denial by avoidance

[DaveW]

Some time ago, I had the misfortune to have a rabid calvinist visit with our church.

He asked if he could could come and "have a friendly chat about spiritual things" with me and so we organised a time.

I knew what his agenda was by observing him when he visited our church, but I hoped he really did just want a friendly chat.

As the discussion progressed he moved quickly onto predestination, election etc, and as it became apparent to him that I would not bow to his false teaching, the discussion tone quickly changed from friendly to combative.

In the end I confronted him with the use of the term "calvinism" to which he replied "I never used that name".

He also denied association with "the doctrines of grace" (so called).

In other words, whilst both he and I knew what he was pushing, he lied about his association with it,  protesting against what he was clearly arguing for, and becoming quite aggressive when I challenged him on it.

I find this common amongst those who teach Calvin's doctrine - they realise the name is not liked so they try to distance themselves from the name whilst teaching the lie.

 

They tend to shy away from the names applied and get angry when you use the name, but still teach their poison.

 

It is true of other false doctrines too, but most obvious with Calvy's in my experience.

[2bLikeJesus]

I am amused by how surprised they are when you quickly put a finger on their belief and outline it for them.  I don't know how many SDA's I have ferreted out within minutes who were shocked that I could put a finger on their denomination so quickly.  

[John81]

Other than what I might call "rabid Calvinists" or hyper-Calvinists, most "Calvinists" I know share the position that Spurgeon held, that their view of predestination and election stem mostly from the writings of Paul. Some refer to their view as "Pauline doctrine" while others simply call it "Bible doctrine". They reject the term "Calvinism" because they don't believe their beliefs began with him and because they believe Calvin was off in many other areas.

There are those who hold to the more rabid or hyper brand of "Calvinism" which do avoid the label of "Calvinist", and just about any other term of distinction, in order to try and deceive or deny some point of their beliefs. Thus far, I've only encountered these sorts online, never in person.

Thankfully, I've never encountered a pushy or combative "Calvinist" either in person or a church or Christian event. I have, however, encountered several online.

[2bLikeJesus]

Unfortunately my daughter is married to a hyper-Calvinist (Christian Reformed Church).  I have had to combat his churches teachings for years with my daughter.  They are still upset with me because the of the one time I visited their church for my daughters "baptism" (sprinkled).  After they got my daughters hair wet, they had communion...with fully leavened bread...and fermented wine, which of course I flatly refused to participate in.  This was a great offense to her husband even though I explained to him completely why I was refusing.  Including showing how that "leaven" is always pictured as a type of sin in the bible, and having communion with leavened bread and wine makes Jesus' body and blood with sin in it.  

[DaveW]

Unfortunate situation, but of course you were right.

 

No such thing as a "hyper-calvinist" by the way.  What people refer to as such are just plain calvinists - it is what he taught.

But I know what you mean.

[John81]

Unfortunately my daughter is married to a hyper-Calvinist (Christian Reformed Church).  I have had to combat his churches teachings for years with my daughter.  They are still upset with me because the of the one time I visited their church for my daughters "baptism" (sprinkled).  After they got my daughters hair wet, they had communion...with fully leavened bread...and fermented wine, which of course I flatly refused to participate in.  This was a great offense to her husband even though I explained to him completely why I was refusing.  Including showing how that "leaven" is always pictured as a type of sin in the bible, and having communion with leavened bread and wine makes Jesus' body and blood with sin in it.  

​Considering all the problems that church seems to have perhaps they should just be glad you showed up and not upset about the rest.

I've taken flak for not attending baptism services for people (including family) where they teach baptism equals salvation.

I've also been in situations, mostly years ago, where I wouldn't partake of the Lord's Supper at their church because of their manner of doing so which I didn't believe it would be right for me to partake of that.

There are so many dangers out there, both inside and outside churches, and it's sad to see how many folks get caught up in them. For some it might not be a matter of saved or unsaved for them, but for many (most in some cases) the dangers do involve whether one is actually saved or unsaved but fooled into thinking they are saved.

[HappyChristian]

Do any of you find a difference in attitude from those who say they are 2- or 3-point calvy vs 5-pt?

 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

5-point seems more arrogant.  Insist they are of the elect and that is why God saved them.  Much like the Pharisee of Luke 18.  

[John81]

Thankfully, other than online, I've not encountered any "Calvinists" who had a bad attitude or were arrogant. Those I've had talks with were very humble at the idea God had chose them since they recognized they had done nothing worthy of being chosen.

Most I've met, either in person or inline, who said they believed a couple "points" were not actually "Calvinists". I found this especially true of those I've been able to have in-depth conversations with. When it came right down to it, their actual views probably wouldn't be considered by most "Calvinists" to actually agree with them.

Among the most arrogant and obnoxious Christians I've encountered online were hyper-Calvinists (I wish I could remember what Spurgeon called them because I think I liked that term better). They were more along the lines of the Pharisees in thinking themselves a specially chosen people above all others. Like the Pharisees they seemed to revel in putting others down to elevate themselves. As well, they seemed to believe they were the only ones who truly understood Scripture.

The only other Christians I've encountered online which were similar in attitude were some hyper-Ruckmanites.

[DaveW]

Again John, there is no such thing as a "hyper-calvinist" and I wish you would stop using this term - especially in a thread which I have started, since you are aware of my view on this.

Have a look at Calvin's teaching and you find that there are only Calvinists - it IS what he taught.

Some call themselves 2 point  or 3 point or 4 point - even 7 point! - but there is no-one more calvinistic than Calvin and therefore no such thing as a "hyper-calvinist".

This is a construct very similar to what the muslims do - deny the far end and the mild becomes acceptable.

Well the truth is that Calvin's doctrine teaches salvation not by grace through faith, but by God's  choice. In fact there is no faith involved in Calvin's  scheme and therefore it is not salvation - it is "another gospel which is not another".

[beameup]

How do they handle Romans 11:25-27?

[John81]

Again John, there is no such thing as a "hyper-calvinist" and I wish you would stop using this term - especially in a thread which I have started, since you are aware of my view on this.

Have a look at Calvin's teaching and you find that there are only Calvinists - it IS what he taught.

Some call themselves 2 point  or 3 point or 4 point - even 7 point! - but there is no-one more calvinistic than Calvin and therefore no such thing as a "hyper-calvinist".

This is a construct very similar to what the muslims do - deny the far end and the mild becomes acceptable.

Well the truth is that Calvin's doctrine teaches salvation not by grace through faith, but by God's  choice. In fact there is no faith involved in Calvin's  scheme and therefore it is not salvation - it is "another gospel which is not another".

​No intention to offend. While you may not see the difference between those known as "hypers" and others who fall under the "Calvinist" umbrella, there are differences, sometimes vast differences.

As it's your thread, I will abide by your wish.

As to the point of what Calvinists believe, I've never met a single Calvinist who believes as you put forth in your last paragraph. That said, I want to be clear, I have no doubt there are some out there who do fall into the category of what you said; it's just that I've not met any of those myself.

 

[DaveW]

I never said there were not vast differences amongst calvinists.

But if you understand what calvin actually taught you will know that there can be no such thing as a "hyper-calvinist". 

Hyper means beyond or extreme, and most who call themselves calvinist are just like you and don't understand what calvin actually taught.

Those who do believe what calvin actually taught are not saved, for they are not trusting in the shed blood of Christ, but in the choice of God.

I have asked time and time again for a record of Calvin's salvation testimony and no calvinist has ever shown it to me. I have asked here and elsewhere and the result is always the same : silence.

I searched for such a testimony in many many books, and on line but have never found it.

Calvin knew nothing of Biblical salvation.

Having said that, there are many who call themselves calvinists  who do not understand what he actually taught and are in fact saved.

I would never claim that a person is not saved simply because they call themselves a calvinist - but the TEACHINGS of calvin lead to the lake of fire.

[HappyChristian]

Interesting - I've not heard there are 7-pointers...what are the two beyond TULIP?

[DaveW]

Interesting - I've not heard there are 7-pointers...what are the two beyond TULIP?

To be honest I can't remember - I didn't pay a lot of attention at that point..........

I think they were loophole explanations - trying to soften off things like double predestination which calvin taught.

The reality is that his 5 points are an all or nothing thing - you have to have them all or the whole house of cards falls.

Edited April 13, 2015 by DaveW