Determinism

[Genevanpreacher]

I believe we all have 'free will' but I also believe the scriptures teach that the Lord does know before-hand what everyone will do.

Just because he knows the beginning from the end, and the end from the beginning.

Was God surprised when Adam and Eve disobeyed him and ate from the tree he told them not to eat of?

No.

Neither did he 'make' them choose to disobey.

God has chosen the things that he foreknew would happen, and uses them for his purpose in our lives, and also brings glory to him.

He's great that way. 

​God knows before things happen, what are gonna happen, and he uses those situations sometimes to work his will in all peoples lives, without predetermining anything. And in his 'using' those situations he also gets glory in our lives from him using our 'decisions' that we make, even though some we make are pretty dumb and selfish.

Maybe that clears it up? 

I am not a 'Calvinist' neither do I claim 'Calvinism' is all wrong.

[heartstrings]

Everything God does is perfect so I don't question God's methods.

​Yes, and a lot of folks often use the phrase "God's ways are higher than our ways" in this subject too. But even LOST people can readily discern good from evil and truth from Hypocrisy. Specifically, even lost people, especially 'nonreligious' ones, can see that the concept of a god (little g), who would predetermine some folks to heaven, and others to Hell, is EVIL. Ever since Adam ate that "tree of knowledge of good and evil" we have all had that ability. God;s ways indeed are perfect, He's WAY too perfect, to practice "Determinism" ...It's evil.

Genesis 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

 

Edited May 26, 2015 by heartstrings

[heartstrings]

​God knows before things happen, what are gonna happen, and he uses those situations sometimes to work his will in all peoples lives, without predetermining anything. And in his 'using' those situations he also gets glory in our lives from him using our 'decisions' that we make, even though some we make are pretty dumb and selfish.

Maybe that clears it up? 

I am not a 'Calvinist' neither do I claim 'Calvinism' is all wrong.

​Well, I'll go all the way and claim that Calvinism is ALL wrong: all "five points" of it.

[Alan]

Heartstings,

Yea and amen! Thank you very much. I have kept thus far out of this discussion on purpose, (for numerous reasons). You hit the nail on the head. All of the 5 Points of Calvinism are in error. I think both you and No Nicolaitans have done a good job in trying to defeat the error of Calvinism.

For the record. All of the 5 Points of Calvinism, "TULIP," are in error; serious doctrinal error. Among there many errors, the Calvinists create their own definitions, use non-biblical terminology (manufactured out of their un-spiritual minds), and try and push  terminology that they invented to promote their heretical doctrines. When we are talking about free will we are really talking about, "the heart." Proverbs 4:23, ":Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." A person is saved when he has a heart belief in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour. Romans 10 

Also, as a personal testimony, I have known good soul winning men, that I graduated from Bible College with, that once they started to study, and believe, Calvinism they stopped, may I repeat, stopped soul winning efforts. Almost all of the converts of those who believe in Calvinism is through teaching and sheeep stealing. 

And, as usual, they give a few examples of good men: Spurgeon  for example. And a few, out of the context verses, and a whole lot of philosophical agruments to promote their twisted doctrines.

The main reason Calvinists like the discussion of Calvinism is that they know they will trap some brother in Christ to stop believing the scriptures and believe their god: John Calvin.  

The Calvinists use the same methods of the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses in getting their converts.

And, they have a twisted interpretation of the foreknowledge of God. God foreknows who will be saved then He predestinates that individual to "be conformed to the image of Christ." Romans 8:28 through 30, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, them them who are the called according to his pupose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,that he might be the firstborn among many brethrern. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Notice the God given order: (1) To them that love God; Salvation is first. (2) Called according to his purpose (to be saved) (3) Foreknowledge (4) "predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son." That my friend is Biblical Predestination. Any other definition is in doctrinal error. (5) After we are called: we are justified and then glorified.

Man is saved out of a heart belief in the Lord Jesus; our heart is the seat of our will, and message of salvation is for all the world. Romans 10: 8-13; John 3:16 and the rest of the Bible.

Just like it is difficult to convince a cultist it is almost a waste of time to debate a Calvinist.

 

[Alan]

Brethren,

I would suggest that you look at the definition of, "determinism." If you read the whole defintion, and understand it, you will find out a few things. Please take note. Just because the thread is talking about, "God," or, "theological determinism," does not make it biblical nor spiritual.

1. It is a wordly philosophy.

2. There is nothing biblical in it.

3. It is Calvanistic in thought and practice.

4. If you read the whole article you will notice that it is intertwined with Chinese pagan philosophy (I ching and Philosophical Taoism). Taoism is a very pagan, demonic, and idolatrous religion.

5. It has roots in the laws of Karma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism 

I am at a point of thought that maybe this whole thread should be stopped or blocked. Anything philosophy connected with,  "I Ching, " or, "Taoism," is demonic. Every day here on Taiwan I see the demonic fruits of, "I ching and Taoism." That is another reason why I have not commented thus far in this thread. and, I probably will not continue in the discussion of anything connected with, "determinism," (philosophical or theological determinism).

Alan

[John81]

​Yes, and a lot of folks often use the phrase "God's ways are higher than our ways" in this subject too. But even LOST people can readily discern good from evil and truth from Hypocrisy. Specifically, even lost people, especially 'nonreligious' ones, can see that the concept of a god (little g), who would predetermine some folks to heaven, and others to Hell, is EVIL. Ever since Adam ate that "tree of knowledge of good and evil" we have all had that ability. God;s ways indeed are perfect, He's WAY too perfect, to practice "Determinism" ...It's evil.

Genesis 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

 

​A similar argument is made by those who say since God could save everyone but doesn't it works out the same.

Jesus pointed out that had what He did been done in past cities those cities would have repented. Therefore we know God knows exactly what will and won't reach folks yet He doesn't choose to do what would get everyones attention unto repentance. Does that make God evil? Not at all!

My only point being that it's fruitless to argue about various details between those who have already set their minds in stone on the matter.

Discussion of a matter for the purpose of learning, where folks engage with open hearts and minds can be a good thing, but arguing matters between those with heart and mind already set in stone on a matter isn't.

[Alimantado]

When I've thought about it, in my mind I've not been able to reconcile God having foreknowledge of men's ways and God being the creator of men, without arriving at the conclusion that God determines men's ways. But the Bible appears to say clearly that God is not the agent of men's thoughts and decisions. So I don't try to reconcile them.

I think Calvinism is an attempt to answer some tricky philosophical questions, including some that other theological 'systems' do not touch, such as why there exists some people who are inclined to accept Christ and some who are incined not to accept Christ. But, I think Calvinism arrives at the wrong answers and I'm not inclined to accept them just because I don't have alternative answers. But I think some folk are tempted by Calvinism precisely because it does purport to provide a 'theory of everything'.

Just my view...

 

 

[ThePilgrim]

Calvin, Arminius, professor Whoever, why do we argue about their notions?  Why don't we just discuss something really important that theologians once argued about: How many angels can sit on the point of a needle or the head of a pin.  Dumb idea, isn't it?  The Christians job is to spread the gospel not to sit around and argue about Calvin, Arminius, professor Whoever's notions or anything that takes away from our time getting the gospel out.  What a waste of time it is to sit and argue about such things as freedom of the will and predestination among'st ourselves when their is real work to be done.  

I use to argue about such things myself, until I realized it is just divisive and in no way brings brothers together.    We do not have a lot of time to waste on such things so lets quit arguing and get back to doing our Lord's business.  One of Johns posts that suggested reading the book of Proverbs through once a month, I think might be a good practice for all Christians.  Wisdom is a wonderful thing.  True wisdom does not puff our heads up making it difficult to see what is important.

[wretched]

Calvin, Arminius, professor Whoever, why do we argue about their notions?  Why don't we just discuss something really important that theologians once argued about: How many angels can sit on the point of a needle or the head of a pin.  Dumb idea, isn't it?  The Christians job is to spread the gospel not to sit around and argue about Calvin, Arminius, professor Whoever's notions or anything that takes away from our time getting the gospel out.  What a waste of time it is to sit and argue about such things as freedom of the will and predestination among'st ourselves when their is real work to be done.

I use to argue about such things myself, until I realized it is just divisive and in no way brings brothers together.    We do not have a lot of time to waste on such things so lets quit arguing and get back to doing our Lord's business.  One of Johns posts that suggested reading the book of Proverbs through once a month, I think might be a good practice for all Christians.  Wisdom is a wonderful thing.  True wisdom does not puff our heads up making it difficult to see what is important.

​But they started it.......

Just kidding brother and you are right, it is so easy to get pulled into these rabbit trails

[Old-Pilgrim]

Everything God does is perfect so I don't question God's methods.

​I don't question Gods ways I do question what Gods ways are, I think Albert Einstein's view of time is wrong but popular, and I think it promotes the erroneous doctrine of Determinism, which can demotivate Christian faith somewhat...

 

I think the Star Trek Sci Fi version of TIME is one of the Devils fundamental Doctrines.

I believe the only actual time is NOW, this moment and no other. The past is in memory only and the future is in vision only, particularly God's vision. And God's vision is based on his knowledge; seers or prophets [ISa 9:9] could only see because somehow or other they were given or allowed to get partial access to Gods vision.

The LORD knows what I shall do next, simply, because he knows his creatures. I say 'simply' because I mean in a similar manner to which one of us might predict, for example, the future actions of a child, particularly if presented with a choice in the form of a question, the accuracy of our prediction will be determined by how well we know that child.
God can predict my behaviour with 100% accuracy every time because he knows everything there is to know about me.

 

[Old-Pilgrim]

 

 

​God knows before things happen, what are gonna happen, and he uses those situations sometimes to work his will in all peoples lives, without predetermining anything. And in his 'using' those situations he also gets glory in our lives from him using our 'decisions' that we make, even though some we make are pretty dumb and selfish.

Maybe that clears it up? 

I am not a 'Calvinist' neither do I claim 'Calvinism' is all wrong.

​I don't want to be dogmatic or argumentative, but I think God does determine some things, he can heard his sheep when need be, he uses his rod and staff, such as Assyria Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.... and again, Ps 17:13 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword: Ps 17:14 From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life... (this is one reason I'm glad I read the AV. Some commentators say it is unlikely that David would have prayed like this, I say they have never had a close encounter with the rod of the Lord.)

So it seems clear that the Lord can and does intervene in order to bring about his will, I'm sure he uses many other methods other than the wicked and men of the world, but keeping on the rod of the Lord for a little, I think Rom 9 here is saying that God needs his vessels of wrath (his Rod) for he has seen fit to use the wicked as an instrument to heard the sheep of his pasture that His purpose might be brought to pass,  I don't think he created them wicked for this purpose, but only that he spares the unrepentant reprobate for this purpose.

Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand...

Ro 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

So to sum my view up I would say that I believe in Semi-Determinism. Part of God and part of Man.

 

​

[John81]

When I've thought about it, in my mind I've not been able to reconcile God having foreknowledge of men's ways and God being the creator of men, without arriving at the conclusion that God determines men's ways. But the Bible appears to say clearly that God is not the agent of men's thoughts and decisions. So I don't try to reconcile them.

I think Calvinism is an attempt to answer some tricky philosophical questions, including some that other theological 'systems' do not touch, such as why there exists some people who are inclined to accept Christ and some who are incined not to accept Christ. But, I think Calvinism arrives at the wrong answers and I'm not inclined to accept them just because I don't have alternative answers. But I think some folk are tempted by Calvinism precisely because it does purport to provide a 'theory of everything'.

Just my view...

 

 

​This in itself would be worthy of exploration if such were possible without it becoming just another battleground. I've heard one pastor touch upon this but he mostly raised questions which he never got around to offering any possible answers for.

Why is it that two (or more) very similar people can hear a sermon and one is fully convicted, repents and is born again while the other(s) are not?

Why do some people spend their lives in a church where the Gospel is preached and are never born again yet a career criminal on his umpteenth sentence in prison hears the Gospel once and is born again?

Why are some people rebellious from an early age and even tho they know the Word, say they want to follow Jesus, but continually choose the world instead?

Why do we see one person get saved and then their whole family saved shortly after but then other families where the whole family turns against the one saved?

Why do see the Gospel ridiculed and rejected to quickly here but in some parts of the world the people willingly give up all to follow Jesus?

Many other questions could be considered but all too often when such is brought up it seems trite answers are quickly put forth and the subject changed or the one asking finds their faith, or even salvation, questioned for asking such questions.

Why do we think we can, or must, know everything when there is no record of any mere man having ever achieved such?

[ThePilgrim]

​This in itself would be worthy of exploration if such were possible without it becoming just another battleground. I've heard one pastor touch upon this but he mostly raised questions which he never got around to offering any possible answers for.

Why is it that two (or more) very similar people can hear a sermon and one is fully convicted, repents and is born again while the other(s) are not?

Why do some people spend their lives in a church where the Gospel is preached and are never born again yet a career criminal on his umpteenth sentence in prison hears the Gospel once and is born again?

Why are some people rebellious from an early age and even tho they know the Word, say they want to follow Jesus, but continually choose the world instead?

Why do we see one person get saved and then their whole family saved shortly after but then other families where the whole family turns against the one saved?

Why do see the Gospel ridiculed and rejected to quickly here but in some parts of the world the people willingly give up all to follow Jesus?

Many other questions could be considered but all too often when such is brought up it seems trite answers are quickly put forth and the subject changed or the one asking finds their faith, or even salvation, questioned for asking such questions.

Why do we think we can, or must, know everything when there is no record of any mere man having ever achieved such?

​Amen!  Let's just do what our Lord told us to do, get the Word out, and quit arguing about how God does His work.  A question: Did Jesus sit and argue for hours with anyone or did he state the case and let the Father and the Holy Spirit do the work from that point?

[Ukulelemike]

 

​I don't want to be dogmatic or argumentative, but I think God does determine some things, he can heard his sheep when need be, he uses his rod and staff, such as Assyria Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.... and again, Ps 17:13 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword: Ps 17:14 From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life... (this is one reason I'm glad I read the AV. Some commentators say it is unlikely that David would have prayed like this, I say they have never had a close encounter with the rod of the Lord.)

So it seems clear that the Lord can and does intervene in order to bring about his will, I'm sure he uses many other methods other than the wicked and men of the world, but keeping on the rod of the Lord for a little, I think Rom 9 here is saying that God needs his vessels of wrath (his Rod) for he has seen fit to use the wicked as an instrument to heard the sheep of his pasture that His purpose might be brought to pass,  I don't think he created them wicked for this purpose, but only that he spares the unrepentant reprobate for this purpose.

Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand...

Ro 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

So to sum my view up I would say that I believe in Semi-Determinism. Part of God and part of Man.

 

​

​I would agree with this idea of a somewhat partial-determinism.

 The Bible says "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." In Romans 9:17, one of the chapters the Calvinists like to try to use to back their doctrine, it says, "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

What it seems to me, is that, particularly, rulers are directed more by the hand of God than average people. Rulers are placed into their particular positions by the hand of God, I believe, and they are directed, at least to a point, to do certain things that will result eventually in God's desired outcome. I don't think they are puppets, but I do believe, because of their great influence on world events, that the Lord does, indeed, turn them where He would, and He raises up some to shew His power in them.  I personally believe that the Lord caused Hitler to do the great atrocities against the Jews that he did, so that the world might pity them, and thus, result in the land of Israel once again being established. We often may wonder why our military didn't do more to help the Jews being shipped to Auschwitcz-I heard a conservative radio personality ask that, "Why didn't we bomb the tracks that the Germans used to transport the Jews to the death camps?" Simply because they didn't want to-no one liked or particularly cared about the Jews at that time. Germany sent thousands off in a cruise ship to other countries, and offered them to take them, including the USA, but everyone turned them back and they ended up back in Germany. No one was willing to help them--but no one really wanted them whole-scale slaughtered, either, and when that was the result., I think an international sense of shame and guilt arose, as each nation who claimed to care, had to admit that they could have helped, but didn't. We were partially to blame for the holocaust, so in pity we rewarded them the nation of Israel.    Could it have happened any other way?  So tell me God didn't use it.

So yeah, I believe there are some that don't have as much freedom of choice as others, though I think they have the same freedom to choose salvation as any others.

As for believers, I know in my own life that there have been times when I made decisions, only because I was placed into a position where I had no choice, and I believe it was the hand of God leading me where I didn't much want to go. But the end result was very positive. I could have chosen otherwise, but it would have been like saying Jonah could have chosen to keep rebelling against God as he sat in the fish's belly. Sure I COULD choose otherwise, but the end result would be a slow  and uncomfortable demise. Not a hard decision. Paul COULD have chosen to reject Jesus when he met Him on the road to Damascus, but he would have been blind and had to knowingly reject the very God he claimed to serve, in order to keep his place and position. COULD choose, but not a very good choice.  

[Alimantado]

I believe the only actual time is NOW, this moment and no other. The past is in memory only and the future is in vision only, particularly God's vision. And God's vision is based on his knowledge; seers or prophets [ISa 9:9] could only see because somehow or other they were given or allowed to get partial access to Gods vision.

The LORD knows what I shall do next, simply, because he knows his creatures. I say 'simply' because I mean in a similar manner to which one of us might predict, for example, the future actions of a child, particularly if presented with a choice in the form of a question, the accuracy of our prediction will be determined by how well we know that child.
God can predict my behaviour with 100% accuracy every time because he knows everything there is to know about me.

​The idea that God has strong or perfect predictive powers but not true foreknowledge sounds like straight forward Open Theism to me.