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Baptists that came out of the Reformation


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Greetings! I am new here.. but thought I'd start a thread :)

 

Here in New Zealand, when you say you are baptist..  it barely ever means you are independent baptist.  The Baptist Church of New Zealand is what I would call 'Bapti-costal' or 'Charis-baptist'

They will immerse believers only and only by full immersion, and supposedly believe in sola scriptura and most will believe in a young earth.. but that is about where the similarities end.

These baptist came out of the reformation.. although I am not sure  from what group.  Did they see real baptist churches and try and make themselves similar?

Anyway.. I was wondering what the experience you guys have had of these kind of baptists.  The origin for the NZ ones is from the Baptist Union in the United Kingdom.

In New Zealand.. IFB churches are rare as needles in haystacks.  You are lucky to get more than 2 or 3 in a whole city.

 

 

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Aussie baptist Union is similar in considering themselves protestant, and are pretty much soft and liberal.

Charismaniac influence is creeping in all over the place over here.

We found NZ to be far more "religious" than Aus, with seemingly most people having a "Christian" heritage, but had a hard time finding a church to go to for the Sunday we were there. Found one in Nelson (I think), but only after we missed the service......

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There are so many different varieties of Baptist churches in America it would be hard to list them all. Depending upon what part of the country a person is in depends upon what sort of church people think of when they hear the name "Baptist".

IFBs are few, and some of them have or are going a bad direction, but thankfully there are still many good ones left scattered around the country.

There are also very liberal Baptist churches, Seventh Day Baptists, Charismatic Baptists, Southern Baptists, Reformed Baptists, etc.

The only way to really know what any particular Baptist church holds to and preaches is to check them out.

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Aussie baptist Union is similar in considering themselves protestant, and are pretty much soft and liberal.

Charismaniac influence is creeping in all over the place over here.

We found NZ to be far more "religious" than Aus, with seemingly most people having a "Christian" heritage, but had a hard time finding a church to go to for the Sunday we were there. Found one in Nelson (I think), but only after we missed the service......

​Yeah it's the way of it.

Here in Christchurch.. you look in a directory.. 'oh look at that.. a baptist church just round corner!' ... then go there.. and 'oh.. they believe you can lose your salvation... oh.. they practice all the gifts'.. oh .. they believe in a universal church'...  so you look again..  

- 'oh look at that.. baptist church in the next suburb!'  .. then go there.. and 'oh same again.. believe you can lose your salvation.. practice all the gifts " etc etc....

Here in New Zealand.. the Anglican, Church of England denomination is the most popular.  And like you say .. a whole chunk of the population will actually tick 'christian' in the religion box..  but then the ones that are actually saved people following Jesus.. is a far far less percentage.

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That was my impression, and talking to expats over here (Son plays rugby, most of his team are Maori) tells the same story.

Aussies are obviously more honest about it - they don't even pretend to care about God............. :unsure:

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The UK Baptist Union is not a Reformation church group. They were in the forefront of the free churches departure from the faith in the 19th century. One church I know has the distinction of being the first Baptist church to welcome an RC bishop as guest preacher. 

The 1689 Baptist Confession is a Reformed statement of faith, and I think few churches holding to that confession would be charismatic. 

Two or three in a city sounds good! Encourage them. 

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Greetings! I am new here.. but thought I'd start a thread :)

 

Here in New Zealand, when you say you are baptist..  it barely ever means you are independent baptist.  The Baptist Church of New Zealand is what I would call 'Bapti-costal' or 'Charis-baptist'

They will immerse believers only and only by full immersion, and supposedly believe in sola scriptura and most will believe in a young earth.. but that is about where the similarities end.

These baptist came out of the reformation.. although I am not sure  from what group.  Did they see real baptist churches and try and make themselves similar?

Anyway.. I was wondering what the experience you guys have had of these kind of baptists.  The origin for the NZ ones is from the Baptist Union in the United Kingdom.

In New Zealand.. IFB churches are rare as needles in haystacks.  You are lucky to get more than 2 or 3 in a whole city.

 

 

​As Covenanter said, 2 or 3 in a city is actually quite wonderful.  There are some countries that barely have 2 or 3 good IFB missionaries.

 

Churches:

http://www.wayoflife.org/directory/newzealand.html

 

Edited by DennisD
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A lot of people in evangelical and mainstream Baptist churches have a limited knowledge of history and think that everyone who isn't Catholic is Protestant. Are the churches you are referring to be the same kind of people? As far as I know, Baptists did not originate with the Reformation. (Although I suppose you could have had groups which saw the truth and came out of Reformation churches to start a more Baptistic fellowship.)

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A lot of people in evangelical and mainstream Baptist churches have a limited knowledge of history and think that everyone who isn't Catholic is Protestant. Are the churches you are referring to be the same kind of people? As far as I know, Baptists did not originate with the Reformation. (Although I suppose you could have had groups which saw the truth and came out of Reformation churches to start a more Baptistic fellowship.)

​There were many independent baptist (small 'b') churches before & after the Reformation. These were persecuted as "Anabaptists" as to re-baptise those baptised in infancy was seen as sedition against the state church & the state that authorised whichever church the rulers supported. 

A popular treatment is in the book "Trail of Blood" & a more scholarly treatment in "The Reformers & Their Stepchildren." A review of the Stepchildren book can be read on line.

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Although I suppose you could have had groups which saw the truth and came out of Reformation churches to start a more Baptistic fellowship.

​The few Baptist churches I've encountered where I've also looked at what they say about their own history have all traced themselves back to dissenters. At the end of the day, if history shows lots of churches calling themselves Baptist appearing in the UK at the same time as the reformation, doesn't it follow that either the majority of those must have been filled with ex-Catholics and ex-CofE or else the existing Baptists must have starting breeding like rabbits?

In any case, the last time we had a thread on this, the consensus view was that if a group of new believers came out of a false church and tried to form their own church, it would be illegitimate because it hadn't been planted by a true church. If this is true, then it may be that >90% of churches that call themselves Baptist in the UK are illegitimate, including the ones that have their teaching right.

 

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In any case, the last time we had a thread on this, the consensus view was that if a group of new believers came out of a false church and tried to form their own church, it would be illegitimate because it hadn't been planted by a true church. If this is true, then it may be that >90% of churches that call themselves Baptist in the UK are illegitimate, including the ones that have their teaching right.

That was really the consensus? Wow. That's off. Having believers come out of false churches and start a true church is exactly what we should like to see happen. I mean, hey - even the Reformers had the right idea - they just didn't come out far enough and left in a lot of bad doctrine.  A church is not legitimized because it can trace its lineage back to 30 AD (as if any could), it is legitimized by its faith in the One Who is the cornerstone and head of the church and in His Word.

Maybe this thread needs to clarify its definition of 'coming out of the Reformation'. There were Baptistic congregations before the Reformation, and surely many started after, some perhaps because of the Reformation. That would have been a time of increased Bible searching, of doubt in established belief systems, and of decreasing Catholic influence (i.e. control). Surely this would have been fertile ground for the Truth to spread.   To my mind, though, Baptists are not counted as Protestants because there was no formal organization of them that began at the time of Reformation.

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Here's the discussion--see Jim Alaska's posts in particular. A church being legitimite by virtue of it having been planted, or at least authorised, by an existing Baptist church and therefore being part of a lineal progression back to 30AD, whether a given church can show it or not, was exactly the claim being made. And quite a few folk agreed--maybe I was hasty to say it was a consensus. :-)

Not trying to rehash that thread but it seems pertinent to this discussion...

Edited by Alimantado
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