Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

Genevanpreacher

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, wretched said:

Once again friend, your interpretation of I Tim 4 is way off. This passage is clearly speaking of the religious lost, most specifically the RCC which began nearly 300 years after this writing. They say Lord Lord a whole lot but are dead Spiritually. The Lord never knew them.

How does 1 Timothy 4:1-2 identifies the RCC specifically?  

1 Timothy 4: 1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

I see this applying only to these apostate movements of the "Spirit" which is not of the Lord Jesus Christ.  The hypocrisy can be seen by how they will acknowledge that the Holy Spirit is in them and yet they will still seek to receive Him "again" as if He was not.  That is evidence of their conscience seared with a hot iron.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

These quotes are getting way too long.

 

Mike, much of your logic in this is not evidentiary but is based more on speculation against the evidence in Scripture. This practice places more importance on speculation to support your theories than the evidence (whether worded specifically to the subject at hand or not) that is found in Scripture contradicting your theories. Your business but it is wrong my friend.

 

5 minutes ago, Golgotha said:

How does 1 Timothy 4:1-2 identifies the RCC specifically?  

1 Timothy 4: 1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

I see this applying only to these apostate movements of the "Spirit" which is not of the Lord Jesus Christ.  The hypocrisy can be seen by how they will acknowledge that the Holy Spirit is in them and yet they will still seek to receive Him "again" as if He was not.  That is evidence of their conscience seared with a hot iron.

I just discovered the source of your misinterpretations my friend. You don't study context in the Scriptures and tend to stand alone passages with your own private interpretations of them. Keep reading I Tim 4 and tell me who else beside the RCC that this could be prophesizing about?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wretched said:

I just discovered the source of your misinterpretations my friend. You don't study context in the Scriptures and tend to stand alone passages with your own private interpretations of them. Keep reading I Tim 4 and tell me who else beside the RCC that this could be prophesizing about?

umm.... careful there, buddy.  Usually when people assign a standard of judgment like that, I find that it usually goes both ways.  There is nothing about the RCC being described in it.  I have given you how I see the characteristics being  applicable to these movements of the "Spirit", but I find your application as wanting.

I am sure you have studied the context of the Scriptures, but I happen to believe you are reading the RCC into it.  I suggest setting that earlier perception aside and then read the context of the scripture again with His help instead.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 prophesied that there will be believers that had faith, but will depart from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.  Now I take that to mean those rudiments where people open themselves up to spirits & receiving them to commune with them.  You find that in mediums and other forms of the occult.

That is never to be the rudiment in regards to the promised Holy Spirit of the New Covenant.

The hypocrisy is believing that they have the Holy Spirit in them, but yet seek to receive Him again after a sign.

These feel good emotionalism in these movements of the "Spirit" is definitive of seducing spirits.

There is nothing that refers the doctrine of devils to religious rudiments.

There is nothing identifying seductive spirits as being exclusive in the religion of the RCC.

There are Charismatic Catholic churches & you can find these movements of the "Spirit" in those churches, as it is a false prophet gathering grapes of thorns & figs of thistles as being ecumenical in nature, but not really exposing it as the RCC exclusively in 1 Timothy 4:1-2.

Is the RCC the mother of harlots?  Yes.  They give out all kinds of invitations on how to approach God the Father by like the Holy Spirit, Mary, the departed patron saints, the confessional through priests, the Mass, & etc. all ignoring the only way given to how we can approach God the Father by and that is by the only way of the Son ( John 14:6,13-14 & John 10:1,7-9 )

But I digress.  Feel free to show the characteristics that is definitive of only the RCC in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 or at the very least, take pause that your standard of judgment may also apply to your application of those verses, friend.  Let's trust Him to minister.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

 

Edited by Golgotha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Golgotha said:

umm.... careful there, buddy.  Usually when people assign a standard of judgment like that, I find that it usually goes both ways.  There is nothing about the RCC being described in it.  I have given you how I see the characteristics being  applicable to these movements of the "Spirit", but I find your application as wanting.

That is never to be the rudiment in regards to the promised Holy Spirit of the New Covenant.

The hypocrisy is believing that they have the Holy Spirit in them, but yet seek to receive Him again after a sign.

These feel good emotionalism in these movements of the "Spirit" is definitive of seducing spirits.

There is nothing that refers the doctrine of devils to religious rudiments.

There is nothing identifying seductive spirits as being exclusive in the religion of the RCC.

There are Charismatic Catholic churches & you can find these movements of the "Spirit" in those churches, as it is a false prophet gathering grapes of thorns & figs of thistles as being ecumenical in nature, but not really exposing it as the RCC exclusively in 1 Timothy 4:1-2.

Is the RCC the mother of harlots?  Yes.  They give out all kinds of invitations on how to approach God the Father by like the Holy Spirit, Mary, the departed patron saints, the confessional through priests, the Mass, & etc. all ignoring the only way given to how we can approach God the Father by and that is by the only way of the Son ( John 14:6,13-14 & John 10:1,7-9 )

But I digress.  Feel free to show the characteristics that is definitive of only the RCC in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 or at the very least, take pause that your standard of judgment may also apply to your application of those verses, friend.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

 

I am always careful friend and recommend you read past verse 2 before you jump to pretext conclusions. If you know of any false religions that abstain from meats like the RCC and forbid to marry like the RCC, please do tell??

What religious groups are you assigning to these declarations of emotional and seducing spirits. Please give some present day examples.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, wretched said:

I am always careful friend and recommend you read past verse 2 before you jump to pretext conclusions. If you know of any false religions that abstain from meats like the RCC and forbid to marry like the RCC, please do tell??

What religious groups are you assigning to these declarations of emotional and seducing spirits. Please give some present day examples.

Jesus prophesied that these false prophets will be coming into th churches as being ecumenical in nature; thus going across the denomenations  ( Matthew 7:13-27 )  The "holy laughter" movement was reported by 700 Club in 1994 as no longer being a Pentecostal/Charismatic event as it was happening in Catholic & Protestant churches across the USA.  

Other such movements of the "Spirit" shares in the same rudiment of seeking to receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign, thus going around the Son in coming to God by chasing after the Holy Spirit. Those groups are;  Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto Blessings, slain in the spirit, & even the other calling of seeking to receive the Holy Spirit "again" with evidence of tongues which never comes with interpretation & therefore not of the Lord at all.

As for applying 1 Timothy 4:3-4, as definitive of the RCC, that is just some of the other things that can happen in the latter days.  The RCC do not forbid every Catholic from marrying;  just the priests, but if the priests do marry, they can only do communion;  not the Mass, if I recall correctly.

As for the forbidding of meats, that only applies to Fridays, right?  So not exactly a blanket forbidding of eating meats.

I was addressing the foremost prophesy of the latter days in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 where it dealt with having faith, but departing from it to give heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils whereas they wind up with a seared conscience for doing so which will be in hypocrisy as I had pointed out earlier, as these believers in these movements of the "Spirit" will acknowledge that the Holy Spirit is in them, and yet seek to receive Him "again" after a sign as if He is not in them.

I do not believe you can attribute everything in 1 Timothy 4th chapter as being a prophesy definitive of only the RCC.  I see it as definitive of these movements of the "Spirit" because they come into other denomenations. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But verse 3 is part of verses 1 and 2...according to the punctuation marks, they are all one sentence...

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

So ALL of what is described in 1Timothy 4:1-3 will apply to those who depart from the faith...not just verses 1 and 2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Golgotha said:

Hi Brother Jim_Alaska

It seems that I need to paste the scripture to "prove" my point in response to your #1 point.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 

Do you see the little word "if"? The simple meaning of that word is "something that is not certain : something that could either happen or not happen."  It is an example.

Jesus said he NEVER knew them. Notice that He did not say that he knew them once, but does not now know them. If he never knew them they were not saved.

Verbally denying Jesus means what?  Claiming to have never known Jesus.  That is what Peter had done 3 times, even though he had repented later on, but the point is denying and saying I never knew you is the same thing.

Next....

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

In this verse you have "cherry picked" one clause, this is not "rightly dividing Scripture". Please notice who it is that deny Him by their works; it is those 'that are defiled and unbelieving". !~~ NOT SAVED ~~

Works that deny Him means that any work of iniquity can deny Him.  This can apply to believers that engage in iniquity that denies Him.  This can even apply to believers that err from the truth & had their faith overthrown thus they no longer believe in Him.  Example of this has been given in scripture.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

This verse does not show that God never knew them, it simply shows that they fell into error. It does not say that they no longer believed in Him, that is an assumption on your part.

The Apostle Paul speaks very plainly concerning this kind of error and what is to be done about it, which does not fall into the category of God never having known them.  1Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. According to this verse, in context, Paul exercised church discipline by putting them outside of the protective position of church membership.

Church discipline is exercised expressly for the purpose of assuring that the spirit remains saved:  1Cor. 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 
 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 
 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Another example is how the lie of the evolution theory has caused many to err & have overthrown the faith of some, causing them to stop believing in the Bible and the Lord Jesus Christ, but and a nevertheless kind of but has been given.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

So believers in iniquity & former believers are still called to depart from iniquity by going to Jesus for help to see the truth in exposing the lies that have led them away from the truth.  These wayward saints still have His seal. Proof.

"Former believers" is a contradiction of terms. They were either saved or they were not. If they were once believers and now are not (former believers) then they must have lost their salvation, which is impossible.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

See verse 13 above?  This is why Jesus is judging His House first at the pre trib rapture event, separating the sheep that follows His voice from the sheep that followed the stranger's voice.  

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

The ones that go astray that climbed up another way to follow a stranger's voice done by "going to" the Holy Spirit in prayer & even in honor to address in worship to receive "again" after a sign of tongues without interpretation.

Once again you err by not rightly dividing the Scripture. John 10:1 is not speaking about sheep that went astray, it is speaking about the shepherd. See my red text above.

But Jesus acknowledge the other sheep not of the fold that followed His voice that He must bring them because they are still His.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jesus just testified of the sheep that follows Him & now... the other sheep not of the fold that followed His voice as they will be made to hear His voice & be of the one fold & one shepherd.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

This is where the vessels unto honor are received while the the reprobates, the vessels unto dishonor are left behind; as in excommunicated from the Marriage Supper, to be received later on after the great tribulation.

Look how it applies to Matthew 7:21-23 in context from verse 13 to verse 27.

Please forgive me for being blunt, but your assumption here is total nonsense. Nowhere does the Scripture say in regard to the rapture that, "This is where the vessels unto honor are received while the the reprobates, the vessels unto dishonor are left behind"
These verses are talking about unsaved, professing, so-called Christians. This is why he says in Verse 23, "I never knew you". They were not saved.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

This is about believers being led astray by false prophets by broadening the way in how they can come to God the Father other than by the only way of the Son which is by giving out another invitation by coming to the Holy Spirit, seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign.  This is where you get all of these movements where these fantastic claims by these professing believers will be denied by Him.

Wrong again, if they are believers then they are already saved. First you say they are believers then you say they are professing believers. You can't have it both ways, either they are saved or they are not.

Matthew 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He denied them because they were workers of inqiuity & to be denied attendance to the Marriage Supper has occurred, but they are still His.

Once again I would direct you to the red text in your Scripture reference. If He never knew them then they were never His. Your arguments are progressively illogical and coming very close to the idea that you can lose your salvation. These are the progressively illogical arguments that are used by those who believe that you can lose your salvation.

Look at how important it is to hear His word on John 14:6 & John 10:1 on why the Son is the only One we are to go to in coming to God the Father in anything, and then see how Jesus concluded why those professing believers were left behind.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

So every believer will b judged by what they build on that foundation & if they defile it, their physical body will be destroyed as in they will perish after being left behind, but still be saved, because they are His.  1 Corinthians 3:10-17 & Hebrews 12:1-29

In response to #2.. it is the Father that draws all men unto the Son;  John 6:44 The Father reveals His Son to sinners so they can believe ( Matthew 11:25-27 ) The Father gives sinners to the Son to save ( John 6:37-40 ) Our believing in the Son is a work of God Himself ( John 3:18-21 ) for God the Father knows whom is seeking Him from that that prefer their evil deeds to be reproved of them.

2 Timothy 2:18-21 has been shown earlier how believers can err from the truth & have their faith overthrown.

This was shown to be incorrect above, when you first stated it.

Another forum member suggested that you find a good Independent Baptist Church and attend it. I also would encourage you in this direction so that you might come to know the "faith once delivered unto the saints".

May God richly bless you as you endeavor to "come to the knowledge of the truth".

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

A person cannot depart from faith unless they had that faith.  This is a prophesy about believers falling away which is happening in these so called movements of the "Spirit" where they err believing they can receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign like tongues without interpretation, slain in the spirit, holy laughter, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto Blessings.. ect.  The falling away from the faith is happening now and so Jesus coming as the Bridegroom is at the door whereas unless those believers repent, they will be left behind to be received later on when they hear His voice to serve Him as their King of kings for the milleniel reign of Christ for the coming generations on the earth.

Well you have certainly pasted a lot of scripture alright. The problem is not the scripture you have pasted, the real problem is your distorted interpretation of that scripture. The response I gave you previously still stands. Please see my reply to your multitude of scripture interpretations in green text below your text. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Well you have certainly pasted a lot of scripture alright. The problem is not the scripture you have pasted, the real problem is your distorted interpretation of that scripture. The response I gave you previously still stands. Please see my reply to your multitude of scripture interpretations in green text below your text. 

 

Thanks for your replies, but it looks like we are going to agree to disagree.

Do you see the little word "if"? The simple meaning of that word is "something that is not certain : something that could either happen or not happen."  It is an example.

The "if" is followed by something that will definitely happen if the prior did happen. Do note the beginning of that verse where if we suffer, we shall also reign with him;  that is a promise based on if we suffer.  Therefore....

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 

Jesus said he NEVER knew them. Notice that He did not say that he knew them once, but does not now know them. If he never knew them they were not saved.

I understand that this is a common line of thinking among believers, BUT it is incorrect.  Matthew 7:13-27 warns believers about false prophets coming into the churches, leading many astray & the iniquity begins by broadening the way in how we are to approach God the Father by which is to include the Holy Spirit as if He is another "Go To" Person in coming to God the Father by in prayer, fellowship, & worship.  The common denomenator in all of these surprise movements of the "Spirit" across denomenations is when focus is on the Holy Spirit in the worship place.  In every movement, people are falling down as Jesus warned about not heeding His words, then their house is on sand, and great is the fall of it  in Matthew 7:24-27 & that was after HIs judgment of never knowing them.

Proverbs 25: 26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

Matthew 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

So once again, this is about how a believer builds on that foundation & they will be judged for it. The iniquity is going around the Son in coming to God the Father in prayer, fellowship, or worship by including the Holy Spirit so that when seducing spirits come in, believers will believe that was the Holy Spirit & that they can receive Him again after a sign in the flesh which is not of Him.

By honoring the Holy Spirit which the Holy Spirit in them would never lead them to do, they are not honoring the Father because the only way to honor the Father is by honoring the Son.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Take heed of the standard of judgment next on all believers.

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

If the latter portion of that verse did not exist, believers would think it is okay to honor the Holy Spirit, but no.  The latter portion of that verse removes all doubts about how the Father wants us to honor Him in worship, but churches & believers continue to follow the crowd, ignoring the scripture as if Jesus did not really mean that, all the while ignoring the common denomenator in all of these movements of the "Spirit" when the focus is on the "Holy Spirit".

So in all of those movements of the "Spirit" they can say that they prophesied in His name, cast out devils in His name, & do all of these wonderful works in His name, but because they are workers of iniquity, that is why Jesus will deny them because by their works of iniquity, they are denying Him, but even though they believe not any more, He still abides in them even though they are not abiding in Him.  It is because He is faithful, He still abides in them.

You have to contend with 2 Timothy 2:13 if you think a former believer is not saved.

In this verse you have "cherry picked" one clause, this is not "rightly dividing Scripture". Please notice who it is that deny Him by their works; it is those 'that are defiled and unbelieving". !~~ NOT SAVED ~~

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

You are not taking this truth above that I am applying to Titus 1:15-16 nor Matthew 7:21-23.  That verse was following on the heel of those that deny Him, He will deny them in verse 12.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

This verse does not show that God never knew them, it simply shows that they fell into error. It does not say that they no longer believed in Him, that is an assumption on your part.

The Apostle Paul speaks very plainly concerning this kind of error and what is to be done about it, which does not fall into the category of God never having known them.   1Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. According to this verse, in context, Paul exercised church discipline by putting them outside of the protective position of church membership.

Are they unbelieving in that regard?  Do they not depart from the traditions taught of us?  Are they in iniquity?  Are they not considered workers of iniquity?  Then Jesus would say unto them that He never knew them.

Did not Paul expounded on these wicked & unreasonable men that have not faith in regards to this falling away in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter by commanding abiding believers to withdraw from every such brother in the 3rd chapter?  Did Paul say to not treat them as the enemy but admonish them as brothers still in verses 14-15 of that 3rd chapter?  And that was in regards to the falling away & that iniquity which was even at work in the church in his day.  2 Thessalonians 2:3,7,9-12

Church discipline is exercised expressly for the purpose of assuring that the spirit remains saved:  1Cor. 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 
 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 
 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

What do you think the pre trib rapture is for?  It is for judgment on the House of God first;  those not abiding in Him are excommunicated from attending the Marriage Supper for that purpose for which you cite verse 5 above.  What the church fails to do, God will for that purpose.  This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from for not looking to Him for help in departing from iniquity.  2 Timothy 2:19-21

"Former believers" is a contradiction of terms. They were either saved or they were not. If they were once believers and now are not (former believers) then they must have lost their salvation, which is impossible.

Of course it is not possible to lose one's salvation, but Jesus was not whistling dixie when warning believers about being ready.  You think those instructions & warnings to the seven churches in Revelation was for unsaved sinners?  And yet Jesus calls every believer to be ready & look to Him for help to prepare themselves or else in Luke 12:40-49  Even Paul express the possibility of himself being a castaway at the pre trib rapture in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 as the loss of the rewards of crowns are not the only consequence for an unrepentant believer in iniquity.

Once again you err by not rightly dividing the Scripture. John 10:1 is not speaking about sheep that went astray, it is speaking about the shepherd. See my red text above.

Reading on down in context to see His message & why this application given to believers that went astray.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Other sheep which He has, ( past tense ) that was not of that fold that followed His voice.  So that is why I see those that followed the stranger's voice as sheep that went astray.

Jesus said that He MUST bring them;  a double confirmation on this "other sheep I have" that were not of the fold that followed His voice. that they are His and thus they are saved.

They will be made to hear His voice & be of the one fold & one shepherd.  Imagine the King of kings returning with the raptured saints where those left behind are resurrected after the defeat of Satan & the world's armies so that these resurrected post trib saints can serve the King of kings all over the world for the coming generations in the milleniel reign of Christ where they will literally hear His voice.  capisce?

Please forgive me for being blunt, but your assumption here is total nonsense. Nowhere does the Scripture say in regard to the rapture that, "This is where the vessels unto honor are received while the the reprobates, the vessels unto dishonor are left behind"
These verses are talking about unsaved, professing, so-called Christians. This is why he says in Verse 23, "I never knew you". They were not saved.

I can understand my tying in all relevant scripture that is about that truth would seem out of context, but it is not.

Wrong again, if they are believers then they are already saved. First you say they are believers then you say they are professing believers. You can't have it both ways, either they are saved or they are not.

Not all saved professing believers will be found abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes.  Being left behind does not make them any less saved;  they are still in His House, but failing to look to Him for help in departing from iniquity will have them being received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

Once again I would direct you to the red text in your Scripture reference. If He never knew them then they were never His. Your arguments are progressively illogical and coming very close to the idea that you can lose your salvation. These are the progressively illogical arguments that are used by those who believe that you can lose your salvation.

May I ask to set aside logic and note that any iniquity that a saved believer is still in.  will have Him say "I never knew ye, depart from me ye that work iniquity" at the pre trib rapture event, because by that iniquity which in work denies Him, will have those saved but unrepentant believers denied.  Do remember 2 Timothy 2:13

This was shown to be incorrect above, when you first stated it.

Another forum member suggested that you find a good Independent Baptist Church and attend it. I also would encourage you in this direction so that you might come to know the "faith once delivered unto the saints".

May God richly bless you as you endeavor to "come to the knowledge of the truth".

Who is Jesus warning here?  Believers.  Why?  Because they can be cut off to have their portions with unbelievers.

Are they saved?  Are they even His?  Yes.  Because He still calls them His servants when they are getting their stripes.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

I pray that God will bless you in the knowledge of the truth in why God is judging His House first because of the falling away from the faith where His excommunicating those saved believers not abiding in Him to give them unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh which is going to happen after the pre trib rapture for the left behind saints.

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where's our brother who generally makes the "mashed potato" comment? For the most part I've stayed out of this conversation directly with  "Golgatha". But I am seeing something here I do think needs addressed, and I will attempt to be as patient as I can.... Please do forgive me if I come across grumpy as I do not intend to.  

This post is directed towards "Golgatha". I was going to refute your numerous twisting of scripture, BUT several brothers and sisters here have already refuted your claims with scripture, and have patiently tried to show you the multiple errors of your comprehension of the verses you brought forth, how you have taken them out of context and twisted them in an attempt to make a puzzle piece fit where you would have to chop off some if the corners to shove it into place. You CAN attempt to do that, but then you'd have a distorted and incomplete finished puzzle with pieces left over.

There are going to be NO left-behind saints. We are wither SAVED or we are not.  

I think one of the biggest problems I see here is your lack of comprehension in the word "redemption".

#1 Redemption: We know we are counted as redeemed by Christ the moment we accept/believe upon Him alone for salvation.  (Romans 3:24, 1 Cor. 1:30, Eph. 1:7, Col. 1:14). But does the actual purchased possession get redeemed at that very moment OR does the actual purchased possession get sealed for future redemption?

Redemption does not JUST mean the forgiveness of sins, it does not JUST mean Christ paid the price for our sins. Even though redemption DOES mean both.... it means much more!  Please humor me a few moments and let's look at what else scripture has to say about redemption:

Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

2 Tim. 1:12 "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

PLEASE, re-read and carefully study those last 3 verses.  We see we are sealed by the Holy Spirit... for how long? "unto the day of redemption". There is NO scripture that refutes this (no matter how hard it is twisted). There is NOTHING we can do to "unseal" ourselves... that would place our salvation in our own hands, and not in God's very capable hands. Surely, you can see how you cannot "unsave" yourself??? 

Now back to the word redemption... I can think of one simple way to put this... let's say you had a coupon for $1. your favorite food item at a local restaurant. How do you redeem that $1. off coupon? You take it to the restaurant and turn it in for redemption of the purchased possession (the food item in that case).

Our redemption is similar (but not the same). First, we have a "no expiration date" coupon of sorts (as long as we live in human bodies), we are sealed unto the day of redemption! Next, it is not ourselves which hold this coupon of sorts, but the Holy Spirit which has sealed us... we can't grab away, throw away, give away, or sin away the coupon of sorts... the Holy Spirit has sealed that coupon of sorts within us. When does this coupon of sorts actually get turned in FOR redemption? When we either physically die OR when we are raptured.

As we can clearly see in Romans 8:23 " And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."   Here we see Paul describing something many of us can fully relate to... we are groaing within ourselves with the longing for the redemption to occur in full! The redemption of the purchases possession happens when we turn this sin-corrupted body in for a glorified incorruptible body given to us by the Lord. In the mean time we are told to wait patiently for it (v.25). We are NEVER told we can lose the SEALING of the Holy Spirit, and thus we can never lose the PROMISED REDEMPTION! Therefore there will be NO believers who are left behind in the rapture. 

Maranatha!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, MountainChristian said:

I can know Jesus in my mind and not know him in my heart. 

But if you even believe in His name, hence in your mind, it is written that you are saved.  John 1:12-13

Not every believer will be taught by His disciples to follow Him.  It is like having that foundation laid, but going on with their normal lives building wood, stubble, and hay in defiling the temple of God which their bodies are.

Jews believed in Him, but Jesus informed them what makes them His disciples.

John 8: 30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Jesus even warned His disciples what happens when disciples stop abiding in Him & His words.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

That branch had to be cut off before it can wither.  It was part of the vine, and then it was not, because the believer stopped abiding in Him.  This casting out event is when God shall judge His House at the pre trib rapture.

Jesus is warning every believer & every believer following Him as His disciple;

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 

Jesus is not talking about unbelievers if they are going to be cut off to have their portions with unbelievers.

And do note that the consequence involving those cut off are still called by Him His servants as they are still in His employ to be receiving their stripes from Him.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Paul spoke of that day when that fire shall come which will be after the pre trib rapture which will burn up one third of the earth to serve as a catalyst for the new world order & the mark of the beast system to buy & sell for survival.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The temple of the Holy Spirit which is our bodies being destroyed means physical death.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If any believer has any of the work of the flesh on his or her foundation, it is time to go before that throne of grace for help in departing from iniquity in being ready to be received by the Bridegroom. because that is why God is judging one of the seven churches that BELONGS to Him with death for not looking to Him for help in departing from their work of iniquity thus they are to be cast away as in left behind to face the coming fiery judgment & the subsequent great tribulation.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Make no mistake because God is addressing this church as His children.

 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Thus the consequence for not abiding in Him for being in that iniquity still when the Bridegroom comes as they will be left behind to face the fiery judgment on the third of the earth & the subsequent great tribulation.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

So even heresey which can be built on that believer's foundation, will be judged, unless with His help, discerned & repented of.

Galatians 6: 6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. 7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

The first inheritance is being that vessel unto honor in His House;  & having life everlasting while living in the city of God above which will come down from Heaven after Christ's return to reign as the King of kings.  The raptured elect will be like the angels that never die & do not marry while they have been received in our Father's mansion where they will live.  This is why they are vessels of gold & of silver in His House.

The second inheritance is the prodigal son's one.  He had given up his first inheritance for wild living, but even though he is still son, he can never have that first inheritance back.  It is gone like Esau's birthright.

The left behind saints are resurrected AFTER Satan has been defeated & placed in the pit for a thousand years.  It is written that they will reign with the King of kings for the coming  generations yet to be born.  Only those resurrected as coming out of the great tribulation are the ones that the second death has no power over.  But what does that say about the first death?  They could still die which is why they & the coming generations has to go to the new city of Jerusalem to eat from the tree of life for the healing of the nations.  This is why the left behind saints and those after them shall be vessels of wood & of earth and yet they are still in His House.

So what differentiates the two vessels?  One looked to Him to depart from iniquity while the other did not.  Those in iniquity, including former believers that purge themselves by His grace & by His help, can be received by Him as vessels unto honor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:8 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

In tying in with the OP....

We know in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter that Jesus is going to deal with two things;  the falling away which I see as regarding His House at the pre trib rapture & then that son of perdition at the end of the great tribulation at His coming with the prior pre trib raptured saints.

Does any one here really think that when a church excommunicates a brother in iniquity so that the fellowship can feast properly, that God will not do the same for the Marriage Supper?

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you,.....4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

That is what God will do to the unrepentant believers in the church at Thyatira with their spiritual fornication.

Reading on as to why that is to be done for the Marriage Supper.

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Now if the church is supposed to do that to lead one to repentance or experience being given unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, then you know that God is going to do that to an unrepentant believer thinking he or she can fly under God's radar if the church is not aware of their practicing iniquity in their lives.  That also includes former believers led astray by heresy that no longer believe or a church in heresey or in an iniquity still.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

We can trust Jesus as our faithful Creator to keep the souls of those wayward & unrepentant saints left behind to suffer the coming fire & great tribulation on the earth.

I know that you guys are having trouble with 2 Thessalonians 2:10, but when believers fall away from the faith in departing from Him, they become presently ( unbelieving ) as in they believe not the love of the truth.  They are laboring in unbelief by that iniquity by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign of tongues or some other sensational sign in the flesh.  Thus the not being saved but damned reference is in regards to what time frame?  What will happen on the earth as Paul is talking about two events on the earth;  the falling away & then that son of perdition.  The consequence awaits those that have fallen away that they will be left behind & perish and thus damned to never be received as vessels unto honor in His House but as vessels unto dishonor.

This is why God is wiping the tears away from the eyes of those saints coming out of the great tribulation as there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth over the loss of their first inheritance.  They need a miracle from God to get over that loss but they will find that they are still His as the prodigal son will find that he is still son.

Paul gives instructions in dealing with those that have fallen away & any future ones in the 2 Thessalonians 3rd chapter as wicked & unreasonable men that have not faith, that walk not after the traditions taught of us & are disorderly as many Professing believers" are in these movements of the "Spirit".  They are not to be treated as the enemy, but admonish as brothers by withdrawing from them.  And unless they repent, they will be excommunicated when God judges His House at the pre trib rapture.

Like it or not, 2 Thessalonians 2nd & 3rd chapters go together in explaining that verse in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 is about believers that have gone astray that no longer believe the love of the truth and unless they repent, they are at risk of being left behind & thus damned to be received as vessels unto dishonor in His House for that iniquity.

May God cause the increase because there will be some believers that will be like Lot's wife that will love this life more that they would not want to leave.

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

So even the cares of this life can be a snare to believers.  Jesus taught us to pray for His help to escape even that.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So yes... there will be many believers in the latter days that will not be found abiding in Him nor even be willing to go when the Bridegroom comes.  They are still His, but this is why judgment must fall on the House of God first & not just because of the falling away from the faith due to the workings of Satan as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter.

Edited by Golgotha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eternal life is eternal by definition.

That means that it can not be lost, revoked, or removed, by ANYONE. Otherwise it is not ETERNAL life.

Everlasting life is everlasting by definition.

If it does not last for ever FOR ANY REASON  it is not and never was everlasting.

And there are plenty of verses that use these terms in describing the life given at salvation.

Salvation cannot be taken away for any reason by anyone, otherwise God becomes a liar when He calls salvation "eternal life".

I know this is simple, but it is nonetheless true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Golgotha.......

John 5:24King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Golgotha said:

1.  But if you even believe in His name, hence in your mind, it is written that you are saved.  John 1:12-13

2.  This is why God is wiping the tears away from the eyes of those saints coming out of the great tribulation as there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth over the loss of their first inheritance.  They need a miracle from God to get over that loss but they will find that they are still His as the prodigal son will find that he is still son.

Howdy friend,

So, what you are saying in this and similar postings is not that a born again person can unregenerate themselves and become lost again but you are saying that these carnal worldly Christians will suffer through the tribulation with the lost. Correct? But will not be cast into the lake of fire, correct?

Curious, so where are those carnals who have died over the last 2000 years residing right now pending the rapture and tribulation? And what is their role during the 1000 year reign?

Also, please address these holes I noticed at first glance in your last posting:

1.  Receiving Christ is a reaction sparked by heart belief in the Bible Gospel under the Spirit's conviction. This passage in context in no way implies (nor does any other Scripture) that salvation can be obtained through "mental acknowledgement" of Christ and His atoning work. "The devil's believe and tremble"

2. The wiping away of tears occurs after the 1000 year reign of Christ with the very next event on God's calendar being the Great White Throne and then the wiping away of tears.  In context and IMO the tears indicate our sorrow and remorse over all the loved ones who are now in the lake of fire and much more so all the ones we failed to warn. Since I am making an honest effort to understand your point of view, what does this correction do to your theory?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, DaveW said:

Eternal life is eternal by definition.

That means that it can not be lost, revoked, or removed, by ANYONE. Otherwise it is not ETERNAL life.

Everlasting life is everlasting by definition.

If it does not last for ever FOR ANY REASON  it is not and never was everlasting.

And there are plenty of verses that use these terms in describing the life given at salvation.

Salvation cannot be taken away for any reason by anyone, otherwise God becomes a liar when He calls salvation "eternal life".

I know this is simple, but it is nonetheless true.

The first inheritance which is life everlasting is when the elect will be changed to be like the angels that never die & neither marry nor given in marriage.  This will only happen at the re trib rapture;  hence the vessels unto honor.

You need His help to discern why & what the vessels unto dishonor are that are in His House & how can they be in His House still for not departing from iniquity?  What does it mean to be vessels of wood & earth as opposed to vessels of gold & silver?  There has to be two kind of eternal inheritance where the latter comes to its realization when death has finally been defeated.  Read 2 Timothy 2:18-21

There will be saints after the great tribulation that has to go into the city of God to eat from the tree of life.  This will no longer be necessary when death is finally defeated & cast into the lake of fire, but before then, not every believer will have that first inheritance.  Those vessels unto dishonor may not have the kind of everlasting life per the inheritance, BUT after death is defeated, they will, thanks to Jesus Christ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, heartstrings said:

Golgotha.......

John 5:24King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit......4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.....5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,  23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

We are not working for our salvation, because we are saved, but we are called to live that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ by trusting Him as our Good Shepherd in finishing His work & that race for us.

A saved believer living in the flesh will fall into condemnation.  You do not get these warnings from James & Paul unless it is possible for a saved believer to be foolish to sow to the works of the flesh.

So what we build on that foundation which was laid by Jesus Christ does matter as we need to trust Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us run that race in laying aside every weight & sin in doing so by His grace.

But not every believer is applying faith in Jesus Christ to be their Good Shepherd to do that which is why many believers are not abiding in Him as His disciples in being ready to be received by Him when the Bridegroom comes.

While the door to the Marriage Supper is still open, may every believer & former believer that still have His seal, go before that throne of grace for help in discerning good & evil in finding the truth in His words in departing from iniquity because a saved believer can fall under condemnation & be damned in becoming a vessel unto dishonor, but they will eventually inherit eternal life once death has been defeated & cast into the lake of fire whereas the vessels unto honor will inherit everlasting life right away at the pre trib rapture event when God judges His House first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, wretched said:

Howdy friend,

Howdy friend,:)  ~ Golgotha

So, what you are saying in this and similar postings is not that a born again person can unregenerate themselves and become lost again but you are saying that these carnal worldly Christians will suffer through the tribulation with the lost. Correct? But will not be cast into the lake of fire, correct?

Correct;  saved believers that had gone astray either by heresy or carnality or whatever, they still have His seal.  They may not believe for whatever the lie that did it, but He still abides in them & He will finish His work even in those left behind. ~ Golgotha

Curious, so where are those carnals who have died over the last 2000 years residing right now pending the rapture and tribulation? And what is their role during the 1000 year reign?

As I understand this; they are present with the Lord just as those left behind when they die, their souls are under the altar in Heaven still waiting for their resurrection which is as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation. ~ Golgotha

Also, please address these holes I noticed at first glance in your last posting:

1.  Receiving Christ is a reaction sparked by heart belief in the Bible Gospel under the Spirit's conviction. This passage in context in no way implies (nor does any other Scripture) that salvation can be obtained through "mental acknowledgement" of Christ and His atoning work. "The devil's believe and tremble"

The devil's believe & tremble is taken from James 2nd chapter which has often been misused by believers to imply that belief in Jesus Christ is not enough for any one to be saved by in spite of the numerous invitations from Jesus saying otherwise.  I believe Jesus's words over believers' misapplication of James' words. ~ Golgotha

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

James was addressing the church's abuse of the poor by the way the church would verbalize faith in God's Providence to the departing poor to get out of helping the poor thus avoiding meeting their immediate need from the bounty collected after church service.  It was never about faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, but faith in His Providence to provide.  If the church declare that faith, then they should set the example, otherwise, that verbalized faith in His Providence of the church's will not "profit" the poor nor "saved" the poor when the church that claimed having that faith in His Providence.. is dead in the eyes of the poor.

Only Jesus can help believers see the meaning of James words in context that it was not about faith in Jesus Christ but the abuse of applying faith in His Providence to the poor in getting out of helping the poor. ~ Golgotha

2. The wiping away of tears occurs after the 1000 year reign of Christ with the very next event on God's calendar being the Great White Throne and then the wiping away of tears.  In context and IMO the tears indicate our sorrow and remorse over all the loved ones who are now in the lake of fire and much more so all the ones we failed to warn. Since I am making an honest effort to understand your point of view, what does this correction do to your theory?

That is one reference which will happen later, but there is an earlier reference in verse 17 of a wiping away of the tears for those saints coming out of the great tribulation to serve Him for the milleniel reign of Christ. ~ Golgotha

Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Your responses in your quote are still in normal black type;  

My responses are in blue in your quote

Scripture are added in purple in your quote

Thank you for your time & sharing your points of contentions. May God cause the increase for I know I cannot. :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Golgotha said:

The first inheritance which is life everlasting is when the elect will be changed to be like the angels that never die & neither marry nor given in marriage.  This will only happen at the re trib rapture;  hence the vessels unto honor.

You need His help to discern why & what the vessels unto dishonor are that are in His House & how can they be in His House still for not departing from iniquity?  What does it mean to be vessels of wood & earth as opposed to vessels of gold & silver?  There has to be two kind of eternal inheritance where the latter comes to its realization when death has finally been defeated.  Read 2 Timothy 2:18-21

There will be saints after the great tribulation that has to go into the city of God to eat from the tree of life.  This will no longer be necessary when death is finally defeated & cast into the lake of fire, but before then, not every believer will have that first inheritance.  Those vessels unto dishonor may not have the kind of everlasting life per the inheritance, BUT after death is defeated, they will, thanks to Jesus Christ.

Thankyou for your concern about my understanding, but I understand that ILLUSTRATION just fine thanks, and I also understand that you do not build doctrines upon illustrations.

But life everlasting is Salvation.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I don't see your link to "a first inheritance".

But then again, as others have already pointed out, not many of the links you make actually appear to be there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Golgotha said:

So yes... there will be many believers in the latter days that will not be found abiding in Him nor even be willing to go when the Bridegroom comes.  They are still His, but this is why judgment must fall on the House of God first & not just because of the falling away from the faith due to the workings of Satan as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter.

OOPSIE! Where does God's word say judgment will FALL on the House of God?
I believe you've misquoted scripture here.

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God..." (1 Pet. 4:17) BEGIN and FALL are two different words, with entirely different meanings.

I also see NO JUDGMENT  on the "house of God" anywhere in 2 Thes 2
But what I DO see is "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth..." (v.12)

What truth is it they did not believe?  "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (v.10)

Pretty clear that is not speaking of saved believers! In fact, the exact opposite.   Again... no mention of "judgment must fall on the House of God" as you stated, not there in 2 Thes. 2 and not anywhere else either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, DaveW said:

Thankyou for your concern about my understanding, but I understand that ILLUSTRATION just fine thanks, and I also understand that you do not build doctrines upon illustrations.

But life everlasting is Salvation.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I don't see your link to "a first inheritance".

But then again, as others have already pointed out, not many of the links you make actually appear to be there.

Jesus used parables for illustrations IMO.  Course, even then, we need His wisdom to understand the parables.

Anyway... if there are no other kind of inheritance except one, then explain why God has two kinds of vessels in His House?

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

What makes a believer a vessel unto honor in His House to akin to vessels of gold & silver?

Doesn't the vessel of wood & earth hence a vessel unto dishonor be undesirable for a believer to be received as?

How does this call to depart from iniquity relate to a believer purging himself of iniquity to be that vessel unto honor?

Does this not prove that an unrepentant believer in iniquity when the Bridegroom comes is why they will be disqualified from the Marriage Supper & left behind to be received later on as a vessel unto dishonor?

Explain how a vessel unto dishonor that was in iniquity, still be considered as in His House?

If keeping His commandments is how we are His disciples as John 15th chapter testifies, then how can those that believe but break even the least of His commandments & teaches others so be still in His kingdom, but as the least?

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How does this not look like that there are two kinds of inheritances awaiting believers?  

Doesn't this bring new light to the parable about the loyal elder son that did everything that the father told him & as a result, has all that the father has, and the prodigal son that had given up his first inheritance for wild living even though he is still son?

Why else would Jesus warn saved believers to be ready or else be cut off to have their "portions" with "unbelievers" when He sends fire on the earth?  Luke 12:40-49

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Ronda said:

OOPSIE! Where does God's word say judgment will FALL on the House of God?
I believe you've misquoted scripture here.

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God..." (1 Pet. 4:17) BEGIN and FALL are two different words, with entirely different meanings.

I also see NO JUDGMENT  on the "house of God" anywhere in 2 Thes 2
But what I DO see is "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth..." (v.12)

What truth is it they did not believe?  "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (v.10)

Pretty clear that is not speaking of saved believers! In fact, the exact opposite.   Again... no mention of "judgment must fall on the House of God" as you stated, not there in 2 Thes. 2 and not anywhere else either.

Judgment must begin with us first before judgment falls on those outside of His House.  

You do not have Peter talking about judgment coming on those that obey not the gospel in the same breath of the judgment coming to His House unless repercussions were going to come for saved believers not abiding in Him & His words as His disciples.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Some may take this reference as proof as loss of salvation to disprove OSAS, but Peter was talking about being saved from what is coming on the earth.

Can a believer be saved and find himself in a worse sinful state before he was saved.  Yes.  Here's how.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

I was such a dog.  But Jesus saved me still by delivering me from my bondage of corruption as I am trusting Him to keep me abiding in Him as His disciple.  By His grace, I am trusting Him to keep me hoping in Him in keeping me from returning to my vomit to avoid being a castaway.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

In any event, not every dog that returns to his vomit will call on Him to deliver them in time for the Marriage Supper, but they are still His, having His seal, but He will finish His work in them in spite of defiling the temple of God as 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 testifies in verse 15 that they are still saved even after having been excommunicated from attending the Marriage Supper ( Luke 13:24-30 ) to have their portions with unbelievers to face the fire & the coming great tribulation on the earth as the left behind saints are still called His servants as they will be receiving their stripes from Him.  Luke 12:40-49  

The repercussions for not running that race can be seen in Hebrews 12th chapter by the Father's chastening for that short time during which the saints are left behind for.  They will be received, but as vessels unto dishonor.

 

Edited by Golgotha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Golgotha said:

Jesus used parables for illustrations IMO.  Course, even then, we need His wisdom to understand the parables.

Anyway... if there are no other kind of inheritance except one, then explain why God has two kinds of vessels in His House?

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

What makes a believer a vessel unto honor in His House to akin to vessels of gold & silver?

Doesn't the vessel of wood & earth hence a vessel unto dishonor be undesirable for a believer to be received as?

How does this call to depart from iniquity relate to a believer purging himself of iniquity to be that vessel unto honor?

Does this not prove that an unrepentant believer in iniquity when the Bridegroom comes is why they will be disqualified from the Marriage Supper & left behind to be received later on as a vessel unto dishonor?

Explain how a vessel unto dishonor that was in iniquity, still be considered as in His House?

If keeping His commandments is how we are His disciples as John 15th chapter testifies, then how can those that believe but break even the least of His commandments & teaches others so be still in His kingdom, but as the least?

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How does this not look like that there are two kinds of inheritances awaiting believers?  

Doesn't this bring new light to the parable about the loyal elder son that did everything that the father told him & as a result, has all that the father has, and the prodigal son that had given up his first inheritance for wild living even though he is still son?

Why else would Jesus warn saved believers to be ready or else be cut off to have their "portions" with "unbelievers" when He sends fire on the earth?  Luke 12:40-49

Actually "no" to most of this......

 

For instance,  both the vessels to hobour and the vessels to dishonour are IN HIS HOUSE, so you either have trouble reading plain text or are hoping no one else here can read plain text.

Secondly there is no mention in that passage of the marriage supper, nor of the vessels being taken at separate times or in fact just about any other link you state here.

I think a far more important link to make for you would be vs 16 and 22 of the passage you quote........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, DaveW said:

Actually "no" to most of this......

 

13 hours ago, DaveW said:

For instance,  both the vessels to hobour and the vessels to dishonour are IN HIS HOUSE, so you either have trouble reading plain text or are hoping no one else here can read plain text.

The plain text is that verses 19-21 is a call to depart from iniquity and the reference to those two kinds of vessels in His House testify how those purging themselves of the iniquity is how any believer can be received as a vessel unto honor in His House.  So that means the vessels unto dishonor are those that have not departed from iniquity, even though they are still in His House.

The reason God is judging His House first at the pre trib rapture is obvious to me by the practice He has set forth for the church in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter about excommunicating those in unrepentant iniquity.  The metaphors there in regards to eating & fellowship shows why God would do this in excommunicating saved, but unrepentant believers from attending the Marriage Supper.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.....Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.....11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

As God led Paul to instruct the church to do to have that feast of fellowship, so will God do at the pre trib rapture event for the Marriage Supper because not every saved believer will be ready & found abiding in Him as His disciples which is why they are left behind, designating that dishonor while in His House still.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

Article Categories

About Us

Since 2001, Online Baptist has been an Independent Baptist website, and we exclusively use the King James Version of the Bible. We pride ourselves on a community that uplifts the Lord.

Contact Us

You can contact us using the following link. Contact Us or for questions regarding this website please contact @pastormatt or email James Foley at jfoley@sisqtel.net

Android App

Online Baptist has a custom App for all android users. You can download it from the Google Play store or click the following icon.

×
×
  • Create New...