings of the greatest revivals of the faith.

Great point Invicta. I know, as I have read some say, that Calvin wrote the preface to the English1557 NT. Other than that, I know of no real reference to facts that Calvin had any personal involvement in translating the English Bible we know as the Geneva Bible of 1560. He may have, but I have not found any info to support that. I have read some on the Olivetan French Bible, but not much. I know that multitudes of people are in Heaven right now because of the preaching of the gospel from men who were aloud to have their own Bible in their hands because of these godly men. Before the KJB even. God is merciful.

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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Invicta, are you fully aware of what independent, fundamental baptist churches believe?

One of the particulars.. is rejection of calvinism.  So you are not independent then.

The reason for this? Because they take their teaching about eternal salvation, pre-destination straight from the bible, and not from the traditions of men. So do I

Calvin did attempt to go back to the bible.. but never separated himself fully from Roman Catholicism.  Of course he did, if the Romans caught him, he would have been one of the martyrs.

Calvinist type teaching about salvation is that a saved person WILL do good works.. and that repentance is a continuing,improving in holiness type commitment.  That goes against eternal salvation being a free gift, not by works.  No it is not. They teach that we do good works because we are saved.  Holiness is something that comes gradually, nothing to do with repentance. Holiness comes through following close to Christ

The roman catholics work to gain eternal life.. the calvinist says they are saved by grace, but they HAVE to be continually repenting otherwise they were never saved in the first place!  Nonesense.  Whoever taught you that or did you invent it yourself. ?

Same thing.. put in different ways.  Subtle.. but still another gospel.

Repentance..for saving faith.. is not a commitment to turn from sin continually.. it is the acknowledgement that you are a dirty rotten sinner, I have read letters to and from a Calvinistic Baptist church from 1843 to 1847 and one thing that comes across is their continual sense of their sin, and often refer to themselves as worms, and the despised few. One thing I noticed from reading about Luther was that before he was save he was immensely aware of his sin.  Passing a statue of Christ on his way to the church, he cringed because he knew he was a dirty wrotten sinner as you put it. So aware was he of his sin he went to confession many times a day, and the priest locked the church door when he saw Luther coming.   and cannot save yourself.. it is a 'change of mind'.. not a change of turning from bad sin continually. Something else you invented?

The changing.. to turn from bad sin continually is something that happens by choice.. AFTER someone has been given eternal life!

There is fruit from being saved.. the result of the Holy Spirit indwelling someone when they have been given eternal life. But this isn't necessarily visible works!

 

This is a big thing now .. is the teaching of Lordship salvation.  That salvation is a continual turning from sin.. rather than an acknowledgement that you are a dirty rotten sinner and need Jesus to save you.  I have never known anyone who taught Lordship salvation except charismatics.

Independent baptist distinctives: (as far as I know)

* The body of Christ is not universal, but a local body. A New Testament assembly of saved, baptised believers, covenanted to carry out the great commandment and commission.

*Every believer is in the Family of God.. but is not the body of Christ 

*Re-baptism of people who were baptised by sprinkling or as an infant.. or in a wayward church.

*Baptism by full immersion of saved people only. No infant baptism, no sprinkling.  This is also a pre-requisite to become a member of a church. (Local body)

*The Lord's Supper for members of the local body of believers rather than all believers.  (Closed communion)

*Rejection of calvinism..   salvation by grace thru faith in Jesus Christ.. that is eternally secure That is what we believe

*Belief in faith hope and love as the remaining abiding gifts of the Holy Spirit. Sign and ministry gifts..ceasing with death of the apostles and completion of the canon. Agreed

*Local church only governance Agreed

*pre-millenial return of Christ

*The one Triune God I Believe that, but then so do Roman Catholics

*follow tithing for the local body  Where do you find that in the scripture?

Maybe Invicta-- you aren't independent fundamental baptist.. but that is what this forum is about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Invicta
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