Some good advice

[ThePilgrim]

Some very good advice, but I think the hawks will just cover their ears and carry on with their wars.

 

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2015/02/prepare-for-full-scale-war-says-former.html

[John81]

Ukraine has been constantly putting forth lies and shouting dire warnings in an attempt to get the West to directly intervene with billions of dollars/Euros, massive tons of weapons and ammunition, and even direct military involvement from the West.

Sadly, the West (leaders and the media) have either given support to some of these lies or been silent regarding them.

The fact is, America has spy satellites in constant operation over the area and if any of the wild claims of Russian troops, columns of Russian tanks, masses of Russian artillery and such were in operation there Obama would release those images to the media, take them to the UN and demand immediate action against Russia.

That none of this has happened is itself proof that the continued claims coming out of Ukraine are lies proving these lying nazis can't be trusted.

[Invicta]

The rebels must have got their arms from somewhere.  

[ThePilgrim]

They had a lot of arms in armories when this fiasco first started.  They get a lot of weapons and ammo from the Ukrops (as the people in the Dombas call those in Kiev's army).  The Ukrops fortunately leave a lot of materiel and weapons behind when they loose a battle, both good and damaged.  The Donbas malitia  have huge warehouses where they take damaged equipment for repair and restoration . . . . they have no shortage of spare parts.  This includes BMPs, tanks, artillery, and any other equipment used by the military of Kiev.  As an example a huge amount of materiel was taken in the latest huge military mistake made by Kiev in the Debaltsevo cauldron (in the western parlance it would be the Debaltsevo encirclement).  

I have no doubt they get some small amount of assistance in supplies from the Russians.  They also may get some military advise from the Russians . . . . but then what would you expect, the people of the Donbas are for the most part Russian speaking and Russian Orthodox Christians.  As far as troops and the heavy stuff coming from Russia that is western propaganda coming mostly from the U.S. State Department.  There no doubt is propaganda coming from both sides, but don't you think if the Russian tanks that the West has claimed are swarming into Ukraine they would have no shortage of satellite images to show us.  There have been absolutely none that have been shown to be genuine. 

That's enough for one post, I think.   If any would like me give the sources for all I have said, I can post the links.

 

[Alan]

Russia is using the Ukranian seperatists to fight their battle to obtain Ukraine. As much as I am not for the government of Ukraine, to have the communust government, under a proxy Seperaist govennment, is not good for America or democracy. The worst Ukranian govenment is far better then the best Russian government.

Both the Ukraine and Russia government are lying for ther own reasons. But, it is for the good of democracy to give the Ukranian government the military equpment needed to fight.

Putin is being bold in his actions due to the spineless, and ineffective, policies of Obama. 

 

[ThePilgrim]

Russia is using the Ukranian seperatists to fight their battle to obtain Ukraine. As much as I am not for the government of Ukraine, to have the communust government, under a proxy Seperaist govennment, is not good for America or democracy. The worst Ukranian govenment is far better then the best Russian government.

Both the Ukraine and Russia government are lying for ther own reasons. But, it is for the good of democracy to give the Ukranian government the military equpment needed to fight.

Putin is being bold in his actions due to the spineless, and ineffective, policies of Obama. 

 

​Well the fact of the matter is that Russia does not want Ukraine.  Ukraine is an economic basket case that at the moment the E.U. banks don't want.  What Nato and it's boss the U.S. wants is more military bases on the periphery of Russia and the U.S. is willing to use the Nazis in Kiev to fight the Donbas Ukrainians to the last Ukranian.  

Russia has all the economic problems it can handle and they don't want the the Ukraine.  Propaganda is the most important job our state department does.  It keeps the MSM up on the State Departments latest versions of the "truth" that it wishes me and you to know.  

As far as the truth goes listen to this guy: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=90f_1424640984

If Satan is the father of lies then this guy is one of his favorite sons.

 

[Alan]

Pilgram,

I went to the www.liveleak site but they wanted me to register. I normally do not register on sites such like liveleak. I do not trust the site for accurate and unbiased opinion.

I understand that Russia has a lot of economic problems, that Ukraine is a economic problem, and our State Department only lets us know what they want us to know.

Russia wants Ukraine. Putin is deceiving, democracy hating, communist thug. It is in the best interest of democracy, and America's interest, that Ukraine should get the military hardware needed to defend its territory.

It is Ukrainian territory not Russion territory. It would also help the discussion somewhat if you would refrain from calling the Ukranian govenment 'Nazi's.'

[DaveW]

Russia wants control of the pipeline. The yanks don't want them to control it.

It is about economic leverage, not real estate.

[John81]

Russia doesn't want Ukraine. If they had wanted it, they could have taken it long ago. What Russia wants is the security of their naval base in Crimea, safety for their people in eastern Ukraine, good relations with a legitimate Ukrainian government, and for NATO to stay out of Ukraine. Were we in Russia's place we would consider all these things to be reasonable.

DaveW hits upon the main aspect, that being economic matters. The legally and democratically elected president of Ukraine considered an economic deal offered by the EU and one offered by Russia and chose to accept the Russian proposal. This infuriated the EU (especially Germany) and America which has this odd idea that democratic elections are supposed to provide leaders willing to go their way.

In an effort to stop the trade deal between Ukraine and Russia, with the intent of a new government signing a trade deal with the EU, America and the EU sent agents into Ukraine which fomented revolt, giving material aid to the Nazis, anarchists and anti-Semitics to overthrow the democratically elected president of Ukraine. Their plan didn't go as they desired and Russia didn't hide on the sidelines as they had hoped. Thus the mess we have today.

It's interesting that not a single previous American president, whether Democrat or Republican, ever considered Ukraine to be of any vital American interest. It's also interesting to note that since Ukraine is next to Russia, each American president considered matters between Ukraine and Russia to be their business, not ours.

It wasn't until Obama and American Leftists decided they hated Putin that Ukraine was suddenly declared to be of some vital importance. Unfortunately for America, there are plenty of neo-con Republican war hawks all too willing to side with the Leftists and Obama in just about any possible war with just about anyone.

[ThePilgrim]

Pilgram,
It would also help the discussion somewhat if you would refrain from calling the Ukranian govenment 'Nazi's.'

You do not have to register at Liveleaks to access it's material.  You do however have to register to be allowed to comment on the material.

​http://www.globalresearch.ca/whos-who-in-ukraines-new-semi-fascist-government-meet-the-people-the-u-s-and-eu-are-supporting/5372422

[ThePilgrim]

From James Madison:

"Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.

War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.

In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people.

The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."

[Alan]

John 81,

Because Russia needs a naval base they take over Crimea!!!!!! What Justification!!!!!!! What hypcritial hypocrisy.

The Ukraine people voted, and got, a pro-democratic governent and Crimea is, or was, a part of Ukraine. Russia, through the Seperatists, military take it over and you try and justify it? The day we arm Ukraine will be the day Russia may take away the Russian troops and leave the fighting to the Seperatists.

There is a moral and legal right and worng. Russia is wrong and nor matter how we do not like the Ukrainian govenment, they are right. All they are asking is for militaty hardware to defend themselves.  They are not asking for troops. 

The Russian Government is a Communist war mongering government with a blantant liar, Putin,as its head. And, like the Vietnam War (which I was in), they, the Communists, are looking for 'fellow travelers' to help them along in their killing of whoever gets in their way. The Ukranian crisis is a test, orchestrated by Putin, to see if he can take over whatever territory he can before freedom loving democratic countries stop him. If you do not know aht a 'fellow traveler' is than I would suggest to read up on it.

The 'fellow travelers' during the Vietnam War were duped church leaders, draft dodgers, Hollywood movie stars, liberals, misguided church members, drug duped Army deserters, and 'peace' loving hippies. God keeps good records.

[Alan]

John 81,

I have a personal high regard for James Madison, and our founding fathers. I understand the quote and its meaning. It is my personal opinion that you are mis-applying the quote by Madison and that it it irrevelant to this discussion.

 

 

[John81]

The point is, neither Ukraine nor Crimea are of any vital interest to America. Both are right on Russia's porch. The Crimea has been Russian since Catherine the Great. When the Soviet Union dissolved Russia was promised their Crimean naval base would forever remain theirs. When the legitimate government of Ukraine was overthrown, the Nazi-backed government which took over threatened to take over the Russian naval base and expel Russia. Russia took quick actions to secure their naval base just as any other nation would have done in such a situation.

If the American base at Gitmo came under threat from a new Cuban government America would take swift action to protect and retain that base (hopefully, even with Obama in office that would happen).

The people of Crimea, who are mostly Russian or with strong ties to Russia, voted to leave Ukraine. I've no more problem with that than I do those who voted to leave Yugoslavia or with the Scots voting and choosing to stay in the UK.

The Russian government isn't communist, it's nationalist, which is one of the reasons Obama and the Left hate Russia and Putin now. When Russia was communist, the Left loved Russia, but the Left hates nationalists so now they hate Russia.

The idea Putin wants to reform the Soviet Union or take over countries comes from the Leftist media. Unfortunately, war mongering neo-cons have willingly accepted this false narrative as they can further their agenda with it too. Russia could easily and quickly conquer Ukraine if they wanted to and had they wanted to they would have already done so when the time was convenient. The fact is, the cost of conquering Ukraine, holding Ukraine, maintaining Ukraine, would be far too costly both in the short term and long term while providing no measurable benefits to Russia.

Every Cold War president agreed Ukraine was of no vital American interest and it's still that way today.

Putin supports a traditional Russia, a Christian Russia (albeit Russian Orthodox), and policies which take into consideration what's actually best for Russia (nationalism), which is why he enacted laws against the advances of the homosexual agenda in Russia, all of which the Left hates. In many ways, Putin is the Russian Reagan, attempting to instill a positive national spirit, build the economy, establish itself on the world stage, after years of problems following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, as Reagan did following the troubled years following the Vietnam War, Watergate/Nixon impeachment and resignation, and the messes from presidents Ford and Carter.

All nations are of this world, none is righteous, all look out for their own self-interests or risk their own destruction by failing to do so. It's only the desire for globalization that makes what's actually a minor thing in Ukraine be brought up as needful of worldwide attention.

The devil will eventually have his way and bring about globalization and for several decades now it's been the Western democracies who have been most dogmatic at pushing the globalization agenda, not the commies, radical Muslims, lone dictators or kings.

(Regarding the Madison quote, that was Pilgrim which posted that good quote which speaks to the broader picture without speaking directly to the specific Ukraine issue)

[Invicta]

 

 

 

Putin is terrified of NATO coming to another of Russia's borders.  When The cold war ended, Russia was assured that NATO would not extend into the former Soviet states.  That assurance was broken.  

The previous Ukrainian president promised to consider the EU, but Russia put him to change his mind and to keep their alignment with Russia.  Most of the people wanted closer ties with the EU and so overthrew the president. Russia then panicked on took back the Crimea.

I was given to Unkraine by Kruschev for some reason or another.

The West then put sanctions on Russia, instead of speaking to him.  Sanctions  never work, and in this case just riled Putin.  It has probably caused more problems to us as a number of our farmers have gone out of business as Russia now does not buy their produce.