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John Young

"'Oops, I missed a step' Salvation."

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Here's one more:

 The Greek word "tasso", the very same word which was translated as "ordained" in Acts 13:48, is translated into the following word in 1 Corinthians..

1Corinthians 16:15

 

 

I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints.

 

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Oh wait....here's a modern example of some gentiles which were ordained, fix, set in order, or "tasso" to eternal life. but unfortunately, they never received it and went straight to Hell instead: when the September 11 hijackers flew those planes into the Pennsylvania field, the Pentagon, and the WTC, they committed suicide fully expecting to meet "Allah" on the other side. They, didn't have Jesus so they went to Hell, but their lives were fully set, fixed, established, ordered and "tasso" to the paradise they expected.

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OK, one more example:

Why did the Egyptians, most notably the Pharaohs, spend staggering amounts of their fortunes over decades, just to build their own tombs? Because they, too, were gentiles which ordered their lives toward the afterlife, fully expecting their "ka" to meet "ra". Hey..that rhymed/ :)

 I know that was a bunch or rigamarole. My point is, the Gentiles in Acts 13 simply had their hearts set and fixed on living forever after they died and when they heard the Gospel preached, the ones who wanted eternal life, gladly believed. God did not ordain them, they were disposed to it of their own free will. Just like the sinner in Chaucer's 14th century tale had addicted himself to his own lust and became "ordained" to concupiscence, they had "ordained" themselves to the attaining the afterlife.

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To be clear the drawing of the Spirit is not a mystical thing. The Spirit draws all men by the hearing of His spoken word through the preaching of saved people and their biblical witnessing materials (His word transmitted in print and comprehended as speech in the mind of the reader). If you hear the word and have faith because of them then you are "elected and ordained" by God to be saved. (John 6:63, Romans 10:13-15.)........cut...................

​Amen. Even Charles H Spurgeon who was a Calvinist said the same think in his book "All of Grace".  

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Sprugeon was a schizophrenic calvinist - he taught that man absolutely had a free will AS WELL as Calvin's 5 fantasy points.

I wish people would note that when they call him a calvinist - it is not as straightforward as that.

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I've had a read through both John Y's posts and I still don't think I understand quite what is being said. John has this entreaty in his first post:

"What I learned as a young man is that while information, knowledge, physical actions, etc can help me better understand Christ redemptive work and to grow in faith and wisdom, there are no steps, no process, no 'things' I can do to pre-approve myself mentally or verbally."

And then later he says:

"To be clear the drawing of the Spirit is not a mystical thing. The Spirit draws all men by the hearing of His spoken word through the preaching of saved people and their biblical witnessing materials (His word transmitted in print and comprehended as speech in the mind of the reader)."

The best way I can tie those two statements together is to surmise that John is proposing that while we can identify some tangible components of the process of a person's salvation, we don't need to labour on the details, i.e. does the person know this, have they been taught that. Rather, the Holy Spirit can take care of all that and what doesn't happen before salvation will happen during sanctification. Is that a fair summary, John?

And I see Heartstrings also affirms that there are no 'steps' to be taken to be saved:

"I reiterate that there are no 'steps' to take to get saved. Jesus took all the necessary steps and all we are required to do is to believe on him, trusting Him to save us from our sin. Some people cannot physically 'call' on Him or 'confess' him audibly. But it's the heart God is interested in and one cannot, nor will not 'call' upon God in faith until the heart has already truly repented/turned to Jesus."

On the one hand I agree in that salvation isn't like a magic spell: say this, then do that, then touch your toes, etc. etc. However, I also think that, while there are some groups who are either pretty woolly on what's needed for salvation, or deny any essential difference between being saved and being sanctified, Baptists haven't traditionally been among those, and it's Baptists who have it right.

From what little I know of other groups, they seem to downplay or deny any set of criteria for being 'born again' in the following ways:

1. Pentecostals and Charismatics emphasise the leading of the Holy Spirit to the extent that it's *all* about the Holy Spirit and everything else is minor. The Holy Spirit draws a person and if that person desires a loving 'personal relationship' with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit then does everything else: makes them believe in the right stuff, brings them to a state of repentence etc. Because the Holy Spirit is doing all of that, nobody needs to worry about what that stuff actually is.

2. Roman Catholics roll salvation and sanctification into one. They say that God will have mercy on anyone who is honestly seeking and that some will end up a good way towards full sanctification on earth--they'll be fully paid up members of the Catholic Church etc.--while others will end up doing a good portion of their journey to sanctification in purgatory. Because there is no 'moment' when a person goes from being unsaved to saved, there are no prerequisites other than that a person is an 'honest seeker'.

3. Calvinists say that although God has means and those means involve people preaching and other people listening and responding, it's all predetermined to play out successfully, so no-one need worry too much about getting the details right.

Contrary to all the above, and laying aside questions about babies and the unborn and the mentally ill for now, I've always understood that for a person to be saved there are a set of pretty definite 'facts' that a person needs to understand in order to comprehend their state as a sinner before God, to be able to believe in the person and work of Jesus Christ, and to go on to respond to the call to repent. That sounds like a 'mental step' to me, so when John says there are no mental steps needed I get a bit nervous!

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I've had a read through both John Y's posts and I still don't think I understand quite what is being said. John has this entreaty in his first post:

"What I learned as a young man is that while information, knowledge, physical actions, etc can help me better understand Christ redemptive work and to grow in faith and wisdom, there are no steps, no process, no 'things' I can do to pre-approve myself mentally or verbally."

And then later he says:

"To be clear the drawing of the Spirit is not a mystical thing. The Spirit draws all men by the hearing of His spoken word through the preaching of saved people and their biblical witnessing materials (His word transmitted in print and comprehended as speech in the mind of the reader)."

The best way I can tie those two statements together is to surmise that John is proposing that while we can identify some tangible components of the process of a person's salvation, we don't need to labour on the details, i.e. does the person know this, have they been taught that. Rather, the Holy Spirit can take care of all that and what doesn't happen before salvation will happen during sanctification. Is that a fair summary, John?

And I see Heartstrings also affirms that there are no 'steps' to be taken to be saved:

"I reiterate that there are no 'steps' to take to get saved. Jesus took all the necessary steps and all we are required to do is to believe on him, trusting Him to save us from our sin. Some people cannot physically 'call' on Him or 'confess' him audibly. But it's the heart God is interested in and one cannot, nor will not 'call' upon God in faith until the heart has already truly repented/turned to Jesus."

On the one hand I agree in that salvation isn't like a magic spell: say this, then do that, then touch your toes, etc. etc. However, I also think that, while there are some groups who are either pretty woolly on what's needed for salvation, or deny any essential difference between being saved and being sanctified, Baptists haven't traditionally been among those, and it's Baptists who have it right.

From what little I know of other groups, they seem to downplay or deny any set of criteria for being 'born again' in the following ways:

1. Pentecostals and Charismatics emphasise the leading of the Holy Spirit to the extent that it's *all* about the Holy Spirit and everything else is minor. The Holy Spirit draws a person and if that person desires a loving 'personal relationship' with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit then does everything else: makes them believe in the right stuff, brings them to a state of repentence etc. Because the Holy Spirit is doing all of that, nobody needs to worry about what that stuff actually is.

2. Roman Catholics roll salvation and sanctification into one. They say that God will have mercy on anyone who is honestly seeking and that some will end up a good way towards full sanctification on earth--they'll be fully paid up members of the Catholic Church etc.--while others will end up doing a good portion of their journey to sanctification in purgatory. Because there is no 'moment' when a person goes from being unsaved to saved, there are no prerequisites other than that a person is an 'honest seeker'.

3. Calvinists say that although God has means and those means involve people preaching and other people listening and responding, it's all predetermined to play out successfully, so no-one need worry too much about getting the details right.

Contrary to all the above, and laying aside questions about babies and the unborn and the mentally ill for now, I've always understood that for a person to be saved there are a set of pretty definite 'facts' that a person needs to understand in order to comprehend their state as a sinner before God, to be able to believe in the person and work of Jesus Christ, and to go on to respond to the call to repent. That sounds like a 'mental step' to me, so when John says there are no mental steps needed I get a bit nervous!

​Yes, like I said, Jesus took all the steps. But there is no step one, step two, check one check two, check three that you have to "do". After the details of the Gospel are presented, all that is required is to believe in your heart; meaning to turn to Jesus from sin and self. One "step"; only believe. That's not "easy believism" either. It's "hard believism". Why? Because people love darkness and Self and the World too much.

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What I mean is that if I am activly looking to, believing, and following Christ alone from the heart then I do not need to wonder if I have been saved. Its not the mental understanding of the the saving work that saves but rather the active submition of the believer's will thrugh the Spirit.

Edited by John Young

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But there is no step one, step two, check one check two, check three that you have to "do". After the details of the Gospel are presented, all that is required is to believe in your heart; meaning to turn to Jesus from sin and self. One "step"; only believe. That's not "easy believism" either. It's "hard believism". Why? Because people love darkness and Self and the World too much.

​Ok, but John has been talking in his OP not just about physical steps but mental 'steps':

"Many say some things are needed before true faith can 'become available'. Some say a various level of repentance or sorriness for your past sins is needed before salvation. Another relies on various levels of hearers knowledge or the presenters accurately voicing the truth; they have to understand the events correctly as presented in the correct bible (1611 KJAV Pure Cambridge Edition only for English speakers or it won't work)."

 I've underlined the bits I'm talking about. Now I've heard some pretty extreme examples of what I think John's talking about. I've heard folk say that if your belief in Jesus' crucification doesn't include a correct belief in the exact shape of the cross--maybe you think it's a square cross instead of a rectangular one--then your belief is actually in the "wrong Jesus". Or if someone shares the Gospel with you and you accidentally mishear when they say that Jesus rose on the third day and you think they have said four days, then if you believe you are believing in the "wrong Jesus", not the actual one who died and rose on the third day, and if you turn to that Jesus for your salvation, you'll actually be putting your faith in no-one.

On the other hand, though, I do think that that there is some knowledge needed before one can believe in the Gospel and turn to Jesus for salvation. For example, I don't think you can be saved if you somehow end up believing that Jesus was a giraffe the Romans kept in a zoo near Calvary. Now I guess someone could argue that the Holy Spirit wouldn't let that happen to a seeker, so all we need to do is present the Gospel honestly and rely on the Holy Spirit to bring the person to a correct understanding, sufficient for them to respond, should they choose, to the offer of salvation. Is that one of the points you're making, John?

 

 

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What I mean is that if I am activly looking to, believing, and following Christ alone from the heart then I do not need to wonder if I have been saved. Its not the mental understanding of the the saving work that saves but rather the active submition of the believer's will thrugh the Spirit.

Active submiton to Christ happens first and is the point of salvation. Understanding of what things happend or led you to that point can come later and can vary in order or meaningfulness to you. What remains for every true Christian is they looked, believed, and followed Christ.

Edited by John Young

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​They didn't 'ordain' themselves like Heartstrings thinks, but they were already known by God to be one's who 'would believe', (because of the preaching of the gospel), ahead of our time, in God's time, (which is eternal time, you know, from the end God sees the beginning and knows what is going to happen even before it does.) Thus they were ordained even before the world was. All because God is all knowing.

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What I mean is that if I am activly looking to, believing, and following Christ alone from the heart then I do not need to wonder if I have been saved. Its not the mental understanding of the the saving work that saves but rather the active submition of the believer's will thrugh the Spirit.

Active submiton to Christ happens first and is the point of salvation. Understanding of what things happend or led you to that point can come later and can vary in order or meaningfulness to you. What remains for every true Christian is they looked, believed, and followed Christ.

​Ok, but you talk about looking to, believing, submitting to, following. In those phrases is implied some measure cognition/understanding of what it is one is submitting to. You say "understanding of what things happened" can come later, so do you mean one can believe in and follow Christ while having no knowledge whatsoever of who Christ is and what happened at Calvary? And that knowledge of that stuff comes later on?

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​They didn't 'ordain' themselves like Heartstrings thinks, but they were already known by God to be one's who 'would believe', (because of the preaching of the gospel), ahead of our time, in God's time, (which is eternal time, you know, from the end God sees the beginning and knows what is going to happen even before it does.) Thus they were ordained even before the world was. All because God is all knowing.

​God not only knows the beginning and the end: He is THERE. The Bible says that God "inhabiteth eternity" and Jesus, being God the Son, stated : "before Abraham was, I AM". He fills "time" and space". He also "knew" that Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao would kill countless millions of people, knew exactly how many they would kill as well as countless other good and bad things people would do in the future. Just because God KNOWS what will happen does not mean He "ordained" it. The Bible also says that God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance". How do you explain that? You can't. In Deuteronomy 30 verse 8, God, knowing what their choice would be, gave the Israelites a choice.....The choice God WANTED them to make was to "CHOOSE life". That was His WILL. If it had NOT been His will. then He was a liar.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Back to the word "ordained". I have shown you how that, in early English language, namely Chaucer's use of the word "ordained", it was possible to become "ordained" to something of one's own accord. Because nobody "ordains" a man to "concupiscence" but himself.

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​God not only knows the beginning and the end: He is THERE. The Bible says that God "inhabiteth eternity" and Jesus, being God the Son, stated : "before Abraham was, I AM". He fills "time" and space". He also "knew" that Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao would kill countless millions of people, knew exactly how many they would kill as well as countless other good and bad things people would do in the future. Just because God KNOWS what will happen does not mean He "ordained" it. The Bible also says that God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance". How do you explain that? You can't. In Deuteronomy 30 verse 8, God, knowing what their choice would be, gave the Israelites a choice.....The choice God WANTED them to make was to "CHOOSE life". That was His WILL. If it had NOT been His will. then He was a liar.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Back to the word "ordained". I have shown you how that, in early English language, namely Chaucer's use of the word "ordained", it was possible to become "ordained" to something of one's own accord. Because nobody "ordains" a man to "concupiscence" but himself.

​Ok. So you know what God knew before time even existed. I don't see a problem here. I didn't say God predetermined someone to be saved, He just knows who will.

Where is that an issue? He does know the beginning from the ending, and the ending from the beginning, and what IS happening right now. What did I say wrong?

Or is this an 'oh no, a Calvinist is amongst us' type of issue?

I am not a Calvinist. I don't think I would be considered one by anyone. My posts on OB have testified to that already.

Anyone is 'ordained' to eternal life because of their own choice in 'believing with all their heart' that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

God knew when you were gonna be saved. God knew when I was gonna be saved. There is not an ounce of untruth in that line of thinking.

If you have an issue with that, you have an issue with God being all-knowing.

 

As for the Hitler statements and such - they were 'ordained' to occur because God knew those men would choose to do what they did.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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​Ok, but you talk about looking to, believing, submitting to, following. In those phrases is implied some measure cognition/understanding of what it is one is submitting to. You say "understanding of what things happened" can come later, so do you mean one can believe in and follow Christ while having no knowledge whatsoever of who Christ is and what happened at Calvary? And that knowledge of that stuff comes later on?

It is like when Christ appeared to our two brothers on the road after his resurrection. They did not know he was Christ but in their heart they knew. Or when Peter was yet speaking to the first gentiles they received the Holy Ghost before he finished explaining.

 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?  - Luke 24:32

 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.  - Acts 10:44

Edited by John Young

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​Ok. So you know what God knew before time even existed. I don't see a problem here. I didn't say God predetermined someone to be saved, He just knows who will.

Where is that an issue? He does know the beginning from the ending, and the ending from the beginning, and what IS happening right now. What did I say wrong?

Or is this an 'oh no, a Calvinist is amongst us' type of issue?

I am not a Calvinist. I don't think I would be considered one by anyone. My posts on OB have testified to that already.

Anyone is 'ordained' to eternal life because of their own choice in 'believing with all their heart' that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

God knew when you were gonna be saved. God knew when I was gonna be saved. There is not an ounce of untruth in that line of thinking.

If you have an issue with that, you have an issue with God being all-knowing.

 

As for the Hitler statements and such - they were 'ordained' to occur because God knew those men would choose to do what they did.

​I have no problem with God being omniscient. I'm glad he is. He knows what we will do in the future; but He does not ordain what we choose to do. Hitler ordained himself to the path he took  and the things he did. God frees everyone to do as they please, but He does not free us from the consequences.  A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps. Proverbs 16:9

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​I have no problem with God being omniscient. I'm glad he is. He knows what we will do in the future; but He does not ordain what we choose to do. Hitler ordained himself to the path he took  and the things he did. God frees everyone to do as they please, but He does not free us from the consequences.  A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps. Proverbs 16:9

​And I agree with you, and I don't see where I have said differently.

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Sorry if I misunderstood.

​Let me try to explain that thought.

If we experience a 'life event', let's say we get pregnant, my wife that is, and the child grows up to be a salesman, who sells Bibles, good ones that is, and lives out his life accomplishing that very thing, then his life ends...

From what I said above in the post in question, my sons whole life, [from the perspective of the end of his days], went just the way God knew it would go, thereby being 'ordained', not OF God, but observed to be in 'order' as God saw it go - and God sees the end result at the end of my sons life.

In other words, nothing happens in time that God does not already know will happen, making it ordained, not God ordained, but ordained by circumstances of our choice.

That sounds much more confusing than I mean it. :{D

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​Let me try to explain that thought.

If we experience a 'life event', let's say we get pregnant, my wife that is, and the child grows up to be a salesman, who sells Bibles, good ones that is, and lives out his life accomplishing that very thing, then his life ends...

From what I said above in the post in question, my sons whole life, [from the perspective of the end of his days], went just the way God knew it would go, thereby being 'ordained', not OF God, but observed to be in 'order' as God saw it go - and God sees the end result at the end of my sons life.

In other words, nothing happens in time that God does not already know will happen, making it ordained, not God ordained, but ordained by circumstances of our choice.

That sounds much more confusing than I mean it. :{D

​How do we fit this together with the passages telling us that God orders the steps of a man, God directs kings, nothing happens without God causing it or allowing it?

There is also the matter of prayer. We see in Scripture where God declares a matter as fact, then repentant prayer is offered and God responds by changing things in accord with the prayer and His will.

How does God make all things work together for good if He's not actively involved in bringing such about?

We read in Scripture that even the results of casting lots is controlled by the Lord.

Is God active in our lives, nations and history or did He just toss us out here on earth so He could sit back and watch what He knew would happen anyway?

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​How do we fit this together with the passages telling us that God orders the steps of a man, God directs kings, nothing happens without God causing it or allowing it?

There is also the matter of prayer. We see in Scripture where God declares a matter as fact, then repentant prayer is offered and God responds by changing things in accord with the prayer and His will.

How does God make all things work together for good if He's not actively involved in bringing such about?

We read in Scripture that even the results of casting lots is controlled by the Lord.

Is God active in our lives, nations and history or did He just toss us out here on earth so He could sit back and watch what He knew would happen anyway?

Proverbs 16:9

 

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Here's an example:

The Babylonians chose to attack the Southern Kingdom of Judah and carry them into captivity. God allowed it to happen because of Judah's sin, but He later punished the Babylonians for doing it. The Jews chose to sin, God allowed punishment for it. The Babylonians chose to mistreat God's people, God allowed it, and then punished them for it. Man chooses his way, God is in control of the outcome.

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I find it much less to confusing to both the person I am attempting to explain God's  sovereignty (couldn't even spell it without checking it) to and myself if I don't try to explain it in detail.  God is sovereign, He is King, He rules over all and thats it.  I cannot explain God's power anymore than I can explain free will.  The more one tries the murkier it gets to an unbeliever. . . . . and me. 

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The Bible says that God will give us wisdom and understanding if we ask Him for it. The Bible will give us knowledge if we search for it. It explains God's "sovereignty" too. But what is to explain about free will? God gives us the freedom to choose our own way or His way. He did it from the beginning when He told Adam not to eat of "the tree of knowledge of good and evil". Adam made his choice and men have been doing it ever since.

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      I’m very concerned for this guy. From what I’ve seen on his posts years ago on Facebook, he was raised Catholic. So I assume that he might have a skewed idea of Christianity, if in fact he even considers himself one (I don’t know). 
      I would love for someone to talk to him. He lives across the country from me and I know that if someone I know locally, adds him/messages him, he would know that I was the one who got them to speak with him. There’s some reasons that I feel that would cause an issue. 
      Is there anyone that doesn’t live in Texas, that could maybe talk to him? If so, please message me on here and I will give you his Facebook info. Knowing his personality, I’m pretty sure he’d add anyone. 
    • By MrsJ88
      Hi there. I'm brand new to this wonderful page. I would like to ask for God's will to be done in this custody case. My daughter is in that delicate stage, wanting to be saved but still a little bit unclear about what it truly means. Her father is atheist, and filling her with the nonsense that he believes. He is also in the process of trying to break up my marriage and the family we have. He wants to take my daughter and have her full time. This would be detrimental to her. Both mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Please, if you would pray that he see God, and that he realizes how desperately he needs God, and the salvation he offers. Also, please let me know what I can pray for, for you. Thank you! God Bless!
      Melissa.
    • By Roselove
      Came across this, was a little confused. Can you guys explain this to me? Thanks! 
      https://billmounce.com/monday-with-mounce/are-you-saved-or-are-you-being-saved”-1-cor-15-2 
      http://www.simplybible.com/f066.htm
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