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11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

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1 hour ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I'm not arguing whether your take is right or wrong; in fact, it makes a lot of sense.

I do want to point out that if it is the Holy Spirit, yet one of your points is...

Wasn't the Holy Spirit "sent" by God? Therefore, couldn't God also "take" him back?

Again...not arguing...just pointing out what could poke a hole in that area. 

In context to the verses below, I can see why verse 7 may not be pertaining to the Holy Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Seems like one can read that the iniquity is at work as God will allow it until the source of the iniquity be taken out of the way when His milleniel reign comes?  Since destruction is being announced in verse 8 as a repercussion to that Wicked being revealed, I could see why that evil would be taken out of the way at the end of the great tribulation.

Thus leading into verse 9 in the other thing the Lord will deal with & that is the falling away from the faith at the pre trib rapture event which is prior to His dealing with the Wicked at the end of the great tribulation.

So I can concede that verse 7 may not be about the Holy Spirit as I was influenced by other teachers in reading that popular train of thought into the scripture of verse 7 which in context, may not be the case after all.  It is about the Lord's sovereignty in allowing evil to occur until He deals with it.

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On 6/1/2015 at 0:41 PM, Covenanter said:

Why do we always look for future "end times" fulfilment of Bible prophecy? Paul was writing to the Thessalonians, who knew something we don't. We should of course look to the Scriptures for ourselves & our own situation for principles of Satan's activity, & how the believers responsed. But we should not lift prophecy out of its context, unless there is clear guidance in the prophecy, or in the NT writers application of the prophecy.  

The great lie in the time of Acts was the rejection by the Jewish leaders of Jesus as the Christ. Despite the progress of the Gospel, & the conversion of many thousands of Jews, the rejection of Jesus as Lord & Christ  intensified. That "falling away" intensified despite the faithful witness of the believers in Jerusalem  & Judea. The presence of the Jerusalem Christians delayed the destruction for nearly 40 years - the lifetime of "this generation - but the Olivet prophecy of Jesus would be fulfilled. 

The believers saw the signs Jesus had warned them of, & fled the city before its destruction. Lot was called out of Sodom before the fire fell.

We must apply that situation to ourselves. The "great lie" is still maintained by Jew, Muslim, the world in general &, sadly many who claim to be Christians. Our world is under sentence of destruction, yet with the Gospel of salvation by Christ proclaimed. Let's read on:

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Note simply that "believe a lie" is contrary to "belief of the truth." When the truth is rejected, everything is a lie. The great truth is Gospel truth, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 
Stand therefore ..... Eph. 6:10-20 

 

 

 

But why would God allow a strong delusion to occur for believing that lie if this is pertaining to unbelievers rejecting the gospel when they are spiritually blinded anyway as 1 Corinthians 2:14 testifies?  What strong delusion has befallen every sinner that has rejected the gospel?  I do not see it.

Why did Paul mention the falling away in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ?  How can this not pertains to believers falling away from the faith?  1 Timothy 4:1-2 ?  I can see the strong delusion when believers believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign in all of these movement of the "Spirit".  2 Corinthians 11:3-4  Matthew 12:39 

It is that strong delusion for believing that lie wherein I can see Paul's reproof towards that lie is to remind them when they had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belie of the truth at the hearing of the gospel in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15, but I do give the credit to the Lord for helping me to see that so I reckon I should leave this to His ministry to help you all see that as the Lord permits.

 

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2 Thessalonians 2:6-12 The delusion is sent after He (the Holy Spirit) is taken away with the church because the nonbelievers rejected the love of the truth in the gospel of Jesus. So God causes them to believe the lie of the antichrist. What could he say at a time when all the Christians are gone and their clothing lays on the ground? Aliens took them maybe. After all they will have seen the light of Jesus in the clouds when he called us up see 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

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10 hours ago, Eric Stahl said:

2 Thessalonians 2:6-12 The delusion is sent after He (the Holy Spirit) is taken away with the church because the nonbelievers rejected the love of the truth in the gospel of Jesus. So God causes them to believe the lie of the antichrist. What could he say at a time when all the Christians are gone and their clothing lays on the ground? Aliens took them maybe. After all they will have seen the light of Jesus in the clouds when he called us up see 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

That would explain it if it wasn't for the falling away event that was to occur first before the event of that son of perdition being revealed.

Please explain the event of the falling away mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as needing to occur first.  Why do you believe it has nothing to do with believers departing from faith as prophesied in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 when 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ties that in with 1 Timothy 4:1-2 and why Paul stated the reminder of he faith in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15?

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13 hours ago, wretched said:

Wouldn't your own physical senses and common sense of the world around you indicate that no signs, wonders, visions, miracles, demon possessions or anything else as described from God to show Himself and His power to the world in the  OT, Gospels, Acts and in Revelation ever occurred in your lifetime? Why not...because the Spirit has been poured out over all flesh during this age. Not only to convict the world of sin, righteousness and coming judgement but also IMO has kept satan down or subdued during this age. No demon possession have occurred since; no miracles have occurred since either; no wonders, no signs, no visions, etc have occurred since.

Don't get me wrong I have personally witnessed several of what other people claim as "miracles" and even some "demon possessions", none of which were remotely true in reality but only true in the emotionally unstable minds of those professing these events as miracles or possessions. NOT ONE (nor have I ever heard of a claimed event like this) that was even fractionally close to what the OT, Gospels, Acts and Revelation describe as these and all could easily be proved as coincidence. Nowhere in the OT, Gospels, Acts or even in Revelation will anyone attempt to link God's wonders, signs and miracles to coincidence. He made it indisputable that it was His Hand everytime. Just as He will again during the tribulation period.

You often put forth this view but countless Christians around the world, both past and present, have witnessed otherwise. From individual Christians to missionaries and others there are credible testimonies of the miraculous. These aren't confined to Charismatics or Pentecostals, but include numerous Baptists and others as well.

By your reckoning, what would be the purpose of prayer if there were no chance of God working some form of "miracle" in order to fulfill certain prayer requests?

Our God is the same yesterday, today and forever, His power working in this world is still present.

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Thank you for answering, Mike. I don't agree, but appreciate your answering.  Just wondering... you seem to see the delineation between the church and Israel, so why then would you think Michael would be the one who would be "he who now letteth" since we are not Israel? His role in the past was specifically in regard to Israel...(Dan 10:21 " Michael your prince" -Speaking to Daniel and Israel). So why would he be popping up in 2 Thes. 2? Verse 6 also states "what witholdeth" (referred to as a "he" there as well). And if the "mystery of iniquity" was already  at work then (as Paul was writing 2 Thes. 2, and I believe much more so now), how could this witholder who letteth be witholdng and letting in the age of grace when Michael is Israel's chief (prince) angel? Not the church (grace age believers)?

I would respond further, but "NN" and "Wretched" have pretty much covered the relevant parts of what my response would have been. Anything else I might have said would have led in a direction which would derail the thread topic (even though I think it would be pertinent). So I will just agree to disagree. 

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Has there been a clear defining here of just what the "falling away" is actually referring to?

How does this compare to previous times of falling away?

We know there are, and always have been, many "in the faith" who were not born again Christians. Today, over 70% of Americans claim to be Christian but we know while even many of these who may appear to be "in the faith" they are nothing more than secular or cultural Christians, not actual born again Christians.

When these "fall away", it's not believers falling away, it's the lost who may have been sitting in the same pew with us since childhood.

 

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21 minutes ago, John81 said:

Has there been a clear defining here of just what the "falling away" is actually referring to?

How does this compare to previous times of falling away?

We know there are, and always have been, many "in the faith" who were not born again Christians. Today, over 70% of Americans claim to be Christian but we know while even many of these who may appear to be "in the faith" they are nothing more than secular or cultural Christians, not actual born again Christians.

When these "fall away", it's not believers falling away, it's the lost who may have been sitting in the same pew with us since childhood.

 

Explain these verses, please.

2 Timothy 2: 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Does this or does this not testify that even when a believer stops believing in Him, He still abides in them?

In application:

2 Timothy 2: 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Another application is that many believers stop believing because of the lie of the evolution theory, but yet He still abides even in those former believers which is why the call to depart from iniquity also applies to former believers if they wish to avoid being left behind at the pre trib rapture to be received later after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

So this is why every believer should give pause about why some former saints & some unrepentant saints will be left behind as they are still His because Jesus Christ will finish His work even in them as vessels unto dishonor because they are still in His House testifying to the power of God in salvation for even those that just believe in His name, but did not trust Him as their Good Shepherd to help them to follow Him as His disciples.

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Christ is faithful to His word regardless of the beliefs or actions of His followers or those of the unsaved. Those verses say nothing about a born again believer becoming lost again or of a born again believer falling away to a point where they don't qualify for rapture.

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11 minutes ago, John81 said:

Christ is faithful to His word regardless of the beliefs or actions of His followers or those of the unsaved. Those verses say nothing about a born again believer becoming lost again or of a born again believer falling away to a point where they don't qualify for rapture.

So if a believer denies Him by not only his words, but it can happen by works that deny Him ( see Titus 1:15-16 ) will he not be denied by Him as testified in 2 Timothy 2:12?

Do these verses not warn about believers becoming a castaway??

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Even Paul acknowledge the consequence if even he, himself, did not keep his body under subjection by the grace of God & His help.

Jesus is warning believers below about not abiding in His words in being His disciples.

John 15:1 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Jesus is not bothering to warn nonbelievers to be ready;  this warning are for believers for not being ready, otherwise, they cannot be cut off to have their portions with unbelievers at the pre trib rapture event.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Do note that those cut off, Jesus still calls them His servants as they will be receiving stripes from Him.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

So the warning to the church at Thyatira is a warning to all believers to depart from iniquity to avoid being cast off into the bed of the great tribulation where they will perish by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin in having confidence in Him to finish that race for us.... but not every believer is trusting Jesus as their Good Shepherd to do that.

So I still see perish as being in the land of the living between the falling away event & the revelation of that son of perdition that can happen to wayward believers because those that have fallen away that are still unrepentant & in iniquity will perish when left behind, but to be recovered later on after the great tribulation for He still abides in them as they are still considered His as they are called His servants & why they are receiving stripes from Him.

Why?  The promises of the New Covenant can be seen in prophesy in Psalm 89.

Psalm 89: 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

That is why Jesus said this;

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The consequence for breaking even the least of His commandments & in teaching others so is by being judged by Him to become the least in the kingdom of heaven;  still saved, but it is obvious that stripes are coming for the unrepentant & for those not ready to leave this life when the Bridegroom comes thus left behind.

The race can only be run by faith in the Son of God to finish, but many believers are not ready nor willing to leave when the Bridegroom comes only because they are not trusting Him to be their Good Shepherd in helping them to abide in Him in preparing themselves to be received by Him.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Wayward believers thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit "again" ( the lie ) after a sign ( the strong delusion that can be either tongues without interpretation, or slain in the spirit, or holy laughter, etc. ) is the falling away spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.  Wayward believers will be left behind & perish unless they repent by His help, but they will be received as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation for that reason why they are called vessels unto dishonor as being left behind for not looking to Him for help to depart from iniquity in being ready.

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4 hours ago, Golgotha said:

So if a believer denies Him by not only his words, but it can happen by works that deny Him ( see Titus 1:15-16 ) will he not be denied by Him as testified in 2 Timothy 2:12?

Do these verses not warn about believers becoming a castaway??

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Even Paul acknowledge the consequence if even he, himself, did not keep his body under subjection by the grace of God & His help.

Jesus is warning believers below about not abiding in His words in being His disciples.

John 15:1 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Jesus is not bothering to warn nonbelievers to be ready;  this warning are for believers for not being ready, otherwise, they cannot be cut off to have their portions with unbelievers at the pre trib rapture event.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Do note that those cut off, Jesus still calls them His servants as they will be receiving stripes from Him.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

So the warning to the church at Thyatira is a warning to all believers to depart from iniquity to avoid being cast off into the bed of the great tribulation where they will perish by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin in having confidence in Him to finish that race for us.... but not every believer is trusting Jesus as their Good Shepherd to do that.

So I still see perish as being in the land of the living between the falling away event & the revelation of that son of perdition that can happen to wayward believers because those that have fallen away that are still unrepentant & in iniquity will perish when left behind, but to be recovered later on after the great tribulation for He still abides in them as they are still considered His as they are called His servants & why they are receiving stripes from Him.

Why?  The promises of the New Covenant can be seen in prophesy in Psalm 89.

Psalm 89: 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

That is why Jesus said this;

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The consequence for breaking even the least of His commandments & in teaching others so is by being judged by Him to become the least in the kingdom of heaven;  still saved, but it is obvious that stripes are coming for the unrepentant & for those not ready to leave this life when the Bridegroom comes thus left behind.

The race can only be run by faith in the Son of God to finish, but many believers are not ready nor willing to leave when the Bridegroom comes only because they are not trusting Him to be their Good Shepherd in helping them to abide in Him in preparing themselves to be received by Him.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Wayward believers thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit "again" ( the lie ) after a sign ( the strong delusion that can be either tongues without interpretation, or slain in the spirit, or holy laughter, etc. ) is the falling away spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.  Wayward believers will be left behind & perish unless they repent by His help, but they will be received as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation for that reason why they are called vessels unto dishonor as being left behind for not looking to Him for help to depart from iniquity in being ready.

2 Thessalonians 2L:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Now read the very next verse....

12 That they all might be damned who Once believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

No, It says.....

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Someone who "was" saved has already "believed", so verse 11 and 12 CANNOT apply to any saved people. In case you're still not sure here's another verse; Jesus said": "Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." How could Jesus truthfully tell any lost people "I NEVER knew you" if he ONCE DID?

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58 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

2 Thessalonians 2L:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Now read the very next verse....

12 That they all might be damned who Once believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

No, It says.....

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Someone who "was" saved has already "believed", so verse 11 and 12 CANNOT apply to any saved people. In case you're still not sure here's another verse; Jesus said": "Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." How could Jesus truthfully tell any lost people "I NEVER knew you" if he ONCE DID?

If any believer depart from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2 ), thus they had pleasure in unrighteousness, then they had stopped believing the truth for which they shall be damned to be left behind to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation. 2 Timothy 2:18-21

2 Timothy 2:12 says if we deny Him, He will deny us.  Titus 1:15-16 testify of people professing to know God but in works deny Him.  Now in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus denied them because they were workers of iniquity denying Him.

Any work of iniquity being practiced presently by the saved believer at the time of the pre trib rapture, run the risk of being denied by Him.  That is the same thing as saying I never knew you, because that iniquity is denying Him.

Remember Peter's denial of Jesus Christ?  Peter said that he never knew the man.  Peter repented, but if any former believer has not repented of denying Him nor repented of the work of iniquity that is denying Him, He will deny them.

But it is written that even if they believe not, He is faithful as He still abides for He cannot deny Himself; 2 Timothy 2:13  And that verse was written after those that deny Him, He will deny them in 2 Timothy 2:12.

So denying the professing believer and saying I never knew you is in response to the iniquity which is just cause to disqualify them from the Marriage Supper, but If they repent before the Bridegroom comes, they will not be denied.

 

 

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23 hours ago, wretched said:

         On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 2:15 PM, Ukulelemike said:

I know this was directed toward Ronda but while waiting, I wanted to contend on all your points here Mike

I actually don't THINK, (let me make that clear), that this is the Holy Ghost. Why? Well, one of the primary jobs of the Spirit is to indwell and seal the believer. When the 144,000 are protected, they are sealed in their foreheads by the Lord-I believe this is the same sealing as any believer receives-the Spirit of God. I don't see in scripture where a duty of the Spirit is to keep the Antichrist from taking power, or to keep Satan at bay. Rather, the one time we see Satan being actively fought against, (other than by Jesus), is by Michael.

Nowhere in the NT is the new birth and sealing of the Spirit described as "in their foreheads". Revelation demonstrates the first and only mention of this. This would indicate something quite different than what a church age believer receives. In addition what physical "protection" do you think you possess right now that the Spirit provides you? And where else in Scripture could you recall this "protection"?

Wouldn't your own physical senses and common sense of the world around you indicate that no signs, wonders, visions, miracles, demon possessions or anything else as described from God to show Himself and His power to the world in the  OT, Gospels, Acts and in Revelation ever occurred in your lifetime? Why not...because the Spirit has been poured out over all flesh during this age. Not only to convict the world of sin, righteousness and coming judgement but also IMO has kept satan down or subdued during this age. No demon possession have occurred since; no miracles have occurred since either; no wonders, no signs, no visions, etc have occurred since.

Don't get me wrong I have personally witnessed several of what other people claim as "miracles" and even some "demon possessions", none of which were remotely true in reality but only true in the emotionally unstable minds of those professing these events as miracles or possessions. NOT ONE (nor have I ever heard of a claimed event like this) that was even fractionally close to what the OT, Gospels, Acts and Revelation describe as these and all could easily be proved as coincidence. Nowhere in the OT, Gospels, Acts or even in Revelation will anyone attempt to link God's wonders, signs and miracles to coincidence. He made it indisputable that it was His Hand everytime. Just as He will again during the tribulation period.  I never meant to imply that there mere possessing of the Holy Spirit at this time gives us protection from all harm; however, we are also not in a time of God's judgment on the world, as it will be during the tribulation period. Therefore, since we would not be those being judged, the Spirit would, indeed, (and is said to, if it is the Spirit who seals these believers) keep us from partaking of that judgment being put on the lost.

Another problem I have with it being the Spirit, and maybe it's just me, but the way it speaks of "Until he be taken out of the way", sounds like something done to someone under another's authority. The Spirit is God-He might move out of the way, step aside, or depart, but 'taken out of the way' sounds like something one in authority, (God) would do with someone below Him, (an angel, and archangel, a messenger or servant).

God said in Acts He would pour out His Spirit over all flesh. In the final days He will take Him back out of the way. God describes both the pouring out and taking away in the same tense and tone. God uses the same authority over the Spirit in both cases. The Bible does indeed say God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh, but in the verse in question, it is never said to be the Spirit taken away-it is assumed so by those who believe He will be gone. But the Bible doesn't say it is. And really there is no reason to believe it to be the case-it doesn't say anything about the Spirit being removed from the earth anywhere else in scripture. IN fact, Peter specifically states that in the LAST DAYS God will pour out His Spirit, but here we are being told that in the last days God will take away His Spirit. Let's look in context: "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:17-21) So, what we see occurring on Pentecost was only a partial fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel, because so far, we haven't seen the wonders, the signs, smoke and blood and fire, sun to darkness and moon to blood, as of yet, which are all a part of this fulfillment. We haven't reached that day yet, but the giving of the Spirit will still be taking place, and those who call upon the name of the Lord will still be happening, or at least be available. So again, we see in these very verses that the Spirit will still be pouring out in those last days.

Also, during the tribulation time, no matter what we see as a rapture time, the Bible says time and again that the Lord seeks for those in judgment to repent, but the refuse to repent. Without the pull of the Holy Spirit, I don't see how God could expect anyone to repent, since it is the Spirit that gives us life in Christ. So repent to what? If there is no Spirit to indwell, to seal, to protect and to teach a person, that person has nothing to repent to. We won't be living under the Law, because the law was given only to Israel, it was a covenant with them, so what would people live to, if they repented and had to live perfectly to be saved? I don't believe they will be able to then, any more than one can today.  No, I believe there MUST be the Spirit. I believe it is MIchael who letteth.and will be taken out of the way.  Dan 10:13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."  Dan 10:21 "But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince." Daniel 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."  Rev 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,..."

The tribulation time will be as it was in the OT, God will show Himself to all the world via His Judgments against the world. Revelation is quite clear that all in the world will know it is God's Judgment but will still refuse to accept Him, they will curse HIM instead. Nowhere does it say they will say it is not of God, they will CURSE God. Just as in the OT, the Gospels and Act prior to the Spirit's spread after His pouring out, the world will see God's Hand in all these judgments and they will see God's miraculous Hand in the 144K plus the 2 witnesses who will call down fire and bring the plagues again. Actually, (and I know many disagree), in the OT, no one was saved, strictly-speaking. Those 'righteous dead', who by faith believed on God, (even those who knew nothing of the laws), died and were given opportunity to hear Christ when he died and preached to the spirits in Heaven. By faith they believed and then were saved. But the 144,000 will be saved and sealed, and I believe others will, as well, who have not previously rejected Christ by choice. So if it is not the Spirit that seals then, what DOES? What else can seal a believer but the Spirit? Just because we never see the specific language of the sealing in the forehead doesn't mean it isn't Him sealing them. In fact, when we consider that the followers of Antichrist will be marked in their forehead or right hand, it makes some sense to use the term forehead to act as a parallel, so to speak. One is sealed to Satan in the forehead, the other to Christ. 

In fact, we see the forehead mentioned significantly in scripture-we see the followers of the beast sealed in the right hand or forehead. The 144,000 sealed in the forehead; the whore of Babylon's name was written on her forehead; the Lord tells Ezekiel that he has given Ezekiel a forehead as hard as adamant as flint for the purpose of prophesying. What is the significance of the forehead? Seems like it represents the will-in the case of the 144,000, the sealing doesn't just protect them, it strengthens their will to withstand, perhaps, the lure of the Antichrist. They are hardened in their foreheads like Ezekiel was, to do the work of prophets in a time of great trouble. This is somewhat conjecture, as honestly I have never thought about it.  

 

10 hours ago, Ronda said:

Thank you for answering, Mike. I don't agree, but appreciate your answering.  Just wondering... you seem to see the delineation between the church and Israel, so why then would you think Michael would be the one who would be "he who now letteth" since we are not Israel? His role in the past was specifically in regard to Israel...(Dan 10:21 " Michael your prince" -Speaking to Daniel and Israel). So why would he be popping up in 2 Thes. 2? Verse 6 also states "what witholdeth" (referred to as a "he" there as well). And if the "mystery of iniquity" was already  at work then (as Paul was writing 2 Thes. 2, and I believe much more so now), how could this witholder who letteth be witholdng and letting in the age of grace when Michael is Israel's chief (prince) angel? Not the church (grace age believers)? As for Michael, well, what else would he be doing over the last 2,000 years? No, seriously, I do understand the relationship between Michael and Israel, but it is possible that believers also being God's people, as it were, that Michael could have a similar ministry toward us, as well, not because we are born into Israel, but born into Abraham's covenant, before there was an Israel, the covenant of promise.

I would respond further, but "NN" and "Wretched" have pretty much covered the relevant parts of what my response would have been. Anything else I might have said would have led in a direction which would derail the thread topic (even though I think it would be pertinent). So I will just agree to disagree. And we can do that! The Lord will do as He does-and one day we will all of us see it and say, "Wow! Even I didn't imagine THAT!" because however it works out, it will be more glorious than we can imagine now!

 

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13 hours ago, John81 said:

You often put forth this view but countless Christians around the world, both past and present, have witnessed otherwise. From individual Christians to missionaries and others there are credible testimonies of the miraculous. These aren't confined to Charismatics or Pentecostals, but include numerous Baptists and others as well.

By your reckoning, what would be the purpose of prayer if there were no chance of God working some form of "miracle" in order to fulfill certain prayer requests?

Our God is the same yesterday, today and forever, His power working in this world is still present.

Oh come on brother and consider honestly what you are comparing these "miracles" you read or heard about to: the real miracles in the Word. You know, the plagues, the healings, the raising from the dead, speaking in real tongues, etc, etc, now, compare those to the silly stories you have heard and read as miracles: Surviving a car wreck is hardly a miracle, it happens to the heathen every day, etc, etc, etc.

God required no prayer to display miracles, wonders, signs, etc. but Luke chapter 11 tells us how we can move God to intervene in this age brother. Importunity is the only way IMO.

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8 minutes ago, wretched said:

Oh come on brother and consider honestly what you are comparing these "miracles" you read or heard about to: the real miracles in the Word. You know, the plagues, the healings, the raising from the dead, speaking in real tongues, etc, etc, now, compare those to the silly stories you have heard and read as miracles: Surviving a car wreck is hardly a miracle, it happens to the heathen every day, etc, etc, etc.

God required no prayer to display miracles, wonders, signs, etc. but Luke chapter 11 tells us how we can move God to intervene in this age brother. Importunity is the only way IMO.

I can't speak for what happens in your circle but I know several people who were healed after being prayed over. Real, actual verifiable healing which the doctors attested to.

There was a Baptist missionary in China who, after years of failing to be able to learn even the rudiments of the language, one began preaching to a few people who knew some English when suddenly all the Chinese present began listening intently. Some called for others to join until eventually a crowd heard Chinese coming from this Baptist missionary who was preaching in English.

Multiple sources, involving multiple missionaries and other Christians, have reported on the large number of Muslims overseas who have had very specific dreams which caused them to seek out these Christian to learn of Christ.

None of these things "just happened", God clearly was involved.

There are countless other testimonies of such, and much more, by reliable Christians, not the emotionalist Charismatic fringe.

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10 hours ago, Golgotha said:

So if a believer denies Him by not only his words, but it can happen by works that deny Him ( see Titus 1:15-16 ) will he not be denied by Him as testified in 2 Timothy 2:12?

Do these verses not warn about believers becoming a castaway??

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Even Paul acknowledge the consequence if even he, himself, did not keep his body under subjection by the grace of God & His help.

Jesus is warning believers below about not abiding in His words in being His disciples.

John 15:1 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Jesus is not bothering to warn nonbelievers to be ready;  this warning are for believers for not being ready, otherwise, they cannot be cut off to have their portions with unbelievers at the pre trib rapture event.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Do note that those cut off, Jesus still calls them His servants as they will be receiving stripes from Him.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

So the warning to the church at Thyatira is a warning to all believers to depart from iniquity to avoid being cast off into the bed of the great tribulation where they will perish by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin in having confidence in Him to finish that race for us.... but not every believer is trusting Jesus as their Good Shepherd to do that.

So I still see perish as being in the land of the living between the falling away event & the revelation of that son of perdition that can happen to wayward believers because those that have fallen away that are still unrepentant & in iniquity will perish when left behind, but to be recovered later on after the great tribulation for He still abides in them as they are still considered His as they are called His servants & why they are receiving stripes from Him.

Why?  The promises of the New Covenant can be seen in prophesy in Psalm 89.

Psalm 89: 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

That is why Jesus said this;

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The consequence for breaking even the least of His commandments & in teaching others so is by being judged by Him to become the least in the kingdom of heaven;  still saved, but it is obvious that stripes are coming for the unrepentant & for those not ready to leave this life when the Bridegroom comes thus left behind.

The race can only be run by faith in the Son of God to finish, but many believers are not ready nor willing to leave when the Bridegroom comes only because they are not trusting Him to be their Good Shepherd in helping them to abide in Him in preparing themselves to be received by Him.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Wayward believers thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit "again" ( the lie ) after a sign ( the strong delusion that can be either tongues without interpretation, or slain in the spirit, or holy laughter, etc. ) is the falling away spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.  Wayward believers will be left behind & perish unless they repent by His help, but they will be received as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation for that reason why they are called vessels unto dishonor as being left behind for not looking to Him for help to depart from iniquity in being ready.

Very interesting viewpoint. But IMO many of the passages you quote as wayward believers (born again) are really the religious lost my friend. Those who Jesus said would say: Lord Lord have we not prophesied in thy name, etc. and the Lord tells them that He never knew them.

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24 minutes ago, John81 said:

I can't speak for what happens in your circle but I know several people who were healed after being prayed over. Real, actual verifiable healing which the doctors attested to.

There was a Baptist missionary in China who, after years of failing to be able to learn even the rudiments of the language, one began preaching to a few people who knew some English when suddenly all the Chinese present began listening intently. Some called for others to join until eventually a crowd heard Chinese coming from this Baptist missionary who was preaching in English.

Multiple sources, involving multiple missionaries and other Christians, have reported on the large number of Muslims overseas who have had very specific dreams which caused them to seek out these Christian to learn of Christ.

None of these things "just happened", God clearly was involved.

There are countless other testimonies of such, and much more, by reliable Christians, not the emotionalist Charismatic fringe.

Sorry brother, but they just all happened, like the same worldly accounts of similar things. Now, don't get me wrong on the praying because that will move God. Some christians praying public prayers at the hospital is not importunity by any stretch; so the healings in those cases is coincidental, just like the other lost folks in the same hospital with the same illness who recovered. The muslim story sounds emerging churchy to me. What was the source?

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7 minutes ago, wretched said:

Sorry brother, but they just all happened, like the same worldly accounts of similar things. Now, don't get me wrong on the praying because that will move God. Some christians praying public prayers at the hospital is not importunity by any stretch; so the healings in those cases is coincidental, just like the other lost folks in the same hospital with the same illness who recovered. The muslim story sounds emerging churchy to me. What was the source?

Your view of this makes me sad. The God of Scripture is active in our lives today as He was yesterday and will be tomorrow.

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10 hours ago, wretched said:

Very interesting viewpoint. But IMO many of the passages you quote as wayward believers (born again) are really the religious lost my friend. Those who Jesus said would say: Lord Lord have we not prophesied in thy name, etc. and the Lord tells them that He never knew them.

Again, He never knew them because they were workers of iniquity;  He did say that in the same verse, and it is by being workers of iniquity that their works deny Him, and thus by denying Him by that iniquity, He denies them.  Saying I never knew ye is the same thing as denying ever knowing them.  That does not mean they were never saved.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 prophesied that believers will depart from faith to give heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils.  They had to have faith in order to be prophesied as departing from it, and therefore they are saved, but ceased to "abide" in Him as His disciples and thus not running that race by faith in Jesus Christ.

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2 hours ago, Golgotha said:

Again, He never knew them because they were workers of iniquity;  He did say that in the same verse, and it is by being workers of iniquity that their works deny Him, and thus by denying Him by that iniquity, He denies them.  Saying I never knew ye is the same thing as denying ever knowing them.  That does not mean they were never saved.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 prophesied that believers will depart from faith to give heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils.  They had to have faith in order to be prophesied as departing from it, and therefore they are saved, but ceased to "abide" in Him as His disciples and thus not running that race by faith in Jesus Christ.

1. You are contradicting yourself with these two verses. If He never knew them, then they were never saved.

2. Not so, lost people can be and are drawn by the Holy Spirit toward faith in Christ. If they never exercise the faith to be saved they have "departed from it". 

In another place this departure is called "fallen from grace";  Gal. 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
It does not mean that they were once saved, for we know that no one is justified by the law.

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13 hours ago, John81 said:

Your view of this makes me sad. The God of Scripture is active in our lives today as He was yesterday and will be tomorrow.

On the bright side brother, you and I have experienced the greatest miracle of all ages in the new birth. Nothing in the OT or tribulation can compare to it. We are signed, sealed and delivered.  No group in history can say or ever will be able to say that.

IMO we are the most blessed of all ages because we believed WITHOUT SIGHT. Blessed is he whom having not seen, hath believed!!!

Edited by wretched

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1 hour ago, Jim_Alaska said:

1. You are contradicting yourself with these two verses. If He never knew them, then they were never saved.

2. Not so, lost people can be and are drawn by the Holy Spirit toward faith in Christ. If they never exercise the faith to be saved they have "departed from it". 

In another place this departure is called "fallen from grace";  Gal. 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
It does not mean that they were once saved, for we know that no one is justified by the law.

Hi Brother Jim_Alaska

It seems that I need to paste the scripture to "prove" my point in response to your #1 point.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 

Verbally denying Jesus means what?  Claiming to have never known Jesus.  That is what Peter had done 3 times, even though he had repented later on, but the point is denying and saying I never knew you is the same thing.

Next....

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Works that deny Him means that any work of iniquity can deny Him.  This can apply to believers that engage in iniquity that denies Him.  This can even apply to believers that err from the truth & had their faith overthrown thus they no longer believe in Him.  Example of this has been given in scripture.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Another example is how the lie of the evolution theory has caused many to err & have overthrown the faith of some, causing them to stop believing in the Bible and the Lord Jesus Christ, but and a nevertheless kind of but has been given.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

So believers in iniquity & former believers are still called to depart from iniquity by going to Jesus for help to see the truth in exposing the lies that have led them away from the truth.  These wayward saints still have His seal. Proof.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

See verse 13 above?  This is why Jesus is judging His House first at the pre trib rapture event, separating the sheep that follows His voice from the sheep that followed the stranger's voice.  

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

The ones that go astray that climbed up another way to follow a stranger's voice done by "going to" the Holy Spirit in prayer & even in honor to address in worship to receive "again" after a sign of tongues without interpretation.

But Jesus acknowledge the other sheep not of the fold that followed His voice that He must bring them because they are still His.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jesus just testified of the sheep that follows Him & now... the other sheep not of the fold that followed His voice as they will be made to hear His voice & be of the one fold & one shepherd.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

This is where the vessels unto honor are received while the the reprobates, the vessels unto dishonor are left behind; as in excommunicated from the Marriage Supper, to be received later on after the great tribulation.

Look how it applies to Matthew 7:21-23 in context from verse 13 to verse 27.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

This is about believers being led astray by false prophets by broadening the way in how they can come to God the Father other than by the only way of the Son which is by giving out another invitation by coming to the Holy Spirit, seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign.  This is where you get all of these movements where these fantastic claims by these professing believers will be denied by Him.

Matthew 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He denied them because they were workers of inqiuity & to be denied attendance to the Marriage Supper has occurred, but they are still His.

Look at how important it is to hear His word on John 14:6 & John 10:1 on why the Son is the only One we are to go to in coming to God the Father in anything, and then see how Jesus concluded why those professing believers were left behind.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

So every believer will b judged by what they build on that foundation & if they defile it, their physical body will be destroyed as in they will perish after being left behind, but still be saved, because they are His.  1 Corinthians 3:10-17 & Hebrews 12:1-29

In response to #2.. it is the Father that draws all men unto the Son;  John 6:44 The Father reveals His Son to sinners so they can believe ( Matthew 11:25-27 ) The Father gives sinners to the Son to save ( John 6:37-40 ) Our believing in the Son is a work of God Himself ( John 3:18-21 ) for God the Father knows whom is seeking Him from that that prefer their evil deeds to be reproved of them.

2 Timothy 2:18-21 has been shown earlier how believers can err from the truth & have their faith overthrown.  

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

A person cannot depart from faith unless they had that faith.  This is a prophesy about believers falling away which is happening in these so called movements of the "Spirit" where they err believing they can receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign like tongues without interpretation, slain in the spirit, holy laughter, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto Blessings.. ect.  The falling away from the faith is happening now and so Jesus coming as the Bridegroom is at the door whereas unless those believers repent, they will be left behind to be received later on when they hear His voice to serve Him as their King of kings for the milleniel reign of Christ for the coming generations on the earth.

 

 

 

Edited by Golgotha

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4 hours ago, Golgotha said:

Again, He never knew them because they were workers of iniquity;  He did say that in the same verse, and it is by being workers of iniquity that their works deny Him, and thus by denying Him by that iniquity, He denies them.  Saying I never knew ye is the same thing as denying ever knowing them.  That does not mean they were never saved.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 prophesied that believers will depart from faith to give heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils.  They had to have faith in order to be prophesied as departing from it, and therefore they are saved, but ceased to "abide" in Him as His disciples and thus not running that race by faith in Jesus Christ.

Once again friend, your interpretation of I Tim 4 is way off. This passage is clearly speaking of the religious lost, most specifically the RCC which began nearly 300 years after this writing. They say Lord Lord a whole lot but are dead Spiritually. The Lord never knew them.

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