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Genevanpreacher

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

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Why do we always look for future "end times" fulfilment of Bible prophecy? Paul was writing to the Thessalonians, who knew something we don't. We should of course look to the Scriptures for ourselves & our own situation for principles of Satan's activity, & how the believers responsed. But we should not lift prophecy out of its context, unless there is clear guidance in the prophecy, or in the NT writers application of the prophecy.  

The great lie in the time of Acts was the rejection by the Jewish leaders of Jesus as the Christ. Despite the progress of the Gospel, & the conversion of many thousands of Jews, the rejection of Jesus as Lord & Christ  intensified. That "falling away" intensified despite the faithful witness of the believers in Jerusalem  & Judea. The presence of the Jerusalem Christians delayed the destruction for nearly 40 years - the lifetime of "this generation - but the Olivet prophecy of Jesus would be fulfilled. 

The believers saw the signs Jesus had warned them of, & fled the city before its destruction. Lot was called out of Sodom before the fire fell.

We must apply that situation to ourselves. The "great lie" is still maintained by Jew, Muslim, the world in general &, sadly many who claim to be Christians. Our world is under sentence of destruction, yet with the Gospel of salvation by Christ proclaimed. Let's read on:

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Note simply that "believe a lie" is contrary to "belief of the truth." When the truth is rejected, everything is a lie. The great truth is Gospel truth, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 
Stand therefore ..... Eph. 6:10-20 

 

 

 

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On 6/1/2015, 12:41:37, Covenanter said:

Why do we always look for future "end times" fulfilment of Bible prophecy? Paul was writing to the Thessalonians, who knew something we don't. We should of course look to the Scriptures for ourselves & our own situation for principles of Satan's activity, & how the believers responsed. But we should not lift prophecy out of its context, unless there is clear guidance in the prophecy, or in the NT writers application of the prophecy.  

The great lie in the time of Acts was the rejection by the Jewish leaders of Jesus as the Christ. Despite the progress of the Gospel, & the conversion of many thousands of Jews, the rejection of Jesus as Lord & Christ  intensified. That "falling away" intensified despite the faithful witness of the believers in Jerusalem  & Judea. The presence of the Jerusalem Christians delayed the destruction for nearly 40 years - the lifetime of "this generation - but the Olivet prophecy of Jesus would be fulfilled. 

The believers saw the signs Jesus had warned them of, & fled the city before its destruction. Lot was called out of Sodom before the fire fell.

We must apply that situation to ourselves. The "great lie" is still maintained by Jew, Muslim, the world in general &, sadly many who claim to be Christians. Our world is under sentence of destruction, yet with the Gospel of salvation by Christ proclaimed. Let's read on:

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Note simply that "believe a lie" is contrary to "belief of the truth." When the truth is rejected, everything is a lie. The great truth is Gospel truth, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 
Stand therefore ..... Eph. 6:10-20 

Great point Ian. Sorry you are not here to keep up the good work of encouragement to follow the truth.

Many times you have spoken truth to those who will just not listen.

Thanks.

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On 3/22/2015 at 8:39 PM, Genevanpreacher said:

So...what's the lie?

In 2 Thessalonians 2:10-15, you may be able to discern the lie with His help by seeing what the reminder is in verses 13-15 that reproves that lie in verses 10-12.  

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Since the reminder is about when a believer had received the sanctification of the Holy Spirit & the belief of the truth at the hearing of the gospel, then the lie is thinking a believer can receive the Holy Ghost "again"... as in seeking another baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues of which I point out, never comes with interpretation.

That's the lie:  errant believers thinking they can receive the Holy Ghost "again" after a sign.  What they are experiencing is why many are falling away from the faith in giving heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils.  1 Timothy 4:1-2

The irony is that as errant believers tote this other calling; it can happen again after another sensational sign in the flesh like falling down ( slain in the "Spirit ) or "holy laughter" movement.  So how many times does a believer need to be filled with the Holy Spirit supernaturally?

Only once at the hearing of the gospel which they had believed.  That is the faith we are to keep as there is no other calling:  Ephesians 4:4-6;  no other drink of the One Spirit to get any gifts ( 1 Corinthians 12:13 ) as Jesus keeps His promise for all those that come to Him that they are filled ( John 6:35 ) & thus we shall hunger & thirst no more.  

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

That is the testimony that we are to have;  always filled means saved.  There is no receiving Jesus Christ nor the Holy Spirit again as warned in 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 because of our faith is that He is in us 2 Corinthians 13:5. 

We are to sow to the fruits of the Spirit as opposing sowing to the works of the flesh but if any believer experience what they believe is the Holy Spirit coming over them again when He was already in them when they had first believed;  then that later encounter was not the Holy Spirit.

But this is the falling away from the faith as prophesied as this was happening even back in Paul's days as that iniquity was already at work in the churches back then.  2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15 testifies that believers are to withdraw from every brother that walks disorderly and not after the traditions taught of us, but we are to not treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers, because they are still His even though they are at risk of being left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event unless they repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes. 

So the lie is believing you can receive the Holy Spirit again after a sensational sign in the flesh, even tongues which comes with no interpretation, which God will permit that strong delusion to occur on believers for believing that lie.

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A big enough lie can consist of many interlocking lies.  If one speaks of, say, (as is being discussed) it is to believe the antichrist to be the Messiah, then that one lie would involve many lies: Jesus isn't the Saviour, The Jews are not His people, The bible is false, (and that involves a whoooole lotta lies), etc. How many lies could we place just under the lie of the antichrist's claim as messiah?

So it could be 'a lie', (follow antichrist as messiah), but still be many lies in total. 

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14 minutes ago, Golgotha said:

In 2 Thessalonians 2:10-15, you may be able to discern the lie with His help by seeing what the reminder is in verses 13-15 that reproves that lie in verses 10-12.  

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Since the reminder is about when a believer had received the sanctification of the Holy Spirit & the belief of the truth at the hearing of the gospel, then the lie is thinking a believer can receive the Holy Ghost "again"... as in seeking another baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues of which I point out, never comes with interpretation.

That's the lie:  errant believers thinking they can receive the Holy Ghost "again" after a sign.  What they are experiencing is why many are falling away from the faith in giving heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils.  1 Timothy 4:1-2

The irony is that as errant believers tote this other calling; it can happen again after another sensational sign in the flesh like falling down ( slain in the "Spirit ) or "holy laughter" movement.  So how many times does a believer need to be filled with the Holy Spirit supernaturally?

Only once at the hearing of the gospel which they had believed.  That is the faith we are to keep as there is no other calling:  Ephesians 4:4-6;  no other drink of the One Spirit to get any gifts ( 1 Corinthians 12:13 ) as Jesus keeps His promise for all those that come to Him that they are filled ( John 6:35 ) & thus we shall hunger & thirst no more.  

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

That is the testimony that we are to have;  always filled means saved.  There is no receiving Jesus Christ nor the Holy Spirit again as warned in 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 because of our faith is that He is in us 2 Corinthians 13:5

We are to sow to the fruits of the Spirit as opposing sowing to the works of the flesh but if any believer experience what they believe is the Holy Spirit coming over them again when He was already in them when they had first believed;  then that later encounter was not the Holy Spirit.

But this is the falling away from the faith as prophesied as this was happening even back in Paul's days as that iniquity was already at work in the churches back then.  2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15 testifies that believers are to withdraw from every brother that walks disorderly and not after the traditions taught of us, but we are to not treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers, because they are still His even though they are at risk of being left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event unless they repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes. 

So the lie is believing you can receive the Holy Spirit again after a sensational sign in the flesh, even tongues which comes with no interpretation, which God will permit that strong delusion to occur on believers for believing that lie.

Golgotha~

While I agree with your basic concept in being filled and filled and filled over and over again, and the nutty signs and wonders movement as being false, I don't kow that I agree with it being the answer to the given question. Welcome, by the way.

I believe, according to the immediate context, that the lie would be a complete, continual rejection of Jesus as Christ and Saviour, because the reason FOR being given over to delusion is because, beforehand, they refused to believe the truth, and rather had pleasure in unrighteousness.  It MIGHT go hand-in-hand with Rom 1, concerning those given over to a reprobate mind, because they had rejected God and turned the Creator into a creature, and worshipped the creation rather than the Creator. Their rejection of Him caused the Lord to turn them over to their filthy minds more fully, and here in our scripture, they rejected the truth because they desired pleasure over righteousness, so they are given over to believe a lie, ie, to continue to reject Christ with no choice to ever change, and thus, to accept the antichrist.

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31 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

Golgotha~

While I agree with your basic concept in being filled and filled and filled over and over again, and the nutty signs and wonders movement as being false, I don't kow that I agree with it being the answer to the given question. Welcome, by the way.

I believe, according to the immediate context, that the lie would be a complete, continual rejection of Jesus as Christ and Saviour, because the reason FOR being given over to delusion is because, beforehand, they refused to believe the truth, and rather had pleasure in unrighteousness.  It MIGHT go hand-in-hand with Rom 1, concerning those given over to a reprobate mind, because they had rejected God and turned the Creator into a creature, and worshipped the creation rather than the Creator. Their rejection of Him caused the Lord to turn them over to their filthy minds more fully, and here in our scripture, they rejected the truth because they desired pleasure over righteousness, so they are given over to believe a lie, ie, to continue to reject Christ with no choice to ever change, and thus, to accept the antichrist.

Thanks for the welcome, Ukulelemike.

May I ask what the strong delusion is that God will permit for believing that lie if your application is correct?

This is why I believe the lie is thinking one can receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign & for believing that lie, God will permit that strong delusion to occur on believers.

Seeing how 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter begins with the falling away from the faith and that son of perdition, I believe Paul is addressing that lie as tying in with that iniquity where believers of faith had fallen away from that faith.  

2 Thessalonians 2:7 has Paul addressing that iniquity present even in his day that would cause this falling away from the faith BEFORE that event when that wicked one will be revealed.  Since there is a pre trib rapture, and a coming fiery judgment on the earth, it is that which errant believers should seek to be saved from of being left behind.  

2 Thessalonians 2:10  I can understand how verse 10 would imply that these people were never saved, but Peter goes into detail of what is coming on the earth that even believers should seek to be saved from. 2 Peter 3:9-15  And it is in that context of Paul's words as referring to what will happen on the earth with the falling away from the faith as happening first BEFORE the time when that son of perdition is being revealed as it is that fiery judgment happening after the rapture which believers living in these latter days that should seek the Lord to be saved from.

This fiery judgment will occur after the pre trib rapture;  Revelation 14:6-11 has the 3 angels setting up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth, but by the second angel, that one third of the earth being burned up has happened, with Babylon having fallen.  In Revelation 18th chapter, we see saints have been made to cease from their own works as their works will follow them which is to ashes as the voice of the bride & bridegroom will no longer be heard in Babylon any more, hence the one third of the earth being burned up as Jesus testified to immediate destruction following the pre trib rapture which will serve as a catalyst for the NWO & the mark of the beast system.  This does explain why the USA & the entire western hemisphere is not seen in the great tribulation.

Anyway... I believe Paul would not address the lie unless he has given the reproof to expose that lie which is what 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 is for; to remind believers when they had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the hearing of the gospel.  So that lies is thinking one can receive the Holy Spirit "again" at another time.  I know this addresses saved believers because of the falling away from the faith & the 3rd chapter which testifies as to evil & wicked men for not all men have faith that do not walk after the tradition taught of us & are in fact disorderly as those movements of the "Spirit" are as utter confusion which God is not the author of.

Just sharing what I believe what that lie is in order for that strong delusion to occur that God will permit and in context to not only the second chapter but the third as well as addressing believers falling away from the faith.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Golgotha said:

This is why I believe the lie is thinking one can receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign & for believing that lie, God will permit that strong delusion to occur on believers

I believe that 2 Thessalonians 2:10 makes it clear that those who believe the lie are not already believers...they are/were never saved to begin with.

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

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2 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I believe that 2 Thessalonians 2:10 makes it clear that those who believe the lie are not already believers...they are/were never saved to begin with.

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

In context to the 2nd & 3rd chapter, I would have to disagree.  Like I had posted earlier, I understand that P.O.V. and you may not be able to see my P.O.V., but the perish Paul is talking about is them perishing on the earth for being left behind since it is taking place inbetween the two events mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 on earth.

There is no point talking about believers falling away from the faith and then switching to the consequence of non-believers.  Paul is talking about the consequence for those falling away from the faith and unless they repent, they will perish when left behind.  This iniquity is spiritual fornication & errant believers need His help to repent of this.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

 

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6 minutes ago, Golgotha said:

but the perish Paul is talking about is them perishing on the earth

What about verse 12...which is actually a continuation of verse 11...

11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 

12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Are those who are damned also only damned physically on earth?

 

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19 minutes ago, Golgotha said:

There is no point talking about believers falling away from the faith and then switching to the consequence of non-believers.

 May I ask why you believe that the "falling away" will be believers who fall away? The text only says that there will be a falling away. It doesn't denote that those who fall away are actual believers.

There has already been a "falling away" going on for quite some time. The Catholic church is a prime example. Mormons are a prime example. Jehovah Witnesses are a prime example...and others. Groups with a form of godliness, groups with a form of religion, and groups who center around "god"...yet they fall short of the truth.

However, one day in the future will be THE falling away.

The apostle John makes it clear that if someone walks away from Christ, they weren't really one of his to begin with...

1 John 2:19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

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1 hour ago, Golgotha said:

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

Revelation 2:20 makes it clear that this is talking about a false religion...with a false leader...

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

One of the things that Christ pointed out wrong with this church at Thyatira was that they allowed this false religion and its leader to operate around and amongst them. The same is happening today all around us.

This false religion with its false leader seduced and caused true believers to sin...yet...the Lord still referred to those who were seduced as "my servants". The true servants weren't lost; however, they did sin in committing fornication and eating things sacrificed to idols.

This isn't a pronouncement of judgment against believers who have "fallen away"; it's a pronouncement of judgment against a false religion with a false leader and any of its offshoot religions and followers.

Edited by No Nicolaitans
spelling

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4 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

What about verse 12...which is actually a continuation of verse 11...

11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 

12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Are those who are damned also only damned physically on earth?

 

There are two kinds of vessels in God's House;  the pre trib raptured saints; the vessels unto honor; and the left behind saints & new believers after the pre trib rapture which are the vessels unto dishonor.  2 Timothy 2:19-21

Becoming a vessel unto dishonor is a damnation since they can never be that vessel unto honor in His House once the door to the Marriage Supper is shut.  After the great tribulation, they will be resurrected & then received as vessels unto dishonor.  The prodigal son has given up his first inheritance to wild living, but he is still son, but he can never get that first inheritance back.  The left behind saints will serve the King of kings as spread out all over the world in raising up the next generations coming in the milleniel reign of Christ.  This is why the power of the second death will not be over them as they inherit a terrestriel inheritance;  of wood and of earth where they have to eat from the tree of life that grows in the city to have healing.

The raptured saints live in the city of God that comes down from Heaven as they will give tours of the city in declaring the wonderful works of God there as well as what God has done for them in bringing them Home as the elect;  the chosen;  the disciples that were enabled by Him to follow Him for they trusted in Him as their Good Shepherd to finish His work in them in bringing them to the Marriage Supper in the City of God.

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3 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

 May I ask why you believe that the "falling away" will be believers who fall away? The text only says that there will be a falling away. It doesn't denote that those who fall away are actual believers.

There has already been a "falling away" going on for quite some time. The Catholic church is a prime example. Mormons are a prime example. Jehovah Witnesses are a prime example...and others. Groups with a form of godliness, groups with a form of religion, and groups who center around "god"...yet they fall short of the truth.

However, one day in the future will be THE falling away.

The apostle John makes it clear that if someone walks away from Christ, they weren't really one of his to begin with...

1 John 2:19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

There is the elect;  the vessels unto honor;  and then those vessels unto dishonor that will be left behind.  They were not of us that followed the Shepherd's voice but a stranger's voice;  tongues without interpretation, ( John 10:1-5 ) but Jesus said that there are the other sheep that He has & He must bring them and then they will hear His voice and be of the one fold & one shepherd ( John 10:14-16 )....hint... they will be seeing Him & thus hearing Him in order to be serving Him as the King of kings for the milleniel reign of Christ.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 speaks of those departing away from the faith & so these are believers that had faith, but were led astray by seducing spirits & doctrines of devils.

Titus 1:16 testifies that any work of iniquity denies Him & thus by an inqiuity that denies Him, He will deny us;  2 Timothy 2:12, but even if they believe not any more, having their faith overthrown, 2 Timothy 2:18 by whatever lie that did it, Jesus is faithful & He still abides in them 2 Timothy 2:13 

This is why believers are called to depart from iniquity with His help & by His grace so they can be received as vessels unto honor in His House at the pre trib rapture event.  2 Timothy 2:19-21

Although some have been led astray & snared by the devil in doing his will, God may yet peradventure to recover them before the rapture; 2 Timothy 2:24-26, but if not, He definitely will afterwards because He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him.   John 6:38-40  

So there will be a sheep that followed the stranger's voice as they are NOT of the fold of the disciples that followed His voice by the grace of God & their trust in Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd & all His promises to us.  2 Timothy 4:18

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2 Thes. 2:10-12
10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
12 "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

"a lie" taken literally, would be a (one) singular lie

The one (a) lie would have everything to do with the qualifying statement just previous: "BECAUSE they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved"
What would be the truth they did NOT receive that did NOT save them?

The one singular truth would be belief in Jesus alone for salvation.
No-one (and nothing) else is able to save, but Christ Himself.

The verses include a second qualifier of what this (a) lie would be, by the usage of: "and for THIS CAUSE"

Some would disagree, but I believe that if a person hears the truth that Jesus alone saves while they are yet in the age of grace, and has rejected this truth (as John 3:18 also tells us), they will be condemned.
and further, not have a "second chance" after the tribulation starts.

Being given not just a delusion, but a strong delusion...
That delusion not being given by mankind, nor even from the devil, but from God Himself...
I believe that strong delusion will be far too powerful for them to overcome, nor for them to be able to recognize that Jesus alone saves.
What will they believe in PLACE of the TRUTH? A lie... the lie that someone/something else saves.
The antichrist (whom they will worship) is whom they will believe is their (false) savior.

Most of those who do not agree with this either believe that grace age believers go through the tribulation, and/or that the tribulation has (supposedly) already happened.
However, I have encountered a few pre-trib believers (as I am) who would disagree with me on this as well.

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3 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Revelation 2:20 makes it clear that this is talking about a false religion...with a false leader...

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

One of the things that Christ pointed out wrong with this church at Thyatira was that they allowed this false religion and its leader to operate around and amongst them. The same is happening today all around us.

This false religion with its false leader seduced and caused true believers to sin...yet...the Lord still referred to those who were seduced as "my servants". The true servants weren't lost; however, they did sin in committing fornication and eating things sacrificed to idols.

This isn't a pronouncement of judgment against believers who have "fallen away"; it's a pronouncement of judgment against a false religion with a false leader and any of its offshoot religions and followers.

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

His words are addressing believers in that church & that He will judge each believer in according to our works.

1 Corinthians 3:10-17 warns believers about how they build on that foundation;  if they build wood, stubble, and hay aka any work of the flesh which defiles the temple of God, then they will be destroyed; as in their physical bodies which is the temple of the Holy Spirit; 1 Corinthians 16:19-20 will die but he himself shall be saved, but so as by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15

So 2 Timothy 2:18-21 testifies how a believer can have his faith overthrown to even a point where they do not believe any more, but He still abides in them ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) and He will finish His work even in those left behind ( Philippians 1:6-11 ) for He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him ( John 6:39-40 ) but not every believer will be found ready & abiding in Him or even willing to leave this life when the Bridegroom comes.  This is why we need His help to set our affections on the things above & not of the earth, trusting Him to take us when it is time.  

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1 hour ago, Golgotha said:

There are two kinds of vessels in God's House;  the pre trib raptured saints; the vessels unto honor; and the left behind saints & new believers after the pre trib rapture which are the vessels unto dishonor.

Okay; thanks for your response.

What denomination are you, or what church do you belong to?

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8 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Okay; thanks for your response.

What denomination are you, or what church do you belong to?

Formerly Presbyterian, but have withdrawn membership due to apostasy & the church's regulations which leads to purposeful procrastination in dealing with any matters of faith only because they do not want to make any waves.

Of all denomenations, I think Baptist is close to what I would relate to in truths, but nowadays, I have seen that Baptists doesn't necessarily mean Baptists since some have gotten to be Pentecostal in nature & practice.  So I am not sure what Independent Baptist represents, and so hopefully, I shall find out soon enough.

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9 hours ago, Golgotha said:

There is the elect;  the vessels unto honor;  and then those vessels unto dishonor that will be left behind.  They were not of us that followed the Shepherd's voice but a stranger's voice;  tongues without interpretation, ( John 10:1-5 ) but Jesus said that there are the other sheep that He has & He must bring them and then they will hear His voice and be of the one fold & one shepherd ( John 10:14-16 )....hint... they will be seeing Him & thus hearing Him in order to be serving Him as the King of kings for the milleniel reign of Christ.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 speaks of those departing away from the faith & so these are believers that had faith, but were led astray by seducing spirits & doctrines of devils.

Titus 1:16 testifies that any work of iniquity denies Him & thus by an inqiuity that denies Him, He will deny us;  2 Timothy 2:12, but even if they believe not any more, having their faith overthrown, 2 Timothy 2:18 by whatever lie that did it, Jesus is faithful & He still abides in them 2 Timothy 2:13 

This is why believers are called to depart from iniquity with His help & by His grace so they can be received as vessels unto honor in His House at the pre trib rapture event.  2 Timothy 2:19-21

Although some have been led astray & snared by the devil in doing his will, God may yet peradventure to recover them before the rapture; 2 Timothy 2:24-26, but if not, He definitely will afterwards because He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him.   John 6:38-40  

So there will be a sheep that followed the stranger's voice as they are NOT of the fold of the disciples that followed His voice by the grace of God & their trust in Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd & all His promises to us.  2 Timothy 4:18

I don't see any indication that when Christ calls His people up He will only be calling some while leaving others behind because they weren't good enough.

From your postings you seem to have an over-focus upon the matter of speaking in tongues which you stretch into other areas affecting your view of the meaning of various verses.

In John 10:14-16 Jesus is referring to Gentiles, who are not of the fold of the Jews, which He will bring in and there will be one fold, Jews and Gentiles alike forming that one fold.

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1 hour ago, John81 said:

I don't see any indication that when Christ calls His people up He will only be calling some while leaving others behind because they weren't good enough.

From your postings you seem to have an over-focus upon the matter of speaking in tongues which you stretch into other areas affecting your view of the meaning of various verses.

In John 10:14-16 Jesus is referring to Gentiles, who are not of the fold of the Jews, which He will bring in and there will be one fold, Jews and Gentiles alike forming that one fold.

Hi John81,

Luke 12:40-49 has Jesus warning believers of not being ready since the consequence is being cut off & being left behind with unbelievers.

Luke 14:15-24 shows Jesus excusing believers that love their lives more than leaving it to join His supper.

Luke 14:25-33 shows that the cost of discipleship is to lean on Him for help to be not only ready to leave but willing to leave as well.

Luke 21:33-36 has Jesus warning how the cares of this life can be a snare to believers living in these latter days.

Luke 17:26-33 has Jesus signifying to remember Lot's wife in how the snares of her life made her look back.  Do note how destruction was imminent in relations to the fire being sent on the earth in Luke 12:49 of Luke 12:40-49.

Matthew 7:13-27 is Jesus warning believers of how false prophets will come in & lead many astray in these latter days.  Any believer committing iniquity is denying Him Titus 1:16 & that is why He is denying them in Matthew 7:21-23 as Paul explained in 2 Timothy 2:11-12 BUT Paul points out that those denied are still His even if they have their faith overthrown & do not believe any more because He still abides in them ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) which is why all believers & former believers having His seal are to look to Jesus for help in discerning the truth so He can help them to depart from iniquity.  2 Timothy 2:18-21  & 1 Thessalonians 5:21-24 & 2 Timothy 4:18 & 1 John 3:3,8

I do point out the significance of a supernatural tongue which is not God's gift of tongues of other men's lips to speak unto the people ( 1 Corinthians 14:20-22 ), because it is just vain & profane babblings.  That tongue is not of the Lord because it is associated with that second supernatural encounter which errant believers believe was the Holy Spirit coming over them "again" bringing this tongue which never comes with interpretation.

It is one of the many of the strong delusions spoken of here when believers believe the lie that the Holy Spirit is falling on them again & again & again bringing a sensational signs in the flesh which is why Paul was reminding believers when they had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the hearing of the gospel as it is that tradition they are to hold fast on in preventing from this iniquity causing many to fall away from the faith.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 

Is God not addressing the believers at Thaytira or not?  And yet, He has a few things against those believers.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

That is proof that believers in iniquity will be left behind to face the coming great tribulation.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

God maintains the punishment for the wages of sin is death; Galatians 6:7-9 & Romans 6:23 in the case of the unrepentant believer;  physical death for defiling the temple of God, but the believer will still be saved so as by fire.  1 Corinthians 3:15-17

Here is proof that not all believers in that city was involved in that iniquity as stated below & called to hold fast to the traditions which they have been taught.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

That is a reference to tongues without interpretation as being just vain & profane babblings as that kind of supernatural tongue can be found in documentation involving the demonic possessed.  You cannot abstain from all appearances of evil if God permits the Holy Spirit to use tongues as a prayer language.  

Contrary to modern Bibles that ignore John 16:13 on how the Holy Spirit will only speak & not for Himself, they use the errant translation of Romans 8:26-27 as if the Spirit can utter things to speak for Himself, but the KJV does not support such a falsehood because the groanings are not uttered, hence no sound at all which is why verse 27 exists to show how the unspeakable intercessions of the Spirit are made known & that is by Jesus knowing the mind of the Spirit since He is the One that searches our hearts in Hebrews 4:12-16.

The reason for this being only One Mediator between God & man is because the Son is at the right hand of God the Father in giving our intercessions and the Spirit's unuttered intercessions to the Father so that when the Father says "Yes.." to any of those intercessions, the Son answers the prayer so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answered prayers;  John 14:6,13-14  Hebrews 7:25

So all those saved believers addressing the Holy Spirit in prayer & in worship to come & fall on them are NOT experiencing the Holy Spirit again & again & again after a sign, but the strong delusion for believing that lie.

It is because of spirits in the world and sinners engaging in spirit worship;  like the Native American Indians dancing & chanting for the Great Spirit to come wherein alcohol reminded them of the experience of communing with the Great Spirit, is why some Pentecostal/Charismatic circles are experiencing a drunkenness in the "Spirit" to explain the apparent work of the flesh as being the fruit of the Spirit called "joy" which it is not.  A house divided cannot stand if we are to have all the fruits of the Spirit in us and so joy cannot be drunkenness when joy is joy in order for us to have temperance which is also a fruit of the Spirit which is self control.

This is why Jesus meant what He said that He is the only way to come to God the Father in anything & why all invitations points to Him for life;  and any other way... especially when no invitation has been given to go to the Holy Spirit, is dishonoring the Son as being the only way to come to God the Father, ( John 5:22-23 ) & then that iniquity will lead to wayward believers following a stranger's voice which is what tongues without interpretation is;  John 10:1-5

The Holy Spirit is God, but even the Holy Spirit & scripture is pointing the bride to keep going to the Bridegroom in living that reconciled relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ as we are led by the Spirit & His words to do so.

So that tongue which is not of the Lord can be discerned as the reason why so many are falling away from the faith in these latter days when errant believers want that vain & profane babblings by another way other than to the Son, thus committing spiritual adultery.  Matthew 12:39 & 2 Corinthians 11:1-4

May the Lord help you to see all those references to apostasy is being connected to tongues that never comes with interpretation as it is the way the world speaks & the world hears it;  thus the spirit of error;  1 John 4:1-6 & 1 Corinthians 14:20-22

Edited by Golgotha

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11 hours ago, Ronda said:

2 Thes. 2:10-12
10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
12 "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

"a lie" taken literally, would be a (one) singular lie

The one (a) lie would have everything to do with the qualifying statement just previous: "BECAUSE they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved"
What would be the truth they did NOT receive that did NOT save them?

The one singular truth would be belief in Jesus alone for salvation.
No-one (and nothing) else is able to save, but Christ Himself.

The verses include a second qualifier of what this (a) lie would be, by the usage of: "and for THIS CAUSE"

Some would disagree, but I believe that if a person hears the truth that Jesus alone saves while they are yet in the age of grace, and has rejected this truth (as John 3:18 also tells us), they will be condemned.
and further, not have a "second chance" after the tribulation starts.

Being given not just a delusion, but a strong delusion...
That delusion not being given by mankind, nor even from the devil, but from God Himself...
I believe that strong delusion will be far too powerful for them to overcome, nor for them to be able to recognize that Jesus alone saves.
What will they believe in PLACE of the TRUTH? A lie... the lie that someone/something else saves.
The antichrist (whom they will worship) is whom they will believe is their (false) savior.

Most of those who do not agree with this either believe that grace age believers go through the tribulation, and/or that the tribulation has (supposedly) already happened.
However, I have encountered a few pre-trib believers (as I am) who would disagree with me on this as well.

Rhonda, as a post-trib/pre-wrather (is that the proper way to say it?) I completely agree with you. From the context it seems very clear that the strong delusion and the lie have everything to do with having rejected Christ in the time of grace, and thus, the call, as it were, is ceased to those people and the Lord will not just leave them to their own devices, but will actually CAUSE them to believe the lie of the Deceiver, and willingly follow the Antichrist.

Sadly, this also really is sad for such people as 7th Day Adventists and JW's, because they believe the antichrist is coming, they believe he will deceive many, and think, knowing this, they will know him for who he is and reject him---except they reject the Jesus Christ of the Bible and the salvation He offers, and WILL follow the antichrist because they will have no choice.

I believe Golgotha here is very sincere in what he is writing, but I think he is inadvertently doing some wresting of scripture, taking things from their proper context and making it say what it doesn't say. Clearly Paul is speaking of unbelievers who have rejected Christ and live for pleasure, not believers, not even backslidden believers.

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3 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Rhonda, as a post-trib/pre-wrather (is that the proper way to say it?) I completely agree with you. From the context it seems very clear that the strong delusion and the lie have everything to do with having rejected Christ in the time of grace, and thus, the call, as it were, is ceased to those people and the Lord will not just leave them to their own devices, but will actually CAUSE them to believe the lie of the Deceiver, and willingly follow the Antichrist.

Thank you Mike. :) I am also thankful we are in agreement on this. May I ask you (Mike) whom you believe this part of  2 Thes. 2:7 is referring to? ".... only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."? Do you not believe this is the indwellling presence of the Holy Spirit? And (if so) wouldn't that show that the antichrist ("that Wicked" of verse 8) could not be revealed until after the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is removed along with the grace age believers? Or do you believe the "he who now letteth" is someone/something else? 

Thank you! 

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4 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

I believe Golgotha here is very sincere in what he is writing, but I think he is inadvertently doing some wresting of scripture, taking things from their proper context and making it say what it doesn't say. Clearly Paul is speaking of unbelievers who have rejected Christ and live for pleasure, not believers, not even backslidden believers.

Thank you, Ukulelemike for acknowledging my sincerity.  I am not sure if the Lord will lead me to share how this is seen as addressing believers since it is on Him to cause the increase, but I shall see as He leads me on.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 speaks of the falling away that will happen first.  This is addressing believers;  not non-believers.  1 Timothy 4:1-2 confirms this as a falling away from the faith in giving heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils. 

2 Thessalonians 2:7 has Paul testifying to this iniquity that will cause the falling away from the faith as happening even back in his day.  Who is taken out of the way?  The restraining power of the Holy Spirit when errant believers seek to receive what they believe to be the Holy Spirit again after a sign.  He still dwells within, but the restraining power is taken out of the way for believers to receive the strong delusion for believing the lie.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 speaks of the consequences when the restraining power of the Holy Spirit has been taken out of the way for these strong delusion to occur on wayward believers.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 testimony of after the workings of Satan is tying in with the falling away from the faith in 1 Timothy 4:1-2

2 Thessalonians 2:10 testimony is comparable to 1 John 2:19 as those professing believers went out from among the believers in the faith so that it may be manifest that they were not of that fold that had received the love of the truth.  

This does not necessarily mean that no one can repent of this iniquity, for God may be peradventuring  to deliver some ( 2 Timothy 2:24-26 ), but usually, as the case is in these latter days, they just follow the crowd in following after signs as an adulterous generation.  Matthew 12:39

Did not Jesus warn of false prophets coming in?  Matthew 7:13-17?  Is not Jesus addressing professing believers that claim to do wonderful things in His name in Matthew 7:21-23 ?  Yet many believers say that He did not know them, thus they were never saved, but they forget that any iniquity is a work that denies Him ( Titus 1:15-16 ) even from those that claim to know God. And any professing believer that is a worker of iniquity will be denied by Him ( 2 Timothy 2:12  BUT even if they no longer believe in Him, He still abides, ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) which is why they are saved still, and why the call to depart from iniquity goes out to even those astray;  especially those astray ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 if they wish to be received as a vessel unto honor in His House at the pre trib rapture event. ) 

1 Corinthians 2:14 proves that non-believers are already blinded from seeing the truth.  So applying 2 Thessalonians 2:11 of God permitting a strong delusion to occur for believing the "lie" cannot apply to non-believers.  There is no point to do so.  

It hardly explains the falling away event as spoken of at the beginning of the chapter in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.  So the concept of those that "perish" is referring to wayward believers that will be judged by being left behind from the gathering of the elect.  It is not an eternally perishing, but a perishing in this life which will happen when left behind.

Paul speaks of the rapture & the great tribulation;  so the concept of why some professing believers will be left behind to perish has to be addressed in regards to that falling away event.

This is why Paul is reminding believers when they had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 to reprove and guard against this falling away from the faith.

Paul goes on expounding on those falling away into the next chapter about how we may be delivered from wicked & unreasonable men for they have not faith;  that do not follow after the traditions taught of us & are in fact, disorderly.  That all ties in with the strong delusion occurring on wayward believers for believing the lie as the case is about thinking one can receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign as they do in these movements of the "Spirit" as they are "disorderly".  But as Paul gives the teaching of Christ touching the elect to obey this command to withdraw from every brother that walks disorderly 2 Thessalonians 3:6  ( do note that the verse 6 still calls them brothers ) Paul goes on even more to clarify that we are not to treat them as the enemy, but our withdrawing from them is to admonish them as brothers still.  2 Thessalonians 3:14-15

This is why there are vessels unto honor His His House; the elect; and the vessels unto dishonor in His House that did not depart from iniquity as they will be excommunicated from attending the Marriage Supper, but they will be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.  2 Timothy 2:19-21

So that is why I see perish in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 as addressing believers in life because they had received the truth, but not the love of the truth which is why they went a whoring away from the Bridegroom. The call to repentance is to return to their first love, hence by His help, ceasing from committing spiritual adultery.

Otherwise, they will perish in this life after the pre trib rapture.  Do consider that application since the warning is given for those saints that should happen to be still alive when that son of perdition be revealed which is a warning for saints in this life as the perishing is a warning to this life.  The warning to the church at Thyatira is a warning to this life to escape the death & thus the perishing coming in the great tribulation.  Revelation 2:21-23

I see all the scripture as tying in with how I am reading 2 Thessalonians 2:10 as physically perishing which will be the results for many saints left behind which signifies why they are called & received as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ronda said:

Thank you Mike. :) I am also thankful we are in agreement on this. May I ask you (Mike) whom you believe this part of  2 Thes. 2:7 is referring to? ".... only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."? Do you not believe this is the indwellling presence of the Holy Spirit? And (if so) wouldn't that show that the antichrist ("that Wicked" of verse 8) could not be revealed until after the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is removed along with the grace age believers? Or do you believe the "he who now letteth" is someone/something else? 

Thank you! 

Aww, and I was hoping we'd end in agreement. Okay, here goes.

I actually don't THINK, (let me make that clear), that this is the Holy Ghost. Why? Well, one of the primary jobs of the Spirit is to indwell and seal the believer. When the 144,000 are protected, they are sealed in their foreheads by the Lord-I believe this is the same sealing as any believer receives-the Spirit of God. I don't see in scripture where a duty of the Spirit is to keep the Antichrist from taking power, or to keep Satan at bay. Rather, the one time we see Satan being actively fought against, (other than by Jesus), is by Michael.

Another problem I have with it being the Spirit, and maybe it's just me, but the way it speaks of "Until he be taken out of the way", sounds like something done to someone under another's authority. The Spirit is God-He might move out of the way, step aside, or depart, but 'taken out of the way' sounds like something one in authority, (God) would do with someone below Him, (an angel, and archangel, a messenger or servant).

Also, during the tribulation time, no matter what we see as a rapture time, the Bible says time and again that the Lord seeks for those in judgment to repent, but the refuse to repent. Without the pull of the Holy Spirit, I don't see how God could expect anyone to repent, since it is the Spirit that gives us life in Christ. So repent to what? If there is no Spirit to indwell, to seal, to protect and to teach a person, that person has nothing to repent to. We won't be living under the Law, because the law was given only to Israel, it was a covenant with them, so what would people live to, if they repented and had to live perfectly to be saved? I don't believe they will be able to then, any more than one can today.  No, I believe there MUST be the Spirit. I believe it is MIchael who letteth.and will be taken out of the way.  Dan 10:13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."  Dan 10:21 "But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince." Daniel 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."  Rev 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,..."

Michael seems to be the one who stands against Satan. In fact, every single scripture where Michael is mentioned is related to his standing against Satan, or at least, wicked spiritual powers.

So that is my take.

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38 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

So that is my take.

I'm not arguing whether your take is right or wrong; in fact, it makes a lot of sense.

I do want to point out that if it is the Holy Spirit, yet one of your points is...

42 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

but the way it speaks of "Until he be taken out of the way", sounds like something done to someone under another's authority. The Spirit is God-He might move out of the way, step aside, or depart, but 'taken out of the way' sounds like something one in authority, (God) would do with someone below Him, (an angel, and archangel, a messenger or servant).

Wasn't the Holy Spirit "sent" by God? Therefore, couldn't God also "take" him back?

Again...not arguing...just pointing out what could poke a hole in that area. 

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1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

I know this was directed toward Ronda but while waiting, I wanted to contend on all your points here Mike

I actually don't THINK, (let me make that clear), that this is the Holy Ghost. Why? Well, one of the primary jobs of the Spirit is to indwell and seal the believer. When the 144,000 are protected, they are sealed in their foreheads by the Lord-I believe this is the same sealing as any believer receives-the Spirit of God. I don't see in scripture where a duty of the Spirit is to keep the Antichrist from taking power, or to keep Satan at bay. Rather, the one time we see Satan being actively fought against, (other than by Jesus), is by Michael.

Nowhere in the NT is the new birth and sealing of the Spirit described as "in their foreheads". Revelation demonstrates the first and only mention of this. This would indicate something quite different than what a church age believer receives. In addition what physical "protection" do you think you possess right now that the Spirit provides you? And where else in Scripture could you recall this "protection"?

Wouldn't your own physical senses and common sense of the world around you indicate that no signs, wonders, visions, miracles, demon possessions or anything else as described from God to show Himself and His power to the world in the  OT, Gospels, Acts and in Revelation ever occurred in your lifetime? Why not...because the Spirit has been poured out over all flesh during this age. Not only to convict the world of sin, righteousness and coming judgement but also IMO has kept satan down or subdued during this age. No demon possession have occurred since; no miracles have occurred since either; no wonders, no signs, no visions, etc have occurred since.

Don't get me wrong I have personally witnessed several of what other people claim as "miracles" and even some "demon possessions", none of which were remotely true in reality but only true in the emotionally unstable minds of those professing these events as miracles or possessions. NOT ONE (nor have I ever heard of a claimed event like this) that was even fractionally close to what the OT, Gospels, Acts and Revelation describe as these and all could easily be proved as coincidence. Nowhere in the OT, Gospels, Acts or even in Revelation will anyone attempt to link God's wonders, signs and miracles to coincidence. He made it indisputable that it was His Hand everytime. Just as He will again during the tribulation period.

Another problem I have with it being the Spirit, and maybe it's just me, but the way it speaks of "Until he be taken out of the way", sounds like something done to someone under another's authority. The Spirit is God-He might move out of the way, step aside, or depart, but 'taken out of the way' sounds like something one in authority, (God) would do with someone below Him, (an angel, and archangel, a messenger or servant).

God said in Acts He would pour out His Spirit over all flesh. In the final days He will take Him back out of the way. God describes both the pouring out and taking away in the same tense and tone. God uses the same authority over the Spirit in both cases.

Also, during the tribulation time, no matter what we see as a rapture time, the Bible says time and again that the Lord seeks for those in judgment to repent, but the refuse to repent. Without the pull of the Holy Spirit, I don't see how God could expect anyone to repent, since it is the Spirit that gives us life in Christ. So repent to what? If there is no Spirit to indwell, to seal, to protect and to teach a person, that person has nothing to repent to. We won't be living under the Law, because the law was given only to Israel, it was a covenant with them, so what would people live to, if they repented and had to live perfectly to be saved? I don't believe they will be able to then, any more than one can today.  No, I believe there MUST be the Spirit. I believe it is MIchael who letteth.and will be taken out of the way.  Dan 10:13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."  Dan 10:21 "But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince." Daniel 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."  Rev 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,..."

The tribulation time will be as it was in the OT, God will show Himself to all the world via His Judgments against the world. Revelation is quite clear that all in the world will know it is God's Judgment but will still refuse to accept Him, they will curse HIM instead. Nowhere does it say they will say it is not of God, they will CURSE God. Just as in the OT, the Gospels and Act prior to the Spirit's spread after His pouring out, the world will see God's Hand in all these judgments and they will see God's miraculous Hand in the 144K plus the 2 witnesses who will call down fire and bring the plagues again.

 

 

Edited by wretched

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