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DaveW

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Nice Bob...including a quote with foul language from a man that I can't verify exists.

A quote that takes God's word so far out of context, it's not even worth trying to correct...the rubbish speaks for itself.

​Foul language?  Where?  And I see nothing out of context there.   The Bible clearly says what it says.  We are to Believe it and follow it.

I still think you're a troll...

Well, I really care about what Jesus thinks, and not what some man on the internet may think of me or my dedication to the cause of Christ.

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Well we can clearly see the faulty use of God's Word in that rubbish.

So many errors of fact - not even "different inerpretation" - just plain misunderstanding - or is it deliberate misrepresentation?

Just to show one:

Why did "the husband and wife" die?

The Bible actually explains that this (false) preacher is wrong. He simply can't read......

 

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​Foul language?  Where? 

Where? Here...

 

 

 It is only so often that we hear heathens proclaim spiritual rubbish along the lines of "Jesus hates nobody".  My typical response to educate these pagans and cultural pseudo-Christians is

"What the hell do you mean that Jesus doesn't hate?"

The use of the word "hell" in such a way is foul language.

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"God so loves the world that He gave..."? Sorry, but the English language does not allow for such a mangling of verb tenses. Your proposed revision is not a possibility. 

I feel like I remember a Reverend Cooper back a while... Any chance you're related to him?

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I see so many things that are Scripturally wrong with that statement!  First off, as mentioned by others in this thread, Christ died for us.  In the past.  He loved the world. (John 3:16).  Loved is in past tense, referring to something that happened or was the case in the past.  Now let's take a look at John 3:17-18: "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.Notice that it says that though Him the world might be Saved.  Not "will be Saved," not "going to be Saved," not even "may be Saved".  In other words, there is only a some odd chance that one actually will be Saved.  That's not me making things up, or claiming something I want.  In fact, I don't want most anyone to go to Hell.  That's just plain and careful reading of the Christian Bible and accepting what it says.  Then the Bible goes on to tell us that those that don't believe (present tense) are condemned already.  Anyway you look at it, this is not an expression of unconditional love that "love preachers" often claim by taking John 3:16 out of context.

Regarding your marriage analogy, that is rather unscriptural.  When we are Born Again, we are converted.  We are not same persons that we were before we were Saved.  So to use your analogy, it would be more like, "if you really wished to change, and become an entirely different person, full of Grace and goodness and charity, then I would love you."  Of course, the Salvation equation is not that simple, and neither are the issues of Jesus' love for His Elect and the despise He has for the reprobate children of the devil. (John 8:44-45)

​The very fact that God exists outside of linear time, to which we are subject, negates your entire argument. You base your theory upon time, past and present-yet God exists outside of that timeline, He is not subject to it. However, the language is given in a way that will apply to our linear sensibilities. Consider:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Rom 8:29, 30)

What we see here, is that God, from the beginning, foreknew those who would be His, and thus, predestined us to be conformed to His Son. Notice, not predestined to be saved, but to conformed to Jesus Christ. This all happened at the beginning, He knew each of us, knew what we would do, the decisions we would make. Thus, he then predestined us to be as Christ, and He called us and He justified us, or, if you will, declared us righteous, and then TAKE NOTE OF THIS, PLEASE, 'them he also glorified'. Notice, that is in the PAST tense. Now, most of us here would agree that we are not yet glorified, BUT, Paul here says that God has already glorified us. Already done. How is that? Well, because according to God, who is, was and shall be, all at the same time, the great I AM, we are already glorified. We are already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, according to Eph 2:6.

So to make your argument based on past/present/future concerning what God has or shall do, is a straw argument, because according to scripture we are already glorified and seated with Christ.  The God so LOVED the word, doesn't change the fact that He still LOVES the word, and will love the world. He loved it from the time He created it and will love it always, and the offering of His Son Jesus Christ, whose sacrifice covers all those who believe in all times, is not just past, but always. All my sins, past present and future, (to me) have already been forgiven in Christ, and in the mind of God, have been always. He knew me as His child before I was a gleam in my daddy's eye, before anyone was a gleam in anyone's eye.    

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​The very fact that God exists outside of linear time, to which we are subject, negates your entire argument. You base your theory upon time, past and present-yet God exists outside of that timeline, He is not subject to it. However, the language is given in a way that will apply to our linear sensibilities. Consider:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Rom 8:29, 30)

What we see here, is that God, from the beginning, foreknew those who would be His, and thus, predestined us to be conformed to His Son. Notice, not predestined to be saved, but to conformed to Jesus Christ. This all happened at the beginning, He knew each of us, knew what we would do, the decisions we would make. Thus, he then predestined us to be as Christ, and He called us and He justified us, or, if you will, declared us righteous, and then TAKE NOTE OF THIS, PLEASE, 'them he also glorified'. Notice, that is in the PAST tense. Now, most of us here would agree that we are not yet glorified, BUT, Paul here says that God has already glorified us. Already done. How is that? Well, because according to God, who is, was and shall be, all at the same time, the great I AM, we are already glorified. We are already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, according to Eph 2:6.

So to make your argument based on past/present/future concerning what God has or shall do, is a straw argument, because according to scripture we are already glorified and seated with Christ.  The God so LOVED the word, doesn't change the fact that He still LOVES the word, and will love the world. He loved it from the time He created it and will love it always, and the offering of His Son Jesus Christ, whose sacrifice covers all those who believe in all times, is not just past, but always. All my sins, past present and future, (to me) have already been forgiven in Christ, and in the mind of God, have been always. He knew me as His child before I was a gleam in my daddy's eye, before anyone was a gleam in anyone's eye.    

​The argument is not based on whether God is temporal or not, but on the plain reading of the Christian Bible.  Jesus wrote the Bible for us, not for Himself.  The timeframe references are for the readers, to tell us the way things were, the way they are, and the way they will be.

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Ukelelemike,

Thank you very much for your excellent biblical definition of predestination according to Romans 8:29 & 30 and Ephesians 2:6. And, that all of the blessings, or fruits, of salvation is due to the foreknowledge of God as brought out in Romans 8:29. I also appreciate your bold stand that are are predestinated, "... to be conformed to the image of his son," and not salvation as the Calvinist decrees.  

Our Calvinist friends forget (either through ignorance, or, deliberate forethought), or just ignore, the foreknowledge of God and the reason for predestination.

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​That's not an example of plain and careful reading. That's an example of eisegetical reading (i.e. reading your assumptions into it) while ignoring the rest of Scripture. You're quibbling over past and present tense when it makes no contextual sense to do so. As mentioned above, if we take your method of reading with Romans 5:8, then God still hates you and you're going to hell. You see, it says that Christ died, which is past tense. It also says that He died while we were sinners so unless you were born and living in Rome in the first century then Paul wasn't talking to you. You weren't born yet so you couldn't have sinned yet. That's all past tense, so I'm sorry to tell you, you're not one of the elect.

Furthermore, Romans 10:13 and Acts 2:21 make clear that anyone can call on Jesus and they will be saved with certainty. Unfortunately for your point of view, 1 John 2:2 says that Jesus was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. That's an all-inclusive term, so you either have to admit that limited atonement is false, or you have to say that since it was past tense He isn't the propitiation for sins now, just back then, which means once again...you're not one of the elect because that was past tense and you're in the present almost 2000 years later.

Your reading is not plain and careful. It's sloppy and based on your own preconceived notions.

​The argument is not based on whether God is temporal or not, but on the plain reading of the Christian Bible.  Jesus wrote the Bible for us, not for Himself.  The timeframe references are for the readers, to tell us the way things were, the way they are, and the way they will be.

​Perhaps in all of the conversations you missed the post above, so I've quoted it here to give you a chance to respond if you so choose since you clearly still think what you're doing is a "plain reading."

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​The argument is not based on whether God is temporal or not, but on the plain reading of the Christian Bible.  Jesus wrote the Bible for us, not for Himself.  The timeframe references are for the readers, to tell us the way things were, the way they are, and the way they will be.

​And yet, it is written clearly in a manner that seems to defy a linear mindset in some cases for a reason: to remind us of God's view on things. We see from a past/present/future, yet God tells us that we are already seated in heavenly places, and we are already glorified. Thus, when we consider such things as "For God so LOVED the world..." since God is outside of time, it is impossible for Him to limit His love for the world in a specific time period, unless He was to lay it out clearly for us. We have no qualification to say, "Well, God loved from this time to this time, but He no longer loves the world" That's ridiculous, else we should also declare that Jesus' sacrifice which is past, was only given for those of the past, not for us. When did His grace end? We would say, it hasn't ended, not until the end. So then, who can we declare God's love ended? God's love is part and parcel with Jesus' salvation and grace-they are inextricably entwined.

Rom 5:8 says "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." See, God COMMENDETH. That is an active term. God is still commending His love toward us, toward all, and the proof is that Christ died for us. Now, before you say, 'Yes, died for the elect', John 3:16 reminds us that according to God's love Jesus was sent for 'whosoever believeth'. Indeed, these ARE the elect, but also for everyone-the elect are those who the Lord, by His foreknowledge, knew would receive, and thus, elected them to be conformed to His Son. So, that commendation is for ALL. Jesus died for the sin of the WORLD, hence, all, for ALL the lost, including those who would ultimately not choose salvation. "And I, if I be lifted up, shall draw all men..."

So, God STILL loves all, and Jesus' grace is still offered to all who will hear, as well as to all who won't, hence they are without excuse.

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​And yet, it is written clearly in a manner that seems to defy a linear mindset in some cases for a reason: to remind us of God's view on things. We see from a past/present/future, yet God tells us that we are already seated in heavenly places, and we are already glorified. Thus, when we consider such things as "For God so LOVED the world..." since God is outside of time, it is impossible for Him to limit His love for the world in a specific time period, unless He was to lay it out clearly for us. We have no qualification to say, "Well, God loved from this time to this time, but He no longer loves the world" That's ridiculous, else we should also declare that Jesus' sacrifice which is past, was only given for those of the past, not for us. When did His grace end? We would say, it hasn't ended, not until the end. So then, who can we declare God's love ended? God's love is part and parcel with Jesus' salvation and grace-they are inextricably entwined.

​So did He love the world at the time of Noah?  Was the Flood an expression of love?

 

Rom 5:8 says "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." See, God COMMENDETH.

 This verse talks about true Christians, not satanists.  Read it in context. Nowhere in the Christian Bible does it say that Jesus loves satanists. 

Edited by RevBob

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Furthermore, Romans 10:13 and Acts 2:21 make clear that anyone can call on Jesus and they will be saved with certainty. Unfortunately for your point of view, 1 John 2:2 says that Jesus was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. That's an all-inclusive term, so you either have to admit that limited atonement is false, or you have to say that since it was past tense He isn't the propitiation for sins now, just back then, which means once again...you're not one of the elect because that was past tense and you're in the present almost 2000 years later.

​Yes, anyone call on Jesus to become born again.  Not everyone will.  None of the verses you cite above contradict the plain and detailed reading of John 3:16-18.

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​Yes, anyone call on Jesus to become born again.  Not everyone will.  None of the verses you cite above contradict the plain and detailed reading of John 3:16-18.

​You completely missed the entire point about your focus on past/present tense being self-defeating. If you're going to play that game, then you have to do it in every instance, otherwise you're just cherry-picking based on what you want to believe. Also, if you're going to hang your belief system on the minutia of grammar, you should probably take more care to understand the grammar. The "loved" word you're unwisely focusing on is in the aorist tense, which is an undefined action that normally occurs in the past and not in the imperfect tense which is a completed action that normally occurs in the past. If God wanted to communicate to us that His love for the world was only during a finite window and came to an end at a particular time, it would be in the imperfect tense, but it's not. Once again, your premise fails. Please study harder.

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​You completely missed the entire point about your focus on past/present tense being self-defeating. If you're going to play that game,

​I'm not playing any games.  Bible says what it says.  We're to read it, believe it, and follow it. 

then you have to do it in every instance, otherwise you're just cherry-picking based on what you want to believe.

Why would you have to do it in every instance?  It's not cherry-picking anything to read the plain and CONTEXTUAL meaning.  Also, what's this "want to believe"?  I'm a true Christian--I don't "want" to believe anything other than what the Bible says.

The "loved" word you're unwisely focusing on is in the aorist tense, which is an undefined action that normally occurs in the past and not in the imperfect tense which is a completed action that normally occurs in the past. If God wanted to communicate to us that His love for the world was only during a finite window and came to an end at a particular time, it would be in the imperfect tense, but it's not. Once again, your premise fails. Please study harder.

I suggest that you study harder.  Do you tell your wife or children that you loved them or that you love them?  Would you tell you wife something along the lines of "honey, I loved you so much that I bought you the best set of pots and pans I could find"?  Would you tell you child, "I loved you so much that I got you the best Nerf gun they had at the toy store?"

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​So did He love the world at the time of Noah?  Was the Flood an expression of love?

 This verse talks about true Christians, not satanists.  Read it in context. Nowhere in the Christian Bible does it say that Jesus loves satanists. 

Romans 6:8 says that Christ died for the ungodly. That's a fairly comprehensive term - and it is not limited. Therefore, it includes satanists. (Although why you've jumped immediately to that particular example is beyond me.)

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Romans 6:8 says that Christ died for the ungodly. That's a fairly comprehensive term - and it is not limited. Therefore, it includes satanists. (Although why you've jumped immediately to that particular example is beyond me.)

​A satanist is anyone who is not a true Christian.  Matthew 12:30.

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​A satanist is anyone who is not a true Christian.  Matthew 12:30.

Bob,

It would be helpful if you refrained from the explicatives our Holy God uses to describe sin and realize your sinful state saved only by Grace. You are simply a "Satanist" saved by Grace.

Be thankful that some former Satanist had mercy on your sorry satanist self and shared the Gospel with you.  Let your thankfulness translate into true compassion for the lost as our Lord has and try harder to conform yourself into His image instead of this prideful (soon to fall hard) holier than thou you portray yourself as.

Our Lord was harsh only with the false religious devils (jury is still out but the evidence is piling up against you to include you with these devils) and never with the common sinners, read your Bible and stop following morons.

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Bob,

It would be helpful if you refrained from the explicatives our Holy God uses to describe sin and realize your sinful state saved only by Grace. You are simply a "Satanist" saved by Grace.

​It would be helpful if you refrained from making ridiculous accusations about me.

Be thankful that some former Satanist had mercy on your sorry satanist self and shared the Gospel with you.  Let your thankfulness translate into true compassion for the lost as our Lord has and try harder to conform yourself into His image instead of this prideful (soon to fall hard) holier than thou you portray yourself as.

More ridiculous accusations from you.  And I was a sinner/satanist.  Then I was Saved by Grace!

 

 

Our Lord was harsh only with the false religious devils (jury is still out but the evidence is piling up against you to include you with these devils) and never with the common sinners, read your Bible and stop following morons.

I don't know whom you follow, but I follow Jesus!

Edited by RevBob
added video

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I don't know whom you follow, but I follow Jesus!

​Hardly guy.

Our Lord's example of compassion for the lost is clearly displayed in the Gospels. It appears the Scripture references your revered and esteemed and great muttenheads gave you to quote are Old Testament attempting to justify your self righteous view of sinners just like you.

 

 

Edited by wretched

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​It would be helpful if you refrained from making ridiculous accusations about me.

More ridiculous accusations from you.  And I was a sinner/satanist.  Then I was Saved by Grace!

 

 

I don't know whom you follow, but I follow Jesus!

​who's the guy on video?

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