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"'Oops, I missed a step' Salvation."


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​They didn't 'ordain' themselves like Heartstrings thinks, but they were already known by God to be one's who 'would believe', (because of the preaching of the gospel), ahead of our time, in God's time, (which is eternal time, you know, from the end God sees the beginning and knows what is going to happen even before it does.) Thus they were ordained even before the world was. All because God is all knowing.

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What I mean is that if I am activly looking to, believing, and following Christ alone from the heart then I do not need to wonder if I have been saved. Its not the mental understanding of the the saving work that saves but rather the active submition of the believer's will thrugh the Spirit.

Active submiton to Christ happens first and is the point of salvation. Understanding of what things happend or led you to that point can come later and can vary in order or meaningfulness to you. What remains for every true Christian is they looked, believed, and followed Christ.

​Ok, but you talk about looking to, believing, submitting to, following. In those phrases is implied some measure cognition/understanding of what it is one is submitting to. You say "understanding of what things happened" can come later, so do you mean one can believe in and follow Christ while having no knowledge whatsoever of who Christ is and what happened at Calvary? And that knowledge of that stuff comes later on?

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​They didn't 'ordain' themselves like Heartstrings thinks, but they were already known by God to be one's who 'would believe', (because of the preaching of the gospel), ahead of our time, in God's time, (which is eternal time, you know, from the end God sees the beginning and knows what is going to happen even before it does.) Thus they were ordained even before the world was. All because God is all knowing.

​God not only knows the beginning and the end: He is THERE. The Bible says that God "inhabiteth eternity" and Jesus, being God the Son, stated : "before Abraham was, I AM". He fills "time" and space". He also "knew" that Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao would kill countless millions of people, knew exactly how many they would kill as well as countless other good and bad things people would do in the future. Just because God KNOWS what will happen does not mean He "ordained" it. The Bible also says that God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance". How do you explain that? You can't. In Deuteronomy 30 verse 8, God, knowing what their choice would be, gave the Israelites a choice.....The choice God WANTED them to make was to "CHOOSE life". That was His WILL. If it had NOT been His will. then He was a liar.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Back to the word "ordained". I have shown you how that, in early English language, namely Chaucer's use of the word "ordained", it was possible to become "ordained" to something of one's own accord. Because nobody "ordains" a man to "concupiscence" but himself.

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​God not only knows the beginning and the end: He is THERE. The Bible says that God "inhabiteth eternity" and Jesus, being God the Son, stated : "before Abraham was, I AM". He fills "time" and space". He also "knew" that Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao would kill countless millions of people, knew exactly how many they would kill as well as countless other good and bad things people would do in the future. Just because God KNOWS what will happen does not mean He "ordained" it. The Bible also says that God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance". How do you explain that? You can't. In Deuteronomy 30 verse 8, God, knowing what their choice would be, gave the Israelites a choice.....The choice God WANTED them to make was to "CHOOSE life". That was His WILL. If it had NOT been His will. then He was a liar.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Back to the word "ordained". I have shown you how that, in early English language, namely Chaucer's use of the word "ordained", it was possible to become "ordained" to something of one's own accord. Because nobody "ordains" a man to "concupiscence" but himself.

​Ok. So you know what God knew before time even existed. I don't see a problem here. I didn't say God predetermined someone to be saved, He just knows who will.

Where is that an issue? He does know the beginning from the ending, and the ending from the beginning, and what IS happening right now. What did I say wrong?

Or is this an 'oh no, a Calvinist is amongst us' type of issue?

I am not a Calvinist. I don't think I would be considered one by anyone. My posts on OB have testified to that already.

Anyone is 'ordained' to eternal life because of their own choice in 'believing with all their heart' that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

God knew when you were gonna be saved. God knew when I was gonna be saved. There is not an ounce of untruth in that line of thinking.

If you have an issue with that, you have an issue with God being all-knowing.

 

As for the Hitler statements and such - they were 'ordained' to occur because God knew those men would choose to do what they did.

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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​Ok, but you talk about looking to, believing, submitting to, following. In those phrases is implied some measure cognition/understanding of what it is one is submitting to. You say "understanding of what things happened" can come later, so do you mean one can believe in and follow Christ while having no knowledge whatsoever of who Christ is and what happened at Calvary? And that knowledge of that stuff comes later on?

It is like when Christ appeared to our two brothers on the road after his resurrection. They did not know he was Christ but in their heart they knew. Or when Peter was yet speaking to the first gentiles they received the Holy Ghost before he finished explaining.

 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?  - Luke 24:32

 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.  - Acts 10:44

Edited by John Young
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​Ok. So you know what God knew before time even existed. I don't see a problem here. I didn't say God predetermined someone to be saved, He just knows who will.

Where is that an issue? He does know the beginning from the ending, and the ending from the beginning, and what IS happening right now. What did I say wrong?

Or is this an 'oh no, a Calvinist is amongst us' type of issue?

I am not a Calvinist. I don't think I would be considered one by anyone. My posts on OB have testified to that already.

Anyone is 'ordained' to eternal life because of their own choice in 'believing with all their heart' that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

God knew when you were gonna be saved. God knew when I was gonna be saved. There is not an ounce of untruth in that line of thinking.

If you have an issue with that, you have an issue with God being all-knowing.

 

As for the Hitler statements and such - they were 'ordained' to occur because God knew those men would choose to do what they did.

​I have no problem with God being omniscient. I'm glad he is. He knows what we will do in the future; but He does not ordain what we choose to do. Hitler ordained himself to the path he took  and the things he did. God frees everyone to do as they please, but He does not free us from the consequences.  A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps. Proverbs 16:9

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​I have no problem with God being omniscient. I'm glad he is. He knows what we will do in the future; but He does not ordain what we choose to do. Hitler ordained himself to the path he took  and the things he did. God frees everyone to do as they please, but He does not free us from the consequences.  A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps. Proverbs 16:9

​And I agree with you, and I don't see where I have said differently.

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Sorry if I misunderstood.

​Let me try to explain that thought.

If we experience a 'life event', let's say we get pregnant, my wife that is, and the child grows up to be a salesman, who sells Bibles, good ones that is, and lives out his life accomplishing that very thing, then his life ends...

From what I said above in the post in question, my sons whole life, [from the perspective of the end of his days], went just the way God knew it would go, thereby being 'ordained', not OF God, but observed to be in 'order' as God saw it go - and God sees the end result at the end of my sons life.

In other words, nothing happens in time that God does not already know will happen, making it ordained, not God ordained, but ordained by circumstances of our choice.

That sounds much more confusing than I mean it. :{D

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​Let me try to explain that thought.

If we experience a 'life event', let's say we get pregnant, my wife that is, and the child grows up to be a salesman, who sells Bibles, good ones that is, and lives out his life accomplishing that very thing, then his life ends...

From what I said above in the post in question, my sons whole life, [from the perspective of the end of his days], went just the way God knew it would go, thereby being 'ordained', not OF God, but observed to be in 'order' as God saw it go - and God sees the end result at the end of my sons life.

In other words, nothing happens in time that God does not already know will happen, making it ordained, not God ordained, but ordained by circumstances of our choice.

That sounds much more confusing than I mean it. :{D

​How do we fit this together with the passages telling us that God orders the steps of a man, God directs kings, nothing happens without God causing it or allowing it?

There is also the matter of prayer. We see in Scripture where God declares a matter as fact, then repentant prayer is offered and God responds by changing things in accord with the prayer and His will.

How does God make all things work together for good if He's not actively involved in bringing such about?

We read in Scripture that even the results of casting lots is controlled by the Lord.

Is God active in our lives, nations and history or did He just toss us out here on earth so He could sit back and watch what He knew would happen anyway?

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​How do we fit this together with the passages telling us that God orders the steps of a man, God directs kings, nothing happens without God causing it or allowing it?

There is also the matter of prayer. We see in Scripture where God declares a matter as fact, then repentant prayer is offered and God responds by changing things in accord with the prayer and His will.

How does God make all things work together for good if He's not actively involved in bringing such about?

We read in Scripture that even the results of casting lots is controlled by the Lord.

Is God active in our lives, nations and history or did He just toss us out here on earth so He could sit back and watch what He knew would happen anyway?

Proverbs 16:9

 

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Here's an example:

The Babylonians chose to attack the Southern Kingdom of Judah and carry them into captivity. God allowed it to happen because of Judah's sin, but He later punished the Babylonians for doing it. The Jews chose to sin, God allowed punishment for it. The Babylonians chose to mistreat God's people, God allowed it, and then punished them for it. Man chooses his way, God is in control of the outcome.

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I find it much less to confusing to both the person I am attempting to explain God's  sovereignty (couldn't even spell it without checking it) to and myself if I don't try to explain it in detail.  God is sovereign, He is King, He rules over all and thats it.  I cannot explain God's power anymore than I can explain free will.  The more one tries the murkier it gets to an unbeliever. . . . . and me. 

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The Bible says that God will give us wisdom and understanding if we ask Him for it. The Bible will give us knowledge if we search for it. It explains God's "sovereignty" too. But what is to explain about free will? God gives us the freedom to choose our own way or His way. He did it from the beginning when He told Adam not to eat of "the tree of knowledge of good and evil". Adam made his choice and men have been doing it ever since.

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