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pcoble1

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I am a new member. I was an Independent Baptist for many years. Very involved, bus ministry, proper dress, teacher. Now, the church has become so legalistic I had to write a book on my experiences. Breaking the Bondage from Independent Baptist, Phil COBle. Amazon. If you would like to discuss this in the future you can send me a reply. I would like to be convinced that I am wrong. In my book I explain my prOBlems. I know this, I am saved!

I am free in Christ. 

Edited by pcoble1

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Well Phil, speaking for myself I will not buy your book. You sound like someone who has an axe to grind. I seriousely doubt that you have the qualifications to paint all Independent Baptists with such a broad brush. You write like you think Independent Baptist is a denomination or association and all operate in the same manner.

 

The title of your book speaks volumes regarding your bitterness and anger, which has no place in the life of a Christian. I would suggest that a better avenue would be to take your prOBlem to the Lord, rather than sowing discord among those you once called brother.

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If a person is saved he is free in Christ in any environment. Such as; jail, a legalistic Baptist Church, a Roman Catholic Church, a Mormon Temple or a Buddhist Monastery.

 

I started to attend an Independent Baptist Church years ago and it was one of the best spiritual decisions the Lord ever led me to make. The worst legalistic independent Baptist Chruch is far, far better than any denominational church or any other type of chuch in this Laodicean Age.

 

The Apostle Paul was free in every jail cell he ever sat in.

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If a person is saved he is free in Christ in any environment. Such as; jail, a legalistic Baptist Church, a Roman Catholic Church, a Mormon Temple or a Buddhist Monastery.

 

I started to attend an Independent Baptist Church years ago and it was one of the best spiritual decisions the Lord ever led me to make. The worst legalistic independent Baptist Chruch is far, far better than any denominational church or any other type of chuch in this Laodicean Age.

 

The Apostle Paul was free in every jail cell he ever sat in.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the worst legalistic IFB church is better than all other non-IFB churches. There are a few IFB churches which are virtually all legalistic, all about outward appearance and conformity, with very little or not grace, no transformation of heart and mind, no growth in holiness, where the congregation is often stern and self-righteous. Such isn't a good place to be.

 

At the same time, there are scattered about some good independent churches, which are scripturally sound, preaching biblical salvation and pursuit of holiness.

 

There are even a few denominational churches that would be better to attend than an extremely legalistic church of any name.

 

Back in the 90s myself and two other men left an IFB church after a new pastor came in and took the church on a hard left turn. We attempted to speak with the pastor about the matters, at which point he would "listen" dismissively (even rolling his eyes a couple times) and then proceeded to tell us he was taking the church in that leftward way and those who didn't like it could leave.

 

After visiting several other churches we settled upon a denominational church with a very old pastor who only preached the Word, nothing of a denominational nature, and also held a very good men's Bible study. We were only there for about three months before we each moved away and were able to find a good IFB church at our new locations.

 

Sadly, there are several IFB churches in this general area now which are no longer worth attending. What has plagued other churches has now infected a growing number of IFB churches. I pray for those which have gone astray and praise God for those holding true to His Word. It's so important to pray for our pastors!

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I am a new member. I was an Independent Baptist for many years. Very involved, bus ministry, proper dress, teacher. Now, the church has become so legalistic I had to write a book on my experiences. Breaking the Bondage from Independent Baptist, Phil COBle. Amazon. If you would like to discuss this in the future you can send me a reply. I would like to be convinced that I am wrong. In my book I explain my prOBlems. I know this, I am saved!

I am free in Christ. 

 

I read what Amazon had for a sample.

I see from it that you state there are 'real' IFB, and one's 'claiming' to be.

That has always existed.

 

So what is new in your thinking?

 

Liberality, the bad kind, has always been around. That doesn't mean

you can't be wise enough to find a good one.

 

If looking for an independent Baptist form of teaching and preaching, what

in your opinion constitutes a 'freedom' type of Baptist church?

 

Are you saying some Baptists teach other modes of salvation?

 

I am curious if you found that your 'type' of church is weak on

what actually saves you. As I have experienced, when you get

out of the 'independent' Baptists that deny 'clean living', you get

into one's that are accepting of false teachings relating to 'how'

one really 'incorporates' a 'new spirit' into an 'old lifestyle'.

 

To be specific, baptism.

 

Most so-called 'independent' churches that deny the

Baptist name, really lean toward baptismal regeneration. you know,

getting your sins washed away in the water of baptism.

 

Do they or you have a perverted view of, as example, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:37, 22:16, and 1 Peter 3:21?

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I understand everyone's point. Except for what Alan posted. Really, a legalistic church is better than what? I am not angry. I am just putting my personal story out there. I realize there are good IBC in America. In my location, most of them are what I spoke about. It is very dangerous to ignore the prOBlems. I believe in the Baptist doctrine. I believe more in the Word of God. I do use the KJV, I believe in reaching others and sowing the seed. I am not convinced that I must wear a tie and never miss a church service. If I did in every IBC I ever was a part of, guilt was poured out like water. I am not advertising my book. I am not making any money on it. I just want people to be informed. 

On another note, If you are angry, feel like your way is the only way, you fall into the category I was speaking of.

Are you saying some Baptists teach other modes of salvation? Yes to that question. Saved by grace, going to Heaven, but work or have guilt preached to you. That is what I have experienced. If you don't like what has happened in the Independent Baptist Church, change it. Help others realize that their are good church's. Where I am at, not so much. North Carolina

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I understand everyone's point. Except for what Alan posted. Really, a legalistic church is better than what? I am not angry. I am just putting my personal story out there. I realize there are good IBC in America. In my location, most of them are what I spoke about. It is very dangerous to ignore the prOBlems. I believe in the Baptist doctrine. I believe more in the Word of God. I do use the KJV, I believe in reaching others and sowing the seed. I am not convinced that I must wear a tie and never miss a church service. If I did in every IBC I ever was a part of, guilt was poured out like water. I am not advertising my book. I am not making any money on it. I just want people to be informed. 

On another note, If you are angry, feel like your way is the only way, you fall into the category I was speaking of.

Are you saying some Baptists teach other modes of salvation? Yes to that question. Saved by grace, going to Heaven, but work or have guilt preached to you. That is what I have experienced. If you don't like what has happened in the Independent Baptist Church, change it. Help others realize that their are good church's. Where I am at, not so much. North Carolina

You raise some good points which do need to be addressed in some churches. This is a better worded post than your first one as you at least acknowledge there are some good churches out there.

 

In this area, the IFB churches which have gone a bad direction have gone the way of liberalism rather than legalism. Still, just as one can't give the impression that all, or even most IFB churches are liberal, one can't rightly do the same with regards to the issue of legalism.

 

Our pastor did recently address the prOBlem of a few certain churches which say they believe in salvation by grace through faith but in practice it appears more works based. They continually tell others if they are not keeping certain rules or laws that must mean they aren't saved. One church even claimed any man wearing a colored shirt (non-white) to church was in sin. They went so far as to have several white shirts available so if any man did enter their church wearing a non-white shirt they could tell them they had to change shirts during their time there or leave.

 

I fully agree we need to address whatever prOBlems our church may have. Sometimes it's good to sound a warning about particular churches. However, we have to be careful not to condemn a whole set of churches, or members of such churches based upon what some do wrong.

 

I've been in and seen some churches take bad turns. I've attempted, in the churches I was attending at the time, to shine light upon the prOBlem with the aim of good correction.

 

Praise God, even when churches have gone bad, the Lord has always guided me to a good church home.

 

It's so important that we pray for our pastors, church leaders, the members and congregation. The world and the devil are eager to destroy our churches and we must be on guard and prayed up against such.

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John, you are pretty much right. You have expressed what I may have had a hard time doing. I want folks to open their eyes. I have been hurt so much by the legalistic church that I felt folks needed to hear my story to be aware of what is out there. Thanks for your comment.

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If you re-read my post I hope that you notice that it was not all inclusive, nor was it a doctrinal thesis, just a reminider that so many folks poke fun of Independent Baptist churches that it get ludicrous. so, I was being somewhat facetious.

 

OBviously I do not know exactly what PcOBle 1 has a prOBlem with but I do know that  a lot of times when a person does not like a preacher preaching against sin he calls the preacher, and church, "legalistic," "non loving," "Pharissic,"  etc.... you catch my drift? 

 

I have no intention in buying, or reading, a book that details an individuals hatred towards any church.

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Legalistic is the word used to battle convictions. There is nothing wrong with the word legalism. If you're on the right side of legalism then you have what we call standards. Usage of the word legalism today is nothing more than a rebellious spirit. If you would submit yourself biblically then it's more understandable. Don't let the flesh ruin other peoples set of standards. 

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Legalism can have serious ramifications and/or consequences. If a Church has set standards that they insist God requires, then they need Scripture to prove that God does indeed require it. If Scripture does not suppore a standard that the pastor says "God requires", then that is a
Pharisaical form of legalism. That type of legalism is unhealthy and unproductive.

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This reminds me of something in the Bible
 
Luke 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
 
His daddy had to go out and baby talk him. 

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John, that is hitting the nail on the head. That is exactly what I got caught up in. We had good preachers from around the country preach at our church. Back in the day, Curtis Hudson, Dr. Lee ROBinson, Carl Hatch. My pastor visited Indiana and everything went down hill after that. Changes, preaching style, standards, (not biblical standards) his opinion. A trip to Texas and back did me in. He took the church to a bondage level. If you showed up to a bus meeting without a tie, you got raked over the coals. Just saying. I left and went to two other churches. After being there for awhile I realized it was the same thing going on, just different ways. I even questioned about the guys wearing shorts. Pastor said it was OK. Before you would be dismissed from any church function. Independent is an understatement. It was still legalistic. There is so much that I have experienced. That is why I wrote the book. I Love the Lord, I am not angry, I believe in KJV, Soul winning, Bus Ministry, Godly standards, God honoring music. I just don't like the bondage so many preachers and churches place on it's members that does not come from God's Word. Example

No singing specials without being a member of the choir. (It did not matter that I was running sound board for choir and could not be in it)

No saying Amen if you are not living a perfect life.

White Shirt required if you go on the platform, not to mention a tie always.

Ladies must wear dresses, of course that is not a bad idea, but if you came in medical scrubs from work, you could not do

anything.

Hair, no facial hair, hair must not touch ears. 

Ladies could not have short hair.

Miss going out Soul winning, you were confronted and made to feel guilty.

Bible, if you had tabs, you were made fun of. You were told you did not know where the books of the bible were.

 

There are so many things I could write a book, wait....I did.

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John, that is hitting the nail on the head. That is exactly what I got caught up in. We had good preachers from around the country preach at our church. Back in the day, Curtis Hudson, Dr. Lee ROBinson, Carl Hatch. My pastor visited Indiana and everything went down hill after that. Changes, preaching style, standards, (not biblical standards) his opinion. A trip to Texas and back did me in. He took the church to a bondage level. If you showed up to a bus meeting without a tie, you got raked over the coals. Just saying. I left and went to two other churches. After being there for awhile I realized it was the same thing going on, just different ways. I even questioned about the guys wearing shorts. Pastor said it was OK. Before you would be dismissed from any church function. Independent is an understatement. It was still legalistic. There is so much that I have experienced. That is why I wrote the book. I Love the Lord, I am not angry, I believe in KJV, Soul winning, Bus Ministry, Godly standards, God honoring music. I just don't like the bondage so many preachers and churches place on it's members that does not come from God's Word. Example

No singing specials without being a member of the choir. (It did not matter that I was running sound board for choir and could not be in it)

No saying Amen if you are not living a perfect life.

White Shirt required if you go on the platform, not to mention a tie always.

Ladies must wear dresses, of course that is not a bad idea, but if you came in medical scrubs from work, you could not do

anything.

Hair, no facial hair, hair must not touch ears. 

Ladies could not have short hair.

Miss going out Soul winning, you were confronted and made to feel guilty.

Bible, if you had tabs, you were made fun of. You were told you did not know where the books of the bible were.

 

There are so many things I could write a book, wait....I did.

Sounds incredible to me. I never lived in North Carolina before. What region of N.C. is this?

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John, that is hitting the nail on the head. That is exactly what I got caught up in. We had good preachers from around the country preach at our church. Back in the day, Curtis Hudson, Dr. Lee ROBinson, Carl Hatch. My pastor visited Indiana and everything went down hill after that. Changes, preaching style, standards, (not biblical standards) his opinion. A trip to Texas and back did me in. He took the church to a bondage level. If you showed up to a bus meeting without a tie, you got raked over the coals. Just saying. I left and went to two other churches. After being there for awhile I realized it was the same thing going on, just different ways. I even questioned about the guys wearing shorts. Pastor said it was OK. Before you would be dismissed from any church function. Independent is an understatement. It was still legalistic. There is so much that I have experienced. That is why I wrote the book. I Love the Lord, I am not angry, I believe in KJV, Soul winning, Bus Ministry, Godly standards, God honoring music. I just don't like the bondage so many preachers and churches place on it's members that does not come from God's Word. Example

No singing specials without being a member of the choir. (It did not matter that I was running sound board for choir and could not be in it)

No saying Amen if you are not living a perfect life.

White Shirt required if you go on the platform, not to mention a tie always.

Ladies must wear dresses, of course that is not a bad idea, but if you came in medical scrubs from work, you could not do

anything.

Hair, no facial hair, hair must not touch ears. 

Ladies could not have short hair.

Miss going out Soul winning, you were confronted and made to feel guilty.

Bible, if you had tabs, you were made fun of. You were told you did not know where the books of the bible were.

 

There are so many things I could write a book, wait....I did.

I know of a couple people who attended such a church in Georgia or Alabama (I think it was near the line). They had many such rules and unhelpful, unloving ways of enforcing the rules. So long as one followed the rules, everyone put up a loving front, but let one step outside the least of the rules and the attacks were quick and sharp.

 

However, if one were wealthy, a prominent member of the community, and especially if they gave a lot of money to the church, there could be allowances for them on biblical violations, especially if they were still following the church rules. One such case involved a man who kept the church rules (dressed accordingly, wore his hair as they said, kept his face shaven, crossed his church t's) yet he began having an affair. The man's wife tried to get the pastor to speak with her husband about the matter but the pastor accused her of being a bad wife or her husband wouldn't be having an affair! After many attempts by the wife to deal with the matter biblically, all while being attacked at church, her husband openly moved out, filed for divorce and moved in with his "girl friend" and began bringing her to church with him. The wife made one final appeal to the pastor with the result being the pastor told the women of the church to shun the wife. The wife was basically run out of the church, her husband got the divorce, married the one he had the affair with, and kept giving those big donations to the church.

 

A very messed up situation. I've heard of similar in a few other churches but have no direct knowledge of those.

 

There are bad churches all around, but there are still many good churches. There are plenty of bad pastors, even many unsaved pastors, but there are still many good pastors around.

 

In some cases a church member may be able to help correct a wayward church, in others the Lord will lead them away. Some pastors/churches are open to Holy Ghost correction while others are intent upon doing things their own way.

 

We have to follow the leading of the Lord as to what church we attend, what pastor we hear. Several members on this board have had bad experiences in certain churches and with certain pastors. The thing is we can't allow such to keep us from finding and attending a good church. We also have to guard against bitterness and guard against causing further harm in how we deal with such.

 

I thank God for our good church home and our pastors. I'm also thankful for those I've attended in the past, and also thankful the Lord led me out of a couple others.

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Thank you John. What you have been saying sounds like it comes from your heart. I apologize if I made anyone upset. Thank you again for your comment. I will trust the Lord to guide me to the place where I can worship and serve Him. I wish I was close to your church. You have been very kind and understanding of my hurt. 

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PcOBle1,

 

As of yet you have not answered the question asked by, "I am Chief." What region is the church in?

 

I might also ask, as so many of the other brethren are thinking: What is the name of the church that Phil colbe thinks is legalistic? Besides asking you to wear a white shirt and a tie, what is so leagalistic about it? What is the name of the current independent Baptist Church that you are attedning?

 

I am sorry that you felt in bondage at the, yet, unamned, in your terms, legalistic,church and unnamed, in your term, legalistic, pastor.

 

All of us have emotional prOBlems and it the responsibility of the pastor to help each individual member. The Lord Jesus does not want any of His children have emotional bondage. The Lord gave me victory in my own personal life over my own emotional distresses. And, He used a godly indepedent pastor in doing so. God works through preachers preaching the word.

 

I did  read your introduction to your book, "Breaking the Bondage from Independent Baptist," for sell  on Amazon. com. The introduction was infammatory towards independent Baptist churches and openly gave the impression that the independent Baptist Movement was legalistic. After reading the introduction I am somewhat thinking, again I may be in error due to your unwillingness to answer legitamate questions, that you are not a true independent Baptist. And, in my own sometimes erroneous thinking, you may just want to cause dissension within the independent Baptist ranks.

 

Again, what is the name of the church and the name of the pastor. A true spiritual watchman, Isaiah 21:6, Ezekiel 33, will warn the people of legalistic churches by name and not by insinuation. Especially in a public forum as the internet.

 

I ask this as a brother in the Lord Jesus. the Lord Jesus, in Matthew 18:15-17, commanded us to first go to the brother privately, then with two brothers, and if the individual does not repent, as you claim this unnamed pastor did not repent, than go to the church publicly. Did you follow the commandments of the Lord Jesus? Paul the Apostle further stated, "Against an elder [pastor] receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses." 2 Timothy 5:19

 

My brother, did you have another witness that this unnamed pastor is legalistic? Is this second brother mentioned further in the book? If you do not have another witness then you are deliberately disOBeying the Holy Spirit inspired command of the Lord Jesus Christ as Paul the Apostle wrote and you are causing dissension among the brethren.

Edited by AlanTaiwan

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While it's prOBably known, it should also be noted that situations such as brought up in this thread are not restricted to occurring only in IFB churches. Over the years I've known of several SBC churches which were in that category and have heard of others. I've even heard of a couple of Lutheran and Methodist churches which would fit in this category.

 

I bring this up because so often, at least online and in the mainstream media, when this issue comes up it seems to be confined to "fundamentalist churches" as if such only happens in IFB churches and most often it's portrayed as if such is the case in most, if not all IFB churches, which isn't true at all.

 

This, with regards to many online things and what the mainstream media puts forth, is often coupled with IFBs being yoked together with off the wall cults and churches (such as Westboro) as if we are all one and the same which, again, isn't true at all.

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Real good post by and some spiritual wisdom by John81 that I think all of us can learn from. Thank you for your insight concerning the history, and scope, of the issue on this thread. 

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 I have also never badmouthed my former church to my present pastor or anyone at my present church for that matter.

This shows the mature core that enabled you to stay here even when the claws and fangs were out (which yours were several times at the least misconception of an alluded attack for the first 6 months following your arrival here). It also helped in your battle with bitterness.

 

As you (basically) said, If there are as many as 600 IBCs that are wicked, BEWARE, but considering there are 9000+ IBCs in the US alone 600 wouldn't make all (or most) dangerous.

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