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Alan

Revelation chapter 19-22 Study.

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Revelation 19:11-16 Reply to Covenanter March 12, 2015 Questions

Covenanter said:

You state that as if the so-called "rapture" was clearly taught in Scripture. The coming prophesied in 1 The. 4:13-18 is anything but secret. 1 The. 4:16

 

Alan Reply:

All of the world will see the coming of the Lord Jesus as plainly stated in Revelation 1:7 and Revelation 19:11-21 Also, the Lord Jesus said, “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man.” Matthew 25:27. This coming is fulfilled in Revelation 19:11-21 When the Lord Jesus comes as pictured in Revelation 19:11-21 All of the earth shall see him.

When the Lord Jesus comes for the church in the, “Rapture,” He is coming, only to the clouds, as a thief, and only the saints that are raised will see Him. The lost peoples of the world will not see the Lord Jesus when he comes for His church. Therefore, He is coming in ‘Secret.” The exact scriptural terminology is that He coming as a, ‘Thief.’

A thief comes secretly, mostly at night, to take away the jewels, or money, or valuables, from a home, and departs as secretly as possible. That is why it is called a ‘secret,’ coming. In the direct context of the coming for the church in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul then states in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4, “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” OBVIOUSLY, IT CANNOT BE THE COMING THAT THE LORD JESUS MADE REFERENCE TO IN MATTHEW 25:27.

Contrary to your belief that the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, “...is anything but secret...’ is in error. The Lord Jesus is coming for His church as a thief and He will not reveal Himself to the world at that time.

In the eyes of God, the Lord Jesus, the church of the redeemed, are valuable: ‘treasure in a field,’ Matthew 13:44; the field is, ‘the world,’ Matthew 13:38; ‘a pearl of great price,’ Matthew 13:46. Hence, He comes as a thief, to the world, to take home his treasure.

Covenanter said:

You are reading an interpretation into the plain words of Scripture. Our deliverance when our Lord comes is contrasted with sudden destruction. 1 The. 5:3  And surely "... salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us..." IS salvation of the soul (& body.) Full salvation!

Alan Reply:

I think you need to read my first explanation more closely. You are reading into my explanation something that is not there. The scriptures speak for themselves. You are mistaken. The interpretation is based upon a literal belief in the scriptures and not an, ‘figurative,’ or ‘allegorical,’ or, ‘private,’ interpretation of scripture.

There are two types of tribulation in the scriptures. One type of tribulation is the persecution by the world by all saints, in every age, in every country, for following the Lord. The second type tribulation is the ‘tribulation’ of the Jews, by the entire world, in Revelation chapter 6-18.

In Revelation 2:9 and 10, for example, we see the first type of tribulation; persecution.

In Revelation 3:10, in a great promise given not only to the church at Philadelphia, but to all of the churches, the Lord Jesus personally said He would keep them from the, ‘…hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.’ Revelation 3:10. The ‘hour of temptation’ is the Tribulation Period.

The Church Age ended in Revelation 3:22 and the ‘Rapture,’ occurred in Revelation 4:1 

Covenanter said:

Again interpretation by an imposed hermeneutic; John has been given letters to real living churches, all with application to every reader/hearer as we read them. He then has a series of visions beginning with heaven - God in glorious light, & then Christ triumphant in glory. As the book progresses the dreadful nature of the spiritual warfare is seen. We have a vicious enemy manifested in wicked earthly powers, including the Papacy, Islam, atheist Communism, etc.

Alan reply:

You are interpreting actual events, with actual persons, in actual places, in fulfilment of literal prophecies that are being fulfilled with allegorical, figurative or self-made ‘spiritual,’ interpretations that can mean anything to anybody. What you say is, ‘spiritual warfare,’ is literal events on the earth in fulfillment of literal prophecies.

Your definition of, ‘spiritual,’ is just your spiritualizing scripture and has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit at all. Therefore, your interpretation is a private interpretation.

Revelation chapter 6-18, “The Tribulation Period or Time of Jacob’s Trouble.”

Jeremiah chapter 31. Jeremiah 31:7 and 24 specifically states that this prophesy is for the end times. “Alas! for the day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. The fierce anger of the LORD shall return, until he hath done it, and until he hath performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.”

Covenanter said:

When did the end times, or last days or last hour begin? St Pentecost? Acts 2:17   The problem with the concept of a Rev. 1-3 referring to the church & church age, & Rev. 4-18 referring to Israel in a future tribulation, is that the ONLY mention of Israel is in Rev. 7:4 - the sealing of 144,000. A further reference to the destruction of Jerusalem (& the temple) is in Rev. 11, & a reference to "the woman" giving birth to Christ.  

Alan reply:

I did not get in a discussion of ‘when the end times,’ begin. That subject is for a future post at the appropriate time. The Tribulation period is the time of Jacob’s Trouble as Jeremiah prophesied. Also, Covenanter, you are in error, the Lord Jesus, in a plain reference to the nation of Israel in Matthew 24:22 says, “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.”

Covenanter you are also in error concerning that Revelation 7:4 is the only reference to the nation of Israel in the Tribulation period.

  1. Revelation 11:1-13, Besides the Temple we have the Two Witnesses. This is in fulfilment of Zechariah 4:1-14. These two witnesses are Jewish prophets, (most likely Moses and Elijah) and Revelation 11:8 is a direct reference to backslidden Jerusalem.

  2. Revelation 12:1-17 is a clear and unmistakable reference to the nation of Israel. Revelation 12:5 deals with this post so I will quote it, “And she [the nation of Israel] brought forth a man child [the Lord Jesus], who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” ‘...who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:...’ is a direct reference to the Lord Jesus in Revelation 19:15. In Revelation God gives special protection to the woman, Israel, 12:14-17, due to the persecution of the dragon.

During this time the prophecy of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:14, 15, 21 and 22 will be fulfilled. The ‘elect’ that the Lord Jesus refers to in Matthew 24: 22 and 24 is clearly a direct reference to the nation of Israel.

Covenanter said:,

The parallel passage in Luke 21:20-24 makes it clear that Jesus is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, the subject of the prophecy. AD 70.

Alan replied:

Covenanter, you are in error. Luke 21:20-24 is not a companion passage of Matthew 24:22 and 24. The elect in Matthew 24:22 is the elect nation of Israel during the Tribulation Period. Luke 21:20-24 is a direct reference to the destruction of the nation of Israel, and the Temple, in A.D. 70

 

Revelation 19:11-16, “The Battle of Armageddon.”

 “…in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”

The Lord Jesus comes back to the earth to take possession as a conquering King. He takes possession of the earth by war. Joel 3:9-17 is a prophecy of this Great War. This is when the earth and the heavens will ‘shake’ as prophesied by Joel and Haggai.

Joel 3:16, “The LORD shall also roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.”

Haggai 2:6, “For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land.” See Haggai 20-23 and Hebrews 12:6. The events, people involved, nations involved, and time elements concerning the Battle of Armageddon that Haggai prophesied are all literal and not allegorical.

“…and on his head were many crowns; …

During His ministry the Lord Jesus was crowned with a, ‘crown of thorns.’ In Hebrews 2:7 and 9 the Lord Jesus was crowned with, ‘glory and honor,’ and in heaven He will be crowned, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS’

“And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood.”

Isaiah 34:1-8 is a vivid description of this event. Isaiah 34: 4 & 6, “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all the host shall fall down, as a leaf falleth off the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. … The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.”

Covenanter said.

I find it extraordinary that the Lord Jesus - God the Son, the Prince of Peace - should be personally involved in a bloody war. Note Rev. 19:15 & Rev. 1:16 - the sword is from his mouth & surely refers to his Word. That requires a figurative, not literal reading.

Alan replied.

The interpretation that the Lord Jesus Christ will not be involved in a personal bloody war is a disregard for the prophetic prophecy of Isaiah 34 and Revelation 19, as previously quoted. Your belief that it is a figurative and not a literal reading is a disbelief in the written scriptures.

It is painfully obvious that there are numerous denominations and teachers within the false churches and true church throughout the ages that also do not believe in the literal events as clearly spoken by the prophets and their fulfillment in the book of Revelation. Included, but not a total list, are the following: The Roman Catholic started the method of a ‘figurative’ interpretation of Matthew chapter 24 and 25 and the Book of Revelation, this includes: ‘Preterits,’ A-millennials, or Post-Millennial, of any denomination, and any form of, ‘Replacement Theology.’

“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen…”

This is a direct reference to the Church Age saints, the Bride, as discussed in Revelation 19:7-9. It is also the fulfillment of the promise given to the church at Thyatira, and to all of the churches, in Revelation 2:27. Please study Jude 14 & 15

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 the Lord Jesus returns to the clouds, not to the earth, ‘for’ His saints. In Revelation 19:11-22 the Lord Jesus comes to the earth, not just the clouds, ‘with’ his saints. It is very obvious that the two comings are separate events and no amount of convoluted ‘private,’ interpretation can reconcile the two events into one event.

Covenanter said:

We know that Jesus coming with & for his saints in 1 The. 4 is "sudden destruction" for the ungodly. 1 The. 5:3 not a period of war. Paul makes this clear in 2 The. 1:7-10 - everlasting destruction by fire. See Rev. 20:9  

Alan replied.

Paul never wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 that the Lord Coming, ‘... with his saints...’

And, the, "sudden destruction" for the ungodly,’ in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is a direct reference to the fact that after the rapture the Tribulation Period starts.

Furthermore, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 is a direct reference to the coming of the Lord Jesus as a conquering King in Revelation 19:11-22 It is not a reference, nor even in the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 This improper ‘dividing’ of scripture is in serious error.

To be a soldier in this army (2 Timothy 2:3), you need to take up your cross and follow Jesus. ‘No Cross – No Crown’, 2 Timothy 2:12 For those saints who are not willing fight the fight of faith, to be a good soldier for Jesus, and are ‘faint hearted,’ you may be excused from the Lord’s army. “And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren’s heart faint as well as his heart.” Deuteronomy 20:8 

Covenanter said:

Christian warfare is against spiritual wickedness, not against flesh & blood. Eph. 6  I don't think we should anticipate getting involved in a physical battle, & actually there are no physical battles fought in Rev. 19 & 20 The wicked gather for war & perish. The saints are praising God in their 4 hallelujahs, gathering for the marriage supper, & they see their Lord completing his victory by the sword of his mouth, & the wicked are utterly condemned. God brought creation into existence by his Word, & now completes his victory over evil by his word.   

Alan replied:

Covenanter stated, ‘...there are no physical battles fought in Rev. 19 & 20...’ That statement is a dis-belief of the literal battle of Revelation chapter 19 and 20 in fulfillment Isaiah 34:1-8 and Psalm 2:8 & 9

“…and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: …”

Psalm 2:8 & 9 will be fulfilled at this juncture, “Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

Covenanter said:

A rod of iron destroys utterly.

Alan reply:

Yes it does. That is the correct, and very plain and clear, interpretation of what God Almighty said about His Son the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus will destroy, literally, the current world systems of government and replace every one with his own. Isaiah, and other prophets, prophesied the destruction of the world systems as will be fulfilled by the Lord Jesus in Revelation 19:11-22.

Covenanter said:

Now I agree with your conclusion. We disagree in details & interpretation, but agree in our Lord's final & complete victory, & our blessed part in that victory as we stand & fight in spiritual armour. 

 Alan,

Thank you. We do both agree on the final victory of the Lord Jesus in all areas. I will upload the next lesson, Revelation 19:17-21 in a few days.

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Alan - I am offended by your disparaging tone & personal attack. I hoped that we could study the Scripture from different viewpoints in a courteous & constructive manner. I was mistaken.

I'll just comment on one section of the exchange.

Covenanter said:

We know that Jesus coming with & for his saints in 1 The. 4 is "sudden destruction" for the ungodly. 1 The. 5:3 not a period of war. Paul makes this clear in 2 The. 1:7-10 - everlasting destruction by fire. See Rev. 20:9  

Alan replied.

Paul never wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 that the Lord Coming, ‘... with his saints...’ Now, in the new corrupt versions of the scriptures of the scriptures, that may be true: but, I double-checked my trusty, reliable, preserved, Authorized Version commonly known as the King James Version of 1611, and I failed to see where the Lord Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 said, ‘...with his saints.' Are you using a NIV? Are you using a Jehovah’s Witnesses New World Version? Is that the quote from The Living Bible? I did not check the New KJV (NKJV). Maybe it’s in the NKJV? Are you using the latest new-fangled version in print? The last time checked, not counting the New Greek translations, there were 276 new versions of the Bible since 1881.

And, the, "sudden destruction" for the ungodly,’ in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is a direct reference to the fact that after the rapture the Tribulation Period starts.

Furthermore, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 is a direct reference to the coming of the Lord Jesus as a conquering King in Revelation 19:11-22 It is not a reference, nor even in the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 This improper ‘dividing’ of scripture is in serious error.

"With his saints" ... what does the KJV say?

1 The. 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 The. 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

You speak of FACT when you reject the obvious reference to 1 The. 5:3 to 2 The. 1:7-10 . 

No the FACT is that you are imposing a false interpretation system on the clear words of Scripture, and even denying the clear words of Scripture to impose your system.

Claiming that sudden destruction is simply the start of a 7 year tribulation period, & is not related to  everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;  is simply nonsense. Paul's writing is inspired; your's & mine are not. What we write must be a fair comment on what Paul wrote, not based on someone else's private interpretation. Please start reading & believing the Bible for yourself, rather than making disparaging remarks that show your ignorance & lack of understanding of the KVJ. 

  

 

 

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  Rev 1:1 ¶  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 

Rev was signified, meaning it was given  in signs or figures.  We would say symbols.  Allegory is something different.  

When a sign is explained, it helps us to understand the rest, as scripture does not contradict itself.    Note; Rev was given to the church not to the Jews.  It was written to the church and concerns the church throughout.

 

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John 81,

The tread has not deteriorated on my account. I have been civil and understanding on our differences.

 

Since the last few days, I have been called a traitor by Pilgrim and Covenanter agreed. Covenanter called my country, the United States of America, a Fascist Country, and you pretty well agreed. Covenanter wrote he did not like my 'tone,' and you call me uncivil! Ah, come on now! You got to be kidding me!  Are both of you serious! If you are, both of you are being hypocritical.

 

Then, Covenanter said this: "I too reject private interpretation. One reason for the difference in our understanding is the Altantic Ocean, & the influence of Scofield on the American Bible colleges. As a result dispensationalism has become orthodoxy, rather than Covenant theology. "

 

Covenanter directly implied that my teaching was, '...private interpretation..' throughout this study he says that the teaching of the literal events of Revelations is a 'private teaching.' And, even though I have not quoted Scofield one time in this study he says that the influence of Scofield has resulted in the 'American Bible colleges," being 'unorthodox' and his teaching 'orthodox.' 

 

Covenanter  has never had the Christian courtesy to ask if I have been to Bible College, and if I have, where I have been to Bible College and If I follow Scofield's teaching. I have not even quoted from Scofield! Probably after this post he will probably. Then, he, or somebody else that does agree with me, will probably find something bad about the College (if I did go to Bible College in America).

 

You, Covenanter and Pilgrim blame me for non-existent problems: such as lack of civility, and other un-Christian attributes in an effort to downgrade my teaching. The slander that I have first received by you brethren is not only uncalled for, extremely un-Christian, and I think, done deliberately to berate me for my biblical teaching and patriotic beliefs.

 

The teaching of the fulfillment of the prophetic events are fulfilled literally in the book of Revelation. To believe in, 'Preterist,' or  'Replacement Theology,' or  'Covenant theology,' and other figurative, allegorical, or fantastical beliefs is a dis-belief in the scriptures, the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ, and Paul the Apostle. Because of my teaching I am being slandered, lied at, and maligned. If you do not agree with me then ask me specific questions and not malign  my character.

 

And you call me uncivil. "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20 That, my friend is what is happening to me due to my Patriotic stand and the literal interpretation of the Prophets and the Book of Revelation.

Edited by Alan
spelling twice (three times)

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John 81,

The tread has not deteriorated on my account. I have been civil and understanding on our differences.

 

Since the last few days, I have been called a traitor by Pilgram and Covenanter agreed. Covenanter called my country, the United States of America, a Facist Country, and you pretty well agreed. Covenante wrote he did not like my 'tone,' and you call me uncivil! Ah, come on now! You got to be kidding me!  Are both of you serious! If you are, both of you are being hypocritical.

 

Then, Coventanter said this: "I too reject private interpretation. One reason for the difference in our understanding is the Altantic Ocean, & the influence of Scofield on the American Bible colleges. As a result dispensationalism has become orthodoxy, rather than Covenant theology. "

 

Covenanter directly implied that my reaching was, '...pirvate interpretation..' thorughout this study he says that the teaching of the literal events of Revelations is a 'private teaching.' And, even though I have not quoted Scofield one time in this study he says that the influence of Scofied has resulted in the 'American Bible colleges," being 'unorthodox' and his teaching 'orthodox.' 

 

Covenanter  has never had the Christian courtesy to ask if I have been to Bible College, and if I have, where I have been to Bible College and If I follow Scofield's teaching. I have not even quoted from Scofield! Porbably after this post he will probably. Then, he, or somebody else that does agree with me, will probably find something bad about the College (if I did go to Bible College in America).

 

You, Covenanter and Pilgram blame me for non-existant problems: such as lack of civility, and other un-Christian attributes in an effort to downgrade my teaching. The slander that I have first received by you brethren is not only uncalled for, extememly un-Christian, and I think, done deliberately to berate me for my biblical teaching and patriotic beliefs.

 

The teaching of the fulfillment of the prophetic events are fulfilled literaly in the book of Revelation. To believe in, 'Preterist,' or  'Replacement Theology,' or  'Covenant theology,' and other figurative, allegrocal, or fantacial beliefs is a dis-belief in the scriptures, the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ, and Paul the Apostle. Because of my teaching I am being slandered, lied at, and maligned. If you do not agree with me then ask me specific questions and not malign  my character.

 

And you call me uncivil. "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20 That, my friend is what is happening to me due to my Patriotic stand and the literal interpretation of the Prophets and the Book of Revelation.

​For some reason you are seriously misreading some posts.

Pilgrim pointed out that you seem to have insinuated I was a traitor by your Russian agent comment. Pilgrim never called you a traitor, nor did I or anyone else. Salyan well address that too.

If you believe my post about the tone of the thread applied to you rather than being a general comment, I can't help that because I didn't mention you at all. In fact, I didn't mention anyone.

I don't recall Covenanter saying America is fascist (not saying that might not be in a post in some thread, but if so, I missed it) and I know I never said that nor have I ever accused you of being fascist or anything else.

As to the contents of the discussion here on the actual topic, I've not become involved nor have I sided with anyone or any view in postings in this thread. I did make a post letting those here know I was reading the postings, considering what's being put forth and looking to Scripture on my own time.

Alan, I'm not your enemy, nor an enemy of anyone here. Please stop reading things into postings that aren't there. If I have something to say to someone I try to say it plainly. The last time I plainly said something to you was with regards to you misreading my postings and I simply pointed out your misunderstanding. Your response was to call me a liar and insinuate I'm an enemy agent (which is why Pilgrim questioned you calling me a traitor; he never called you one). Please read our posts carefully and you will see we are not attacking you.

 

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Revelation 19:17-21, “The Fulfillment of Prophecy at the Battle of Armageddon.”

Special Note:

“And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

Revelation 16:16

Verse 17, And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God.

Verse 18, That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond,  both small and great.

Verse 19, And I saw the beast, and kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Verse 20, and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Verse 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Verse 17 & 18 The Call of the Angel for War and A Sacrifice of God for the Fowls.

We see the fulfillment of Ezekiel 39:1-7, 17-29, Isaiah 34:1-8 and Zechariah 14:1-3 in this battle. Let us take note of a couple of prophesies in this section. Ezekiel 39:17, “And, thou son of man, thy saith the LORD GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.”

Please take careful note. “... upon the mountains of Israel...” the Tribulation period is primarily the time s of Jacob’s Trouble to bring Israel back to the land of Israel. Why did God cause the Tribulation period? Why is the Lord Jesus leading this great army of saints to overcome the heathen (Ezekiel 39:23 & 28)?

“Therefore thus saith the LORD God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;” ... “Then shall they [Israel] know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.” Ezekiel 39: 25 & 28

The events of the Tribulation Period, Revelation chapter 6 through 18, is primarily to fulfill the promises given to the nation of Israel. To bring the chosen sons of Jacob, the elect of the children of Israel, restored back to the land of Israel.

The prophecy of Amos 3:9-17 is also fulfilled at this time. The events of Revelation chapter 6-18 has nothing to do with the church of the redeemed as the church was taken out of the Tribulation period, secretly, as a thief, in Revelation 4:1. That is why the true church is not mentioned at all.

Verse 19 and 20 The End of the Beast, the False Prophet, and the Deceived who took the Mark of the Beast.

The prophet Joel prophesied of this time in Joel 2:11, “And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

Nobody can, ‘abide it.” The armies of the Beast are destroyed and the Beast and the False Prophet are taken bodily and cast, ‘alive,’ into the ‘lake of fire.’ Hell, the lake of fire, is literal and eternal. The end result of those taking the mark of the Beast is eternity in hell.

The Beast deceived the whole world through his lies, Revelation 12:9.

The False Prophet deceived the world through his ‘charismatic miracles,’ and religious doctrine: lies. All religious falsehood are lies. The Great Whore, Revelation 17:5, the Roman Catholic Church and all other false religious denominations allied with her, is, as we speak, deceiving the earth through religious lies. False churches use false bibles, to teach false doctrine in order to deceive. False, or miss-guided, brethren teach erroneous doctrine through the improperly dividing of scripture, or twisting the scripture, in order to deceive.

The end result of the False Prophet, False teachers, and people: who are in a false church, and who have a false belief in the Lord Jesus, is eternity in  the lake of fire. Pease study 1 Timothy 1:18-20, 4:1, 2 and 16 Remember Balaam? Korah? Cain? Numbers, Jude 11, and Genesis 3:1-17

Verse 21 The Feast of the Fowls.

Please re-read Ezekiel chapter 39 as previously mentioned.

This is also the fulfillment of the prophetic words of the Lord Jesus that He spoke in Matthew 24:28, “For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.” The carcasses’ of the armies of the Beast and the False Prophet are where the eagles are going to gather as spoken by the Lord Jesus.

The companion passage of this prophecy is recorded in Luke 17:37, “And they answered and said unto him, Where, LORD? And he said unto them, wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” The prophecy of the Lord Jesus is fulfilled in, ‘the Feast of the Fowls.”

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Brethren

In order to keep this thread as civil, polite, and a good Christian attitude, I would like have any discussion revolve only around the particular verses involved. In this case, Revelation 19:17-21. It is my intention to create an atmosphere of simply studying the scripures as they speak without getting involved with personalities, side issues, etc... I will try and only answers those questions I feel are appropriate and stay away from 'baited,' and 'argumentive,' or 'side issue,' questions. Due to the complexity of prophecies and number of prophesies involved , I know I cannot bring out all of the apporpriate passages. If there are any passages that I neglect to mention please let all of us know and we will comment on them. Thank you for your spirit of cooperation. May we again renew outselves to a more deep understanding and love for the word of God.

Alan

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Brethren

In order to keep this thread as civil, polite, and a good Christian attitude, I would like have any discussion revolve only around the particular verses involved. In this case, Revelation 19:17-21. It is my intention to create an atmosphere of simply studying the scripures as they speak without getting involved with personalities, side issues, etc... I will try and only answers those questions I feel are appropriate and stay away from 'baited,' and 'argumentive,' or 'side issue,' questions. Due to the complexity of prophecies and number of prophesies involved , I know I cannot bring out all of the apporpriate passages. If there are any passages that I neglect to mention please let all of us know and we will comment on them. Thank you for your spirit of cooperation. May we again renew outselves to a more deep understanding and love for the word of God.

Alan

​Thank you. I've been getting a much better understanding of the basis of some differing views in this area as well as clearer direction in my personal studies in this thread than in previous threads on this topic. Keeping focus and limiting the discussion to aspects concerning the specific verses under observation is beneficial and much appreciated.

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Comments in blue. @BroMatt it would be helpful in a post like this to have the formatting options on display. 

Revelation 19:17-21, “The Fulfillment of Prophecy at the Battle of Armageddon.”

Special Note:

“And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

Revelation 16:16

Verse 17, And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God.

Verse 18, That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond,  both small and great.

Verse 19, And I saw the beast, and kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Verse 20, and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Verse 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Verse 17 & 18 The Call of the Angel for War and A Sacrifice of God for the Fowls.

We see the fulfillment of Ezekiel 39:1-7, 17-29, Isaiah 34:1-8 and Zechariah 14:1-3 in this battle. Let us take note of a couple of prophesies in this section. Ezekiel 39:17, “And, thou son of man, thy saith the LORD GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.”

The Gog-Magog prophecy of Ezekiel 38 & 39 is explicitly restated after the "millennium" indicating that the Satan-led nations will gather against Christ at the end of time before they are utterly destroyed by fire from heaven. The battles employ weapons of the time, to be used as firewood. Eze. 39:9-10 Now, I do not expect the Bible prophets to describe modern warfare & weapons, but we do need to understand what the prophets are describing if the prophecies are applicable to us & our times. I consider it to be symbolic of God's final judgement of the wicked, the beasts, false prophets & those who follow them. I do not anticipate a physical battle of the demonic armies against Christ in person. God the Son fight with the sword of his mouth - his word. A word is all he needs. Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Mat. 25:41    

Please take careful note. “... upon the mountains of Israel...” the Tribulation period is primarily the time s of Jacob’s Trouble to bring Israel back to the land of Israel. Why did God cause the Tribulation period? Why is the Lord Jesus leading this great army of saints to overcome the heathen (Ezekiel 39:23 & 28)?

“Therefore thus saith the LORD God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;” ... “Then shall they [Israel] know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.” Ezekiel 39: 25 & 28

The events of the Tribulation Period, Revelation chapter 6 through 18, is primarily to fulfill the promises given to the nation of Israel. To bring the chosen sons of Jacob, the elect of the children of Israel, restored back to the land of Israel.

The prophecy of Amos 3:9-17 is also fulfilled at this time. The events of Revelation chapter 6-18 has nothing to do with the church of the redeemed as the church was taken out of the Tribulation period, secretly, as a thief, in Revelation 4:1. That is why the true church is not mentioned at all.

Verse 19 and 20 The End of the Beast, the False Prophet, and the Deceived who took the Mark of the Beast.

The prophet Joel prophesied of this time in Joel 2:11, “And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

The prophecy of Joel taken literally, is about a plague of locusts, with the effects of a great swarm of locusts being described - darkening the sun, moon & stars, & devouring everything green. Joel 1 & 2 describe that plague in terms of an invading army. Yet that plague will end with repentance & restoration. Joel 2:12-27    

That was the common experience of the people of Israel throughout their history. Turning away from God, suffering various judgements, repenting & restoration. Joel 2:28-32 is the wonderful promise of Pentecost. The sun was indeed turned to darkness at Calvary a few weeks before.

The plague of locusts is seen again in Rev. 9 when the fifth trumpet sounds. This is a demonic plague.   

Nobody can, ‘abide it.” The armies of the Beast are destroyed and the Beast and the False Prophet are taken bodily and cast, ‘alive,’ into the ‘lake of fire.’ Hell, the lake of fire, is literal and eternal. The end result of those taking the mark of the Beast is eternity in hell.

The Beast deceived the whole world through his lies, Revelation 12:9.

The False Prophet deceived the world through his ‘charismatic miracles,’ and religious doctrine: lies. All religious falsehood are lies. The Great Whore, Revelation 17:5, the Roman Catholic Church and all other false religious denominations allied with her, is, as we speak, deceiving the earth through religious lies. False churches use false bibles, to teach false doctrine in order to deceive. False, or miss-guided, brethren teach erroneous doctrine through the improperly dividing of scripture, or twisting the scripture, in order to deceive.

The end result of the False Prophet, False teachers, and people: who are in a false church, and who have a false belief in the Lord Jesus, is eternity in  the lake of fire. Pease study 1 Timothy 1:18-20, 4:1, 2 and 16 Remember Balaam? Korah? Cain? Numbers, Jude 11, and Genesis 3:1-17 

I'm in general agreement. I believe, however, that the immediate context of Revelation is the destruction of Jerusalem, whose mantle of opposition to Christ & his church was taken up by Rome. What applied at the time of writing applies down the centuries to this day. 

Verse 21 The Feast of the Fowls.

Please re-read Ezekiel chapter 39 as previously mentioned.  Yes.

This is also the fulfillment of the prophetic words of the Lord Jesus that He spoke in Matthew 24:28, “For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.” The carcasses’ of the armies of the Beast and the False Prophet are where the eagles are going to gather as spoken by the Lord Jesus.

The companion passage of this prophecy is recorded in Luke 17:37, “And they answered and said unto him, Where, LORD? And he said unto them, wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” The prophecy of the Lord Jesus is fulfilled in, ‘the Feast of the Fowls.”

I have to agree there, as the context of Jesus' warnings & his Olivet prophecy concerns the destruction of Jerusalem, with further warnings for Christian living in readiness for his return, which culminates in resurrection & judgement. [Even if we profoundly disagree!] 

To summarise the chapter as I understand it.

There are many occasions throughout the NT when we learn of the double harvest judgement. John -  Mat. 3:11-12 Jesus Kingdom parables - Mat. 13:37-43 John 5:28-29 Peter - Acts 3:22-26 Paul - 2 The. 1:6-10 Peter - 2 Peter 3:7 2 Peter 3:13 John - Rev. 14:14-19 So we see in Rev. 19 the praises of the redeemed in heaven as the wicked are judged - that glorious 4-fold hallelujah!

The redeemed join their heavenly bridegroom for the marriage feast, while Christ is seen as the Faithful & True on a white horse, leading the heavenly army. He is King of kings & Lord of lords & he has one final act of judgement to accomplish - the destruction of the wicked who fought against him & his followers on earth. It's not a physical battle, but judgement by his Word, the sword of his mouth, & they are cast into hell. That judgement is prophesied in terms of a physical battle, but in reality is far more terrible, & is not prolongued, & the issue is not in doubt.

Where is Israel in all this? Counted in with the redeemed people of God - firstfruits ( Rev. 14:1-5 ), praising their Saviour-God with heart-felt hallelujahs. Jesus & his Apostles do not see a return to the land, but a return to their Saviour God. 

I'm not saying we are in Armageddon now, but as we look around the world we can see the Satan-led armies gathering against the believers in many countries, with the enemy showing many faces -  the absolute hatred of ISIS & atheist communism, resurgent Hinduism, to the benign deceptive ecumenical movement & false Christianity. Watch & pray! Mark 13:31-33      

 

 

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Revelation 19:17-21 Response to Covenanter March 18, 2015

Verse 17 & 18 The Call of the Angel for War and A Sacrifice of God for the Fowls.

Covenanter wrote:

The Gog-Magog prophecy of Ezekiel 38 & 39 is explicitly restated after the "millennium" indicating that the Satan-led nations will gather against Christ at the end of time before they are utterly destroyed by fire from heaven. The battles employ weapons of the time, to be used as firewood. Eze. 39:9-10 Now, I do not expect the Bible prophets to describe modern warfare & weapons, but we do need to understand what the prophets are describing if the prophecies are applicable to us & our times. I consider it to be symbolic ... I do not anticipate a physical battle of the demonic armies against Christ in person.

Alan replied:

  1. I thought that you did not believe in a literal Millennium in Revelation 20:3-6. So, how is it that you say that the judgment, the battles referred to Revelation 19: 11-21; 20:7-9 and Ezekiel are all symbolic. To me it makes no sense if all of these are symbolic, and we are in the Tribulation or Millennium now; why are you saying the two battles are separate? Forgive me, if it is all symbolic than anybody can interpret anything they so desire. Hence, there is no truth, no real prophecy and no real meaning, and obviously, no real battle. To assume that that the weapons employed are not real, ‘wood,’ because of the prophets did not understand modern warfare is questionable. Possibly, during the extreme plagues during the Tribulation all modern machines are destroyed, shipping is halted, and gasoline supplies for modern machinery is unobtainable. Hence, warring nations will revert back to horses.

  2. A very close reading of Ezekiel chapter 38 & 39 and Revelation 19:11-21 and the final battle of, ‘God and Magog,’ has convinced me that the two battles are connected. I will cover more of this in my study of Revelation 20:7-10

Verse 19 and 20 The End of the Beast, the False Prophet, and the Deceived who took the Mark of the Beast.

The prophet Joel prophesied of this time in Joel 2:11, “And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

Covenanter wrote:

The prophecy of Joel taken literally, is about a plague of locusts... Joel 2:28-32 is the wonderful promise of Pentecost. The sun was indeed turned to darkness at Calvary a few weeks before.

The plague of locusts is seen again in Rev. 9 when the fifth trumpet sounds. This is a demonic plague.   

Alan replied:

The fulfillment of Joel 2:11 is fulfilled in Revelation 19:11-21 as previously mentioned. Revelation 19:21 expressly, and very clearly, states, “And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse [the Lord Jesus], which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” There is no symbolism in this verse.

Also, the following verses are very clear that the, ‘day of the LORD, and the plague of locusts, are not the same. Joel was prophesying concerning the battle in Revelation 19:11-21 “Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is at hand, as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.” Joel 1:15 “Blow the alarm in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand.” Joel 2:30and 31, “And I will shew wonders in the heavens, and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.”

All of that prophecy did not happen in Acts 2:17-21; the conclusion of that prophecy is in Revelation 19:11-21

I do agree with one of your acute observations in Joel concerning the locusts. It does coincide with the events of Revelation 9:1-11. Thank you very much for bringing that out as I am sure it is a blessing to all. Maybe if you had a future lesson in another post concerning the locusts I am sure it would be a blessing to all.

Covenanter wrote:

I'm in general agreement. I believe, however, that the immediate context of Revelation is the destruction of Jerusalem, whose mantle of opposition to Christ & his church was taken up by Rome. What applied at the time of writing applies down the centuries to this day. 

Alan replied:

I am glad that you are general agreement. The immediate context though is the end of the Tribulation Period with the destruction of the Beast and False Prophet, it is not in the immediate context of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Verse 21 The Feast of the Fowls.

Covenanter wrote:

I have to agree there, as the context of Jesus' warnings & his Olivet prophecy concerns the destruction of Jerusalem, with further warnings for Christian living in readiness for his return, which culminates in resurrection & judgement. [Even if we profoundly disagree!] 

To summarise the chapter as I understand it.

Alan replied:

The context is the end of the Tribulation Period and not the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

It's not a physical battle, but judgement by his Word, the sword of his mouth, & they are cast into hell. That judgement is prophesied in terms of a physical battle, but in reality is far more terrible, & is not prolongued, & the issue is not in doubt.

Alan replied:

It is a physical, literal, battle. None of the events, people, animals, or location, is symbolic or figurative in any manner, shape or fashion.

Covenanter wrote:

Where is Israel in all this? Counted in with the redeemed people of God - firstfruits ( Rev. 14:1-5 ), praising their Saviour-God with heart-felt hallelujahs. Jesus & his Apostles do not see a return to the land, but a return to their Saviour God. 

Alan replied:

Israel is back in the land being protected by God from the anti-Christ: Revelation chapter 12. The Lord Jesus is the one leading the battle.

Covenanter wrote:

I'm not saying we are in Armageddon now...

Alan replied:

If what you have said is true, that the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 was the last of the prophetic of God dealing with the Jews, and all the events so far that we covered are, ‘symbolic, than yes, we are in the period known in the scriptures as, ‘Armageddon,’ or ‘the Tribulation Period,’ or the, ‘Millennium.’ That is the only conclusion possible in your line of interpretation.

I, for one of many brethren, am thankful that we are not. The Lord Jesus gave me, and every other redeemed saint, as Jesus phrased it, “...unto the churches,” , a special promise in Revelation 3:10, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation [the Tribulation period] which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

Thank you Lord Jesus!

Brethren

The next lesson in Revelation 20 will be uploaded soon! Keep those comments, questions, points of discussion, and thoughts coming!

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Revelation 19:17-21 Response to Covenanter March 18, 2015

Verse 17 & 18 The Call of the Angel for War and A Sacrifice of God for the Fowls.

Covenanter wrote:

The Gog-Magog prophecy of Ezekiel 38 & 39 is explicitly restated after the "millennium" indicating that the Satan-led nations will gather against Christ at the end of time before they are utterly destroyed by fire from heaven. The battles employ weapons of the time, to be used as firewood.Eze. 39:9-10 Now, I do not expect the Bible prophets to describe modern warfare & weapons, but we do need to understand what the prophets are describing if the prophecies are applicable to us & our times. I consider it to be symbolic ... I do not anticipate a physical battle of the demonic armies against Christ in person.

Alan replied:

  1. I thought that you did not believe in a literal Millennium in Revelation 20:3-6. So, how is it that you say that the judgment, the battles referred to Revelation 19: 11-2120:7-9and Ezekiel are all symbolic. To me it makes no sense if all of these are symbolic, and we are in the Tribulation or Millennium now; why are you saying the two battles are separate? Forgive me, if it is all symbolic than anybody can interpret anything they so desire. Hence, there is no truth, no real prophecy and no real meaning, and obviously, no real battle. To assume that that the weapons employed are not real, ‘wood,’ because of the prophets did not understand modern warfare is questionable. Possibly, during the extreme plagues during the Tribulation all modern machines are destroyed, shipping is halted, and gasoline supplies for modern machinery is unobtainable. Hence, warring nations will revert back to horses.

  2. A very close reading of Ezekiel chapter 38 & 39 and Revelation 19:11-21 and the final battle of, ‘God and Magog,’ has convinced me that the two battles are connected. I will cover more of this in my study of Revelation 20:7-10

You did not include my final sentence: 

God the Son fights with the sword of his mouth - his word. A word is all he needs. Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Mat. 25:41    

Christ defeats his enemies with his Word, NOT physically with a sharpened tongue.  

I put "millennium" in quotes to my understanding of Rev. 20, which I understand to run from the first C to the end of time, shortly before Jesus returns. The battles of Rev. 19 & 20 are I believe the same - Gog/Magog. The final spiritual battle against the people of God on earth. Whether the present situation is the final battle, I do not know. Many occasions down the centuries have caused believers to expect the imminent return of Jesus. The fall of Rome, obviously, but also the wars & plagues of the second millennium, RC persecution & the Reformation, WWII & Jews returning to the promised land, etc. 

"Symbolic" must have a real meaning to be usefully symbolic. We are not inventing arbitrary meanings at a whim. In the context, physical war is symbolic of spiritual war. 

OT prophecy may have an immediate meaning according to context, e.g. Isa. 13:1  Isa. 13:17 It may be a clear prophecy of Jesus life & work, e.g. Isa. 9:6-7 & Zec. 9:9 & the many other refs. in the Gospels.

Reading the NT we come across many OT prophecies being fulfilled, & many allusions to types & shadows of the Law being examples of spiritual, heavenly realities. Prophecy is real, but needs to be understood in ways the NT writers teach. 

 

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Covenanter wrote:

Where is Israel in all this? Counted in with the redeemed people of God - firstfruits ( Rev. 14:1-5 ), praising their Saviour-God with heart-felt hallelujahs. Jesus & his Apostles do not see a return to the land, but a return to their Saviour God. 

Alan replied:

Israel is back in the land being protected by God from the anti-Christ: Revelation chapter 12. The Lord Jesus is the one leading the battle.

Covenanter wrote:

I'm not saying we are in Armageddon now...

Alan replied:

If what you have said is true, that the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 was the last of the prophetic of God dealing with the Jews, and all the events so far that we covered are, ‘symbolic, than yes, we are in the period known in the scriptures as, ‘Armageddon,’ or ‘the Tribulation Period,’ or the, ‘Millennium.’ That is the only conclusion possible in your line of interpretation.

I, for one of many brethren, am thankful that we are not. The Lord Jesus gave me, and every other redeemed saint, as Jesus phrased it, “...unto the churches,” , a special promise in Revelation 3:10, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation [the Tribulation period] which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

Thank you Lord Jesus!

 

The destruction of Jerusalem was indeed God's final dealing with national Israel, though not, of course, with the Jews - the Gospel remains welcoming to all to the end of time. See Mat. 23:32-36  1 The. 2:14-16 That great trib & destruction was completed in the AD 70 destruction. Note the fulfilment of Jesus' prophecy to the women of Jerusalem: Luke 23:27-31 Rev. 6:15-17 originally prophesied by Isaiah 2:19-21 Moses' prophetic warning in Deu. 18:15-19 was repeated by Peter - Acts 3:22-23 The Holy Spirit through Stephen declared them "uncircumcised" - Acts 7:48-53 

 

Whether there will be a great Jewish revival at the end of time in unclear from prophecy. God's people, both Jew & Gentile are being saved down the ages, but the rejection of Christ by unbelieving Jews means that Jewish Christians soon become estranged from the families & by Christian marriage lose their Jewish identity. (But not to God who knows all.) 

 

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Covenanter wrote:

The destruction of Jerusalem was indeed God's final dealing with national Israel, though not, of course, with the Jews - the Gospel remains welcoming to all to the end of time. See Mat. 23:32-36  1 The. 2:14-16 That great trib & destruction was completed in the AD 70 destruction. Note the fulfilment of Jesus' prophecy to the women of Jerusalem: Luke 23:27-31 Rev. 6:15-17 originally prophesied by Isaiah 2:19-21 Moses' prophetic warning in Deu. 18:15-19 was repeated by Peter - Acts 3:22-23 The Holy Spirit through Stephen declared them "uncircumcised" - Acts 7:48-53 

Covenanter said:

God the Son fights with the sword of his mouth - his word. A word is all he needs. Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Mat. 25:41 

Alan replied:

The words of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 25:41 is taken completely out of context of Revelation 19:17-21 The context of Matthew 25:31-46 is dealing with the Lord Jesus on His throne in Jerusalem during His Millenial reign. The Lord Jesus can use either His mouth to speak the words or His hands to do His work.

Also, in John 18:1-6, as an example, the Lord Jesus uses the words of His mouth to cause Judas and the others to fall backward. During the events of Revelation 19:11-21 the Lord Jesus will use His word as a sword, He will speak and, instead of falling backward, they will be killed.

 

Whether there will be a great Jewish revival at the end of time in unclear from prophecy. God's people, both Jew & Gentile are being saved down the ages, but the rejection of Christ by unbelieving Jews means that Jewish Christians soon become estranged from the families & by Christian marriage lose their Jewish identity. (But not to God who knows all.) 

 

Alan Replied:

I have previously scripturally refuted the ‘Replacement Theology,’ and ‘Preterist theology,’ interpretation that the Great Tribulation Period ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. adequately.

Although I have already briefly answered the question, ‘The destruction of Jerusalem was indeed God's final dealing with national Israel...’ that statement is in doctrinal error. I will briefly refer the reader to the book of Hosea.

“I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.” Hosea 12:10 Hosea was a ‘similitude,’ or, ‘a type,’ of the backslidden, and adulterous, nation of Israel.

As Hosea’s backslidden and adulterous wife, Gomer, was restored (please study Hosea 3:1-3), one day God will restore the nation of Israel to Himself. Hosea 3:5, “Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.” The ‘latter days,’ is a clear and refutable reference to the fulfillment in the events in Revelation chapter 6-20

See Hosea 5:15 and the entire chapter of Hosea 14

God Almighty gave this promise to the nation of Israel that totally exposes the incorrect doctrine of ‘Replacement Theology,’ and ‘Preterist theology,’ when God promised to the nation of Israel.

“I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.” Hosea 14:4

Brethren,

Please excuse the delay as I needed to delay the next lesson to answer the above two concerns. The next lesson will be uploaded soon. Looking forward to a continuing great, and obviously controversial, study in the events of the last days as recorded in the Book of Revelation!

 

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Revelation 20:1-3, “Satan Bound.”

Verse 1, And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Verse 2, And he laid hold on the dragon that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Verse 3, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

“... an angel come down from heaven, ...’

The angel is the Lord Jesus. Revelation 1:18, “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”

And, is the same angel in Revelation 9:1 and 2 that takes the key of the bottomless pit in order for the demonic locusts upon the earth.

 ‘...having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.’

The Lord Jesus does not say a word, He takes the ‘key,’ to the bottomless pit, ‘hell,’ He takes a ‘great chain.’ in His hands. The ‘great chain,’ is a special chain.  2 Peter 2:4, “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.” 2 Peter 2:4 in conjunction with 2 Peter 2:4 please read Jude 6. These chains are, ‘chains of darkness,’ whereas the chain in the hands of the Lord Jesus, is a special, ‘great chain.’ And comments on this, 'great chain?'

The Lord Jesus uses His own two hands to physically hold this, ‘great chain,’ in His own two hands. The Lord Jesus could use His mouth to speak the word: but He does not. The Lord Jesus is God in the flesh. He can use His hands to fulfill His will, or His feet like any other man uses the members of his body to accomplish a task.

‘... the Devil,...’

The order of names is the same as written in Revelation 12:9. The names given the Devil are a definite reference to his character: Dragon is a reference to his cruelty, Serpent is a reference to his guile and cunning treachery, Devil is a reference to his deceptive abilities and the tempter of men, Satan means opponent; the enemy of God, Jesus, The Bible, Righteousness, Holiness, Faithful Preachers, and Saints. It has been said that you can know a man's character by the company they keep.  Who do you keep company with?

‘...cast him into the bottomless pit...’

Please take special notice. The Lord Jesus does not speak a word. Although the Lord Jesus could just the word to bind Satan, He does not. He takes the Devil in His own two hands, and bodily throws him into the bottomless pit: hell. Again, the Lord Jesus, God in the flesh, uses His hands to fulfill a task as any other man would.

‘... that he should deceive the nations no more...’

The primary object of Satan is to deceive. Satan deceived Eve into eating the forbidden fruit in order to cause man to dis-obey God, die, and spend eternity in hell. Satan hates God and does not want man to obey Him. Satan, and his devils (demons), primary arena of deception is ‘religion.’

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that brought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. ” 2 Peter 2:1 One of the duties of a Man of God is to teach the truth and denounce heresy. Jude 3 & 4 are still applicable in these last days. These false teachers, in these last days, are now even among the independent Baptist churches. Satan deceives men through religion. False religion and the false doctrines of the various corrupt religions of the world are deceiving men.

‘... till the thousand years should be fulfilled...’

For a literal one thousand years Satan will be sealed in the bottomless pit. The 1000 years is no way symbolic, figurative, or any other manner, not literal. God will fulfill His word as the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostle John to write.

“... after that...”

This is a direct, and irrefutable, reference to the 1000 millennial reign of Christ in verse 4-6.

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Thank you for these lessons on Revelation. I have always been fascinated by this book, but have had difficulty understanding events and the timelines and such. Your lessons have been very helpful for me in these areas. :godisgood:

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Yes. The timing of Revelation 20 follows immediately the events of Revelation 19.

​With that timing, we see a total victory for Jesus by the end of Rev. 19:17-21  - believers have been "raptured" & the unbelievers slain. As I understand your teaching, you believe that great slaughter - "the feast of the fowls" was Ezekiel's Gog-Magog war & defeat. 

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. @BroMatt I can't indent this, so Scripture is in line with the rest of my reply.
 
No-one is left on earth. No mention of "tribulation survivors."  Though presumably you believe that 1/3 of Jews in Judaea will survive that slaughter, believe in Jesus, & enter the millennium. That is not taught here. 
 
As we move into Rev. 20, there are no nations to be deceived by Satan. They have been totally slain. The population of earth will be only Christian Jews. Yet after that glorious & peaceful millennium, the Gog-Magog war & defeat again takes place. Rev. 20:7-10 
 
And bear in mind that the double harvest took place in Rev. 14:14-20 
 
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev. 14:6-7 
 
I suggest you think again about your interpretation. Think "reiteration."  @BroMatt I had to go up a long way to find the "link" ikon. It would be helpful to have the format options visible. 
 
 
 

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Revelation 19-11-21 Covenanter Miss-interpretations March 20, 2015

Covenanter wrote:

With that timing, we see a total victory for Jesus by the end of Rev. 19:17-21  - believers have been "raptured" & the unbelievers slain. As I understand your teaching, you believe that great slaughter - "the feast of the fowls" was Ezekiel's Gog-Magog war & defeat... No-one is left on earth. No mention of "tribulation survivors."  Though presumably you believe that 1/3 of Jews in Judaea will survive that slaughter, believe in Jesus, & enter the millennium. That is not taught here. 

Alan Replied:

The scriptures clearly stated and I clearly stated that the, ‘... Beast, the False Prophet and the armies of the Beast was destroyed.’ Nobody escapes from the battle in Revelation 19:11-21 that was involved, Gog, Magog, and the countries allied with them, which is very clear. My friend, there are other countries of the world than God, Magog, and their allies.

I never stated, nor do the scriptures state, that, ‘No-one is left on earth,’ is left. I did not even insinuate that and a miss-representation of this lesson, and, quite frankly, you deliberately twisted my words in order to try and prove I was in error. The lesson in Revelation 20: 4-6 was going to deal with that. Your miss-representation is a lie.

Covenanter wrote:

As we move into Rev. 20, there are no nations to be deceived by Satan. They have been totally slain. The population of earth will be only Christian Jews. Yet after that glorious & peaceful millennium, the Gog-Magog war & defeat again takes place. Rev. 20:7-10 

Alan replied:

Again, you miss-represent the conclusion of the battle and, even before I mention who is left on the earth to enter the Millennium and then the battle of Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:8-10, you purposely put words in my explanation of the scriptures that are not there. I am first of all appalled, then  shocked, and because of your lies you are trying to harm this lesson. If you continue with you miss-representation, than I will not respond to any more of your questions or comments. 

And bear in mind that the double harvest took place in Rev. 14:14-20 

Alan replied:

Let me comment on the current section please and take care of the miss-representation that you wrote.

Covenanter wrote:

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev. 14:6-7 

 I suggest you think again about your interpretation. Think "reiteration." 

 Alan replied:

I suggest you let me finish the lesson. My interpretation is entirely correct  and was miss-represented by you: your interpretation  is totally incorrect 

 

 

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There are many differences that show it is two different events, and not a reiteration of the same event.

Chapter 19:11-16 - Jesus arrives on a white horse to the site of the battle

19:20- The Beast and False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire (These are separate individuals, they are not Satan and they are not in the bottomless pit)

19:21 - Jesus, from His horse, destroys the remaining army with His words.

Chapter 20:2-3 - Satan is chained up into the bottomless pit. (He wasn't imprisoned or cast into the Lake of Fire in chapter 19, so how can this be a reiteration? It's not - this is a continuation of events.) And here we wait for the next installment of lessons. However, to show the differences I'll jump ahead:

20:7 - Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit 

20:9 -  God (not Jesus) sends fire from Heaven (not while sitting on a horse at the site of the battle) to destroy the remaining armies.

20:10 - The Devil/Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire where he joins the Beast and False Prophet (who had not been released as Satan had) and this time there will be no release for him: "...and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

 

 

 

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Li Bai Jia,

Yea and Amen! Thank you very much for your observation and scriptual insight. You brought out some very good scriptual differnences between the Battle of Revelation 19:11-21 and the Battle of Revelation 21:7-10. Great!

Brethren,

I do want to thank those brethren that have offered scriptual insight and therefore a good discussion to this thread. If here are any other points that need to discuss please let me know.

The next lesson, Refelation 20:1-3 will be uploaded soon!

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Special Note.

I need to break the lesson in Revelation 20:1-6 in two parts in order to clearly present the Millennial Reign of Christ more adequately. In the Revelation 20:4-6 study we broadly  discuss the classes of people, and nations, who will enter into the Millennial Kingdom.

Revelation 20:1-3, “Satan Bound.”

Verse 1, And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Verse 2, And he laid hold on the dragon that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Verse 3, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

“... an angel come down from heaven, ...’

The angel is the Lord Jesus. Revelation 1:18, “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.” Only the Lord Jesus has the keys of hell and death.

And, the Lord Jesus is the same angel in Revelation 9:1 and 2 that takes the key of the bottomless pit, and opens it, in order to set loose the demonic locusts upon the earth.

 ‘...having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.’

The Lord Jesus does not say a word in this passage of scripture. He takes the ‘key,’ to the bottomless pit, “hell and death,’ He takes a ‘great chain.’ in His hands. The ‘great chain,’ is not necessarily the, ‘chains of darkness,’ referred to 2 Peter2:4 and Jude 6. Although it could be.

2 Peter 2:4, “For is God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.” 2 Peter 2:4 in conjunction with 2 Peter 2:4 please read Jude 6. These chains are, ‘chains of darkness,’ whereas the chain in the hands of the Lord Jesus, is a special, ‘great chain.’

If any of the brethren would give some insight, or discussion, on this matter please do so.

The Lord Jesus uses His own two hands to physically hold this, ‘great chain,’ in His own two hands. The Lord Jesus could use His mouth to speak the word: but the scriptures do not tell us that He said a word. The Lord Jesus is God in the flesh. He can use His hands to fulfill His will, or His feet like any other man uses the members of his body to accomplish a task.

As an example. In John 9 the Lord Jesus healed a blind man with clay made of spittle. The Lord Jesus spit on the ground, then He stooped to the ground and made clay of the spittle, and then anointed the eyes of the blind man and told the blind man to wash at the pool of Siloam. The Lord Jesus, like a man: spit, stooped, and used His hands to make clay, and then used His hands to rub the clay on the man’s eyes. All without saying a word He healed the man. The only words that the Lord Jesus used was to tell the man where to wash.

‘... the Devil,...’

The order of names is the same as written in Revelation 12:9. The names given the Devil are a definite reference to his character: Dragon is a reference to his cruelty, Serpent is a reference to his guile and cunning treachery, Devil is a reference to his deceptive abilities and the tempter of men, Satan means opponent; the enemy of God, Jesus, The Bible, Righteousness, Holiness, Faithful Preachers, and Saints.

May we remember the admonition of King Solomon concerning our character, ‘our name.’ “A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favor rather than silver and gold.” Proverbs 22:1

‘...cast him into the bottomless pit...’

Please take special notice. The Lord Jesus does not speak a word. Although the Lord Jesus could just speak the word to bind Satan, He does not. The Lord Jesus takes the Devil in His own two hands, and bodily throws him into the bottomless pit. Again, the Lord Jesus, God in the flesh, uses His hands to fulfill a task as any other man would.

‘... that he should deceive the nations no more...’

The primary object of Satan is to deceive. Satan deceived Eve into eating the forbidden fruit in order to cause man to dis-obey God, die, and spend eternity in hell. Satan hates God and does not want man to obey Him. Satan, and his devils (demons), primary arena of deception is ‘religion.’ The ministers of the devil cause people to not get saved and then they denounce, slander, find fault with, and malign those true men of God who preach and teach the truth.

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that brought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. ” 2 Peter 2:1. One of the duties of a Man of God is to teach the truth and denounce heresy. Jude 3 & 4 are still applicable in these last days. These false teachers, in these last days, are now even among the independent Baptist churches. Satan deceives men through religion. The various false religions, false doctrines, and false Bibles of the world are deceiving men and women about the literal one thousand year reign of the Lord Jesus as revealed in the scriptures.

‘... till the thousand years should be fulfilled...’

For a literal one thousand years Satan will be sealed in the bottomless pit. The 1000 years is no way symbolic, figurative, or any other manner, not literal. God will fulfill His word as the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostle John to write.

“... after that...”

This is a direct, and irrefutable, reference to the 1000 millennial reign of Christ in verse 4-6. After the one thousand reign of the Lord Jesus on His throne in Jerusalem Satan will be let out of the bottomless pit, released of his chain, and deceive the nations once again with his deceitful religious lies.

 

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