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Alan

Revelation chapter 19-22 Study.

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​That comes from one I have reported many times for personal attacks & lack of respect. 

-----------------

Regarding quoting - you will see from the "Everlasting Covenant" thread that it failed disastrously for me in a very long post. (Long because I was quoting Bro. Scott.)  I had to go back & find my post, copy it into my word processor & then copy into my reply. I have complained regularly to @BroMatt but had no replies. 

Yep it does.

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Thank you for your question as I have been in deep thought and prayer what to do once this study is concluded.

Alan

​I would think any, or eventually all, of those studies could be beneficial.

Thank you for this study and your efforts to keep it on track and to not allow it to become derailed.

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As I said a couple of times previously, and as DaveW wrote, the scriptures plainly state that the Lord Jesus comes back as a, "thief." A thief comes in total secrecy and only until he has left with the valuables does any body know he was there.  Thank you DaveW.

As I wrote previoulsy, in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 states, "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

In order to explain the disappearance (in the Rapture), the Anti-Christ will lie to the peoples of this earth why millions of people disapprered. The peoples of this world will believe the lie of the Anti-Christ. The Rapture, even after it occurs, will be a secret from the peoples of this world. God will allow the lie to be believed due to the ungodly sins of the peoples of this world. 

Reading 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:4 would really help your understanding of the proper way to see the thief view:

 

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
And it continues into chapter 5 -
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then *sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

*Sounds like they hear the 'thief' to me. 

 
 
Edited by Genevanpreacher

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Would anybody like to bring out any other comments on the, "thief" aspect of the Coming of Christ as spoken by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4.

Or, can anybody think of a biblical illustration of a thief that may be applicable to this situation? Let us try and just keep any comments or illustrations in this matter that may shed light on this subject and not chase too many rabbits.

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Only that the verses quoted above - and particularly the asterisk marked point - only supports the idea that it will not be known UNTIL THE ACTUAL EVENT.

Even a woman with child as used in the passage, knowns it is coming but not WHEN until it actually happens.

So yes, that passage does indeed help us to have a proper understanding of the theif concept - that the theif is not known until he exercises his craft.

Exactly what you and I  have already said, and what the Bible teaches.

Secret before, results seen afterwards.

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DaveW,

I'm in perfect agreement. Thank you John Young for your agreement with DaveW also and your help in this study.

Brethren,

Now, let's get back with the discussion on the last lesson, Revelation 22:14 and 15, "The Tree of Life," in verse 14 and the listing of the ungodly attributes of the lost (and the flesh), in verse 15. Any further thoughts, or areas of discussion, on the items that I pointed out in these two verses?

Additional Prophetical Information on "Dogs."

One thing that I would like to add to my comments on "dogs,"  (false teachers of false doctrines) on 2 Peter 2:1-22.

When the Lord Jesus was on the cross of Calvary, the lost relgious leaders of Israel, (the Pharisees, the scribes and elders), derided and mocked the Lord Jesus. Since the false teachers could not find fault with the Lord Jesus they derided Him in order to belittle and discredit Him in front of others. "They return at evening: they make a noise like a dog, and go round about the city. Behold, they belch out with mouth: swords are in their lips: for who, say they, doth hear." Psalm 59:6 & 7. The criticism of false teachers against the the Lord Jesus, and any man of God, has never changed. Their criticisms are like the belching of a dog: never ceasing, always complaining and finding fault and yapping at every opportunity.

This was in fulfilment of the prophecy of Psalm 22:1-20 In Psalm 22: 16 and 20 these false teachers are referred to as, "strong bulls of Bashan," and, " a roaring lion," and finally, "dogs," exactly as we see in 2 Peter 2 refers to them.

The, "strong bulls of Bashan, " and the, "roaring lion," is directly correlated to the, "brute beasts," in 2 Peter 2:12

"For dogs, have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet." Psalm 22:16

"Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog." Psalm 22:20

Therefore, if a saint wants to know more about, "false teachers," a close look at Psalm 22 and 2 Peter 2 will help enlighten the eyes of their understanding.

Alan

 

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Only that the verses quoted above - and particularly the asterisk marked point - only supports the idea that it will not be known UNTIL THE ACTUAL EVENT.

Even a woman with child as used in the passage, knowns it is coming but not WHEN until it actually happens.

So yes, that passage does indeed help us to have a proper understanding of the theif concept - that the theif is not known until he exercises his craft.

Exactly what you and I  have already said, and what the Bible teaches.

Secret before, results seen afterwards.

If this is what you have been saying, and I disagree it is, why would there be a lie to cover what happened?

Sudden destruction?

They will know it is Jesus.

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As I mentioned before, the Coming of Christ is like the translation of Enoch. After God took him into heaven without dying the scriptures plainly states that the people behind did not know  what happened.

Thus, when the Lord comes for the church (only the saved folks, a lot of folks attending some churches are not saved), the world will not know what happened and the anti-Christ will tell a lie; and that lie will be believed. Then the 7 Year Tribulation starts as recorded in Revelation 6-19

Edited by Alan
grammer & spelling

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As I mentioned before, the Coming of Christ is like the tranlsation of Enoch. After God took him into heaven with out dying the scriptures plainly states that the people behind did not know  what happened.

Thus, when the Lord comes for the church (only the saved folks, a lot of folks attending some church are not saved), the world will not know what happened and the anti-christ will tell a lie; and that lie will be believed. Then the 7 Year Tribulation starts as recorded in Revelation 6-19

Most pre-trib rapture teachers/preachers say there will be a large number of people who know what happened. Typically they claim it will be those who were churched but unsaved and those who had heard of the rapture prior to the event.

Most every book I've read and every movie I've seen on this topic from the pre-trib rapture position take this view too.

At the same time, most also teach the anti-christ will put forth a convincing lie what happened.

Of course, most of these assume multiple millions will be raptured but the only way such numbers could be true is if they count everyone who calls themselves a Christian being raptured; including Catholics, Mormons and all church members of every denomination. Either that or there would have to be hundreds of millions of under the radar Christians that will be raptured but even tho they are under cover Christians, somehow folks will know they were Christians (??).

There are actually a lot of odd and conflicting teachings out there on this.

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Brethren,

In order to keep on the proper flow of this study, and not get side-tracked, let us just comment on the current lesson and not dwell on previous lessons as we are just re-hashing previous discussions. The exception to this polite reminder is to new individuals who have not commented on previous lessons. As we do have a lot of viewers who have not commented so far, I just want you to know that we do welcome your comments and or areas of discussion. 

I am excited as we near the conclusion of this study in Revelation chapter 19-22. Only three more lessons to go! Thus far it I have personally enjoyed the study, the questions, the discussions and I am expecting the study to end on an enjoyable note among the brethren. I want to thank all of you.

 

Alan

 

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As I mentioned before, the Coming of Christ is like the tranlsation of Enoch. After God took him into heaven with out dying the scriptures plainly states that the people behind did not know  what happened.

Thus, when the Lord comes for the church (only the saved folks, a lot of folks attending some church are not saved), the world will not know what happened and the anti-christ will tell a lie; and that lie will be believed. Then the 7 Year Tribulation starts as recorded in Revelation 6-19

As I have posted the above verses from 1 Thessalonians, and you seem to 'push it aside', what about these verses from 2 Thessalonians which explain the "sudden destruction" that "commeth upon them" :

 

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Edited by Genevanpreacher

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We are have already discussed this point of the Coming of Christ a few times and both of us (apparently), are not going to change our beliefs so in my opinion all we are doing is wasting time and preventing others viewers from discussing topics they deem more important.

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We are have already discussed this point of the Coming of Christ a few times and both of us (apparently), are not going to change our beliefs so in my opinion all we are doing is wasting time and preventing others viewers from discussing topics they deem more important.

So you don't know an answer? Or u just wanna move on?

I do not always have time to read every post, so if you have answered this set of verses before - sorry. It seems important to me. As the teaching you have espoused seems to hinge on many views of how a verse is found in context.

By the way - I am not trying to change your beliefs, I am trying to show your beliefs as not true to God's word to others who want scriptural support for real beliefs.

Just as you are about me.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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Genevanpreacher,

I have already explained the scriptual position, and correct belief,of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ as depicted 1 Thessalonians 5:13-18 and Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 1:7. To believe otherwise in contrary to scripture and heretical. You have not shown one verse that proves otherwise.

To my very patient viewers. Please do not let the posts of Genevanpreacher, and on previous occasions, Covenanter, prevent you from enjoying this study.  Due to his unscriptual beliefs he (they) have espoused they are attempting to derail the conclusion of this thread. So, please bear with me as we discuss the remaining three lessons.

One of the reasons why God allows false teachers in the churches, and on good independent Baptist forums, is for the student of scripture to know truth from error and the manifestation of false teachers. The Apostle Paul wrote, "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."  1 Corinthians 11:19 In this case, through the correct, and scriptural teaching of this study, we have discovered the heretical beliefs of: the Book of Revelation being symbolic, or, allegorical, and the a-millennial belief is heretical.

Also, we have scripturally proved that the Judgment Seat of Christ is before Revelation chapter 5, the Book of Revelation is literal, the time of Jacob's Trouble is a literal 7 year Tribulation Period, and the literal 1,000 Year Reign of Christ.

Edited by Alan
spelling

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So you don't know an answer? Or u just wanna move on?

I do not always have time to read every post, so if you have answered this set of verses before - sorry. It seems important to me. As the teaching you have espoused seems to hinge on many views of how a verse is found in context.

By the way - I am not trying to change your beliefs, I am trying to show your beliefs as not true to God's word to others who want scriptural support for real beliefs.

Just as you are about me.

Genevanpreacher,

I have already explained the scriptual position, and correct belief,of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ as depicted 1 Thessalonians 5:13-18 and Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 1:7. To believe otherwise in contrary to scripture and heretical. You have not shown one verse that proves otherwise.

I agree with Russ (GM) in that you CLAIM to hold a Scriptural position & are extremely offensive in dismissing those who teach other Biblical positions (such as Covenant Theology, & Amillennialism) as "dogs." You send courteous PMs to us, & then public denounce us. 

And NO! You have not "explained the  scriptural position, and correct belief,of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ" but given your opinion, which is certainly open to challenge by the "Bereans" on the forum. 

 

 

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Brethren,

The above posts by Genevanpreacher and Covenanter are an attempt to derail this study and should be ignored.

The next lesson will be upoaded in a day or two.

I want to express my sincere thanks to the many viewers that have patiently stood behind me and the study.

Alan

 

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Why does there have to be a "lie" from the AntiChrist when "every eye shall see him" in the clouds? All the tribes of the earth will be hiding from him. Sounds like they will see him, does it not?

Because these are two events. They will lie about the rapture but they will not be able to lie about the returning.

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DaveW,

Thank you very much. I immensely appreciate your support, and the support of other friends, at this time. "A friend loveth at all times, and a brother is born for adversity." Proverbs 17:17

John Young,

You are exactly right. Thank you very much for your observation concerning how the anti-Christ will lie about the rapture but will not be able to lie about the return of Christ in Revelation 19:11-21 Due to the rapture, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, being secret, 'like a thief, ' and the Coming of Christ, Revelation 1:7 &19:11-21, 'every eye shall see him,' being two seperate events: the results and the action are different also.

If there is any other observation that you want to discuss in the last lesson, or some other lesson  that you want to comment on, all of us would appreciate your thoughts.

Alan 

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When Jesus came the 1st time, it was hard for the Pharisees and Scribes to recognize Him from the glimpses that the prophets had. They came up with the idea of Messiah son of Joseph and Messiah son of David.

Like the Pharisees and Scribes we only have glimpses from the prophets about Jesus second return. In modern times some Christians see two 2nd comings. One (2a) where Jesus rides on a cloud, as in like manner of how he left, and doesn't fully return to the earth. The other one (2b) where Jesus rides his white horse and does come fully to earth. 2a is an escape of wrath for believers (mostly grafted in gentiles), while 2b is a rescue for the remaining believers (mostly grafted in Jews) and hell for wearers of 666. The majority of Christians see only one return without explaining Jesus on a cloud and Jesus on a horse. 

 

 

 

 

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Genevanpreacher,

I have already explained the scriptual position, and correct belief,of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ as depicted *1 Thessalonians 5:13-18 and Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 1:7. To believe otherwise in contrary to scripture and heretical. You have not shown one verse that proves otherwise.

To my very patient viewers. Please do not let the posts of Genevanpreacher, and on previous occasions, Covenanter, prevent you from enjoying this study.  **Due to his unscriptual beliefs he (they) have espoused they are attempting to derail the conclusion of this thread. So, please bear with me as we discuss the remaining three lessons.

One of the reasons why God allows false teachers in the churches, and on good independent Baptist forums, is for the ***student of scripture to know truth from error and the manifestation of false teachers. The Apostle Paul wrote, "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."  1 Corinthians 11:19 ****In this case, through the correct, and scriptual teaching of this study, we have discovered the heretical beliefs of: the Book of Revelation being symbolic, or, allegorical, and the a-millenial belief is heretical.

Also, *****we have scriptually proved that the Judgement Seat of Christ is before Revelation 5, the Book of Revelation is literal, the time of Jacob's Trouble is a literal 7 year Tribulation Period and the literal 1,000 Year Reign of Christ.

* Obviously a mistake here, what verses are you actually meaning.

** Using verses and not 'utilizing teachings of men' is now considered "private interpretation".

*** You are completely correct in this statement! Any man of God who studies the scriptures themselves will know these things whether they be false or true.

**** I am so glad you think you 'have it all down and correct' brother. It must be nice to be that way.

***** You have not. There that was a simple statement of truth.

 

 

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