Members Genevanpreacher Posted April 5, 2015 Members Share Posted April 5, 2015 So you are happy then to change the meaning of shall to suit your statements?I am happy to follow the whole chapter in Romans and not just take one verse out of that context like the common misguided preacher who wants to pick up his attendance numbers to make himself look more spiritual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaveW Posted April 5, 2015 Members Share Posted April 5, 2015 I am happy to follow the whole chapter in Romans and not just take one verse out of that context like the common misguided preacher who wants to pick up his attendance numbers to make himself look more spiritual. So there's no chance that such a man could be genuinely mistaken?He MUST be taking it out of context with the intent to deceive to increase attendance numbers?I stand in awe of your superior insight and spirituality........ Personally I have found that section of Romans messes with a lot of people's theology.But I tend to accept what is written as it is written - poor humble dumb little bloke that I am. That is about my limit, and I am afraid it limits me to what what is written.Just not smart enough to figure out alternate meanings to words....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Young Posted April 5, 2015 Author Members Share Posted April 5, 2015 (edited) Faith from the heart with the Spirit gives the man salvation but the confession gives the evidence. Its as simple as that.Their is no need to argue the simantics of will vs shall. Its dangous taritory when trying to base doctrines on the nuances of single words rather then the whole context of scripture.(Side note: "Irregardlsss" is not a proper word either but we all understood what was ment....) Edited April 5, 2015 by John Young Alan and DaveW 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted April 6, 2015 Members Share Posted April 6, 2015 (Side note: "Irregardlsss" is not a proper word either but we all understood what was ment....) From Merriam Webster site an Encyclopedia Britannica Company:POPULARITY irregardless adverb ir·re·gard·less \ˌir-i-ˈgärd-ləs\Definition of IRREGARDLESSnonstandard: regardlessUsage Discussion of IRREGARDLESSIrregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. John Young 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Young Posted April 6, 2015 Author Members Share Posted April 6, 2015 I agree that is is a word. Just not a proper word. "and it is still a long way from general acceptance." "Regardless" or "irrespective" is the proper word.... However, I digress in pointing it out. It was just too fun to pass up! Genevanpreacher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted April 6, 2015 Members Share Posted April 6, 2015 John 5:2424Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Word Origin and History for shallExpandv. Old English sceal, Northumbrian scule "I owe/he owes, will have to, ought to, must" (infinitive sculan, past tense sceolde), a common Germanic preterite-present verb (along with can, may, will), from Proto-Germanic *skal- (cf. Old Saxon sculan, Old Frisian skil, Old Norse and Swedish skola, Middle Dutch sullen, Old High German solan, German sollen, Gothic skulan "to owe, be under obligation;" related via past tense form to Old English scyld "guilt," German Schuld "guilt, debt;" also Old Norse Skuld, name of one of the Norns), from PIE root *skel- (2) "to be under an obligation." Ground sense of the Germanic word probably is "I owe," hence "I ought." The sense shifted in Middle English from a notion of "obligation" to include "futurity." Its past tense form has become should (q.v.). Cognates outside Germanic are Lithuanian skeleti "to be guilty," skilti "to get into debt;" Old Prussian skallisnan "duty," skellants "guilty." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted April 6, 2015 Members Share Posted April 6, 2015 WILLWord Origin and History for willExpandv. Old English *willan, wyllan "to wish, desire, want" (past tense wolde), from Proto-Germanic *welljan (cf. Old Saxon willian, Old Norse vilja, Old Frisian willa, Dutch willen, Old High German wellan, German wollen, Gothic wiljan "to will, wish, desire," Gothic waljan "to choose"). The Germanic words are from PIE *wel-/*wol- "be pleasing" (cf. Sanskrit vrnoti "chooses, prefers," varyah "to be chosen, eligible, excellent," varanam "choosing;" Avestan verenav- "to wish, will, choose;" Greek elpis "hope;" Latin volo, velle "to wish, will, desire;" Old Church Slavonic voljo, voliti "to will," veljo, veleti "to command;" Lithuanian velyti "to wish, favor," pa-vel-mi "I will," viliuos "I hope;" Welsh gwell "better"). Cf. also Old English wel "well," literally "according to one's wish;" wela "well-being, riches." The use as a future auxiliary was already developing in Old English. The implication of intention or volition distinguishes it from shall, which expresses or implies obligation or necessity. Contracted forms, especially after pronouns, began to appear 16c., as in sheele for "she will." The form with an apostrophe is from 17c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted April 6, 2015 Members Share Posted April 6, 2015 (edited) We seem to treat the two words "will" and "shall" as having the same meaning; but isn't so. For instance, it is God's "Will" (desire) that everyone be saved; but of course we know that not everyone is going to be. But in verses like John 5:24 it uses the much stronger word: "shall". According to the word origin reference above. John 5:24 is saying that one who believes "is obligated to be" saved. Why? Because God Himself made the promise and it is contingent upon his word. God does not go back on His Word. He obligates Himself to it. This isn't something that God merely "desires" to come to pass; He's saying that it is going to happen, it's a done deal. Just thought I would point that out. Edited April 7, 2015 by heartstrings clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted April 6, 2015 Members Share Posted April 6, 2015 (edited) I'm agreeing with one thing that I think "GenevaPreacher" is saying:You get saved when you believe, in your heart. As an example, does everyone know of Stephen Hawking? Stephen Hawking can communicate with a machine. But what if that machine breaks down? What about other mute people with ALS who are trapped inside their own bodies? If someone like that ever believes on Jesus, I promise you his spirit will cry out in a loud enough voice for God to hear and he "shall" be saved and he "shall" not come into condemnation. Furthermore, salvation takes no steps. God already took all the "steps": all we have to do is believe on Jesus. Edited April 6, 2015 by heartstrings to add John Young, Genevanpreacher and ThePilgrim 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted April 7, 2015 Members Share Posted April 7, 2015 So which is it?We call upon the name of the Lord? or - as Acts 2:39-47:For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MountainChristian Posted April 7, 2015 Members Share Posted April 7, 2015 heartstrings and DaveW 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaveW Posted April 7, 2015 Members Share Posted April 7, 2015 It also depends on what you are really trying to teach........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted April 7, 2015 Members Share Posted April 7, 2015 So which is it?We call upon the name of the Lord? or - as Acts 2:39-47:For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. I don't know what you're trying to say. perhaps you could tell me what you think this verse means...Acts 13:4848And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted April 8, 2015 Members Share Posted April 8, 2015 I don't know what you're trying to say. perhaps you could tell me what you think this verse means...Acts 13:4848And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.. I was just showing that it is the Lord who does the calling, which the Lord Jesus called 'draw' in John 6:44."No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."I will get back to you on Acts 13:48, my wife just dipped up ice cream! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Young Posted April 8, 2015 Author Members Share Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) To be clear the drawing of the Spirit is not a mystical thing. The Spirit draws all men by the hearing of His spoken word through the preaching of saved people and their biblical witnessing materials (His word transmitted in print and comprehended as speech in the mind of the reader). If you hear the word and have faith because of them then you are "elected and ordained" by God to be saved. (John 6:63, Romans 10:13-15.)Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Written Word:Exodus 34:27 And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.Jeremiah 36:2 a. Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words....Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.Spoken Word:2 Samuel 23:2 The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.Isaiah 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:Ephesians 1:13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Combined written and spoken Word:Acts 8:29-31 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither tohim, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. Edited April 8, 2015 by John Young Rebecca, MountainChristian and Alan 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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