Why Is Eschatology So Difficult To Interpret

[Ukulelemike]

That's what i figured, but it was too good to pass up!

Yeah, I thought as much.

 

 

Its tough, though. I DO like a spirited debate. And this is one I can rarely resist.

[John81]

Yeah, I thought as much.

 

 

Its tough, though. I DO like a spirited debate. And this is one I can rarely resist.

I would love to see a spirited, civil debate (or discussion) here on this issue but thus far in threads past the followers of Christ have been unable (unwilling) to do so as personal attacks, snide comments and even questioning of others salvation over the matter come to dominate. That's a very sad and shameful testimony.

[Ukulelemike]

I would love to see a spirited, civil debate (or discussion) here on this issue but thus far in threads past the followers of Christ have been unable (unwilling) to do so as personal attacks, snide comments and even questioning of others salvation over the matter come to dominate. That's a very sad and shameful testimony.

Agreed.

 

I have never seen the issue of the timing of the rapture as being a 'fundamental', though I know some do. That is WILL occur is certain-but as for the timing, there is disagreement because as I see it, having been there-done that, there are assumptions made about it, while other things seem to be ignored or stepped over. I certainly don't believe myself to be in perfect understanding of all things Bible, but there's a reason I changed from a long-held belief on the subject, and mostly it was because I had never bothered to study it out, preferring rather to take the popularly-held belief instead.

 

Now, understand, while I say these things, I am in no way casting aspersions(sp?) on anyone here-I speak of my own experience only.

 

One for instance: I had always been taught that one of the great passages that taught the pre-tribulation rapture was found in 1Thes 4. BUt it always bothered me because I never saw anything about timing, just the fact that it would happen. I heard it said, "Well, how can we comfort one another by it, if we know we will have to go through the tribulation period?" Well, simple: because that's not what any of it is about, it is about finding comfort in the knowledge that you will see your passed-on loved ones again if they died in Christ. THAT'S the comfort it speaks of, but it wasn't until I was honest about it and began to study it out that I fully embraced that.

 

But that's just one example. There are many more reasons I have rejected the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine, but again, I don't seek to cause trouble.

 

(And yet, here I am causing it. Derp)

[beameup]

Brother, 

I am not going to watch the video.  No need.  The basis for the confusion on the rapture is simply a failure to rightly divide the gospel teaching regarding a catching away of Trib saints prior to the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ, and the catching away of Church Saints prior to the Tribulation.  The first is found in the gospels; the second is found in the Pauline Epistles.  Simple.

 

​The "confusion" comes from not understanding that Jesus was not addressing "the Church" (the Body of Christ).  Jesus ministered to "the circumcision". 

Therefore, you won't find the doctrine of the "mystery" of the Body of Christ and the Rapture of the Body of Christ in the Gospels.

[MountainChristian]

​The "confusion" comes from not understanding that Jesus was not addressing "the Church" (the Body of Christ).  Jesus ministered to "the circumcision". 

Therefore, you won't find the doctrine of the "mystery" of the Body of Christ and the Rapture of the Body of Christ in the Gospels.

​The Head wasn't addressing the Body. Talk about confused. 

[beameup]

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:  Romans 15:8

[MountainChristian]

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:  Romans 15:8

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

 

And for the false doctrine the Jew/circumcised isn't part of the church.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

​

 

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

 

 

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

[beameup]

If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed  (AD 54)

unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs,

and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:  Eph 3:2-6

 

The promises made to the circumcision have not been fulfilled yet. 

Jesus will be both a King and Priest over his brethren the Jews.

[MountainChristian]

Who do you think they are fellowheirs with? Hint: Its the Jews

John 1:16 And of his (Jesus') fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Its Antisemitism to remove the Jewish people who are saved by grace from Jesus Christ. Its Antisemitism to say a Jewish person isn't saved during the dispensation of Grace.

Also among this false teaching is the idea that at Jesus' (white horse) return, Jesus will only save the Jews. Everyone will see and know Jesus is God. Yes for the Gentiles who become born again during the tribulation He will save them too, plus the gentiles who seeing Him then believe. Other wise there would only be one race of people on earth during the 1000 year reign. For those Jews and Gentiles with the mark of the beast they will go into Hell.

He is THE HIGH PRIEST for everyone who wants fellowship with God the Father. He is KING OF KINGS to everything/everyone except God the Father.

The Holy Bible proves Les Feldick's teachings on Jew/Gentiles false. That false doctrine only uses a handful of verses (neglects all other scripture) to form a distorted view.

[Genevanpreacher]

Getting steamy around here...

[Genevanpreacher]

​The "confusion" comes from not understanding that Jesus was not addressing "the Church" (the Body of Christ).  Jesus ministered to "the circumcision". 

Therefore, you won't find the doctrine of the "mystery" of the Body of Christ and the Rapture of the Body of Christ in the Gospels.

​Wow...here we go again with 'opinions' and teaching 'doctrine', all as one and the same... 

Beameup, read your verse again...notice my highlights:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed  (AD 54)

unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs,

and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"  Eph 3:2-6

 

See, 'jews' and 'gentiles' are of the same body, making them partakers together of the same

blessings of God in Eternity, and only because of  the gospel of God's salvation through Jesus Christ himself.

[beameup]

​Wow...here we go again with 'opinions' and teaching 'doctrine', all as one and the same... 

Beameup, read your verse again...notice my highlights:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed  (AD 54)

unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs,

and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"  Eph 3:2-6

 

See, 'jews' and 'gentiles' are of the same body, making them partakers together of the same

blessings of God in Eternity, and only because of  the gospel of God's salvation through Jesus Christ himself.

​This is the "Dispensation of Grace" (Eph 3:2), which will end at the removal of the Body of Christ from the earth to heaven.

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:  Romans 15:8

These "promises" have not been fulfilled yet.  When they are fulfilled, Jesus the Messiah will be both King and Priest, ruling from Jerusalem over the Earth.

 

[MountainChristian]

If the "dispensation of grace" ends everyone will go to Hell. Nowhere does it say that during Jacob's trouble there is no grace. No one can be saved without grace. So instead of 33% of the earth population making it until Jesus' white horse return 0% would be alive. Who is saved without grace? 

Jesus isn't already King of Kings and Lord of Lords? He isn't already THE High Priest of God? Another example of not reading the whole Bible. When a Jew gets saved does the earthly Aaron priest remain his high priest? More antisemitism. Removing the Jews from the High Priest Jesus. When a Jew gets saved King Jesus doesn't rule his life? More antisemitism. 

Les's teachings can be repeated over and over and over and over, but it doesn't make the rest of the Bible false. 

[Genevanpreacher]

​This is the "Dispensation of Grace" (Eph 3:2), which will end at the removal of the Body of Christ from the earth to heaven.

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:  Romans 15:8

These "promises" have not been fulfilled yet.  When they are fulfilled, Jesus the Messiah will be both King and Priest, ruling from Jerusalem over the Earth.

 

​Most of mis-led churchianity lives on 'phrases' like "Dispensation of Grace".

Also "Kingdom of God", "Kingdom of Heaven", "Kingdom Gospel", etc., without even paying attention to what is meant by that phrase.

When the so-called "Dispensation of Grace" appears over, the end of all things will be at hand. God's grace will no longer be dispensed.

That is the real definition to 'dispensation of grace', the time of God's grace being dispensed. From the beginning to the end of time.

[DaveW]

​Most of mis-led churchianity lives on 'phrases' like "Dispensation of Grace".

Also "Kingdom of God", "Kingdom of Heaven", "Kingdom Gospel", etc., without even paying attention to what is meant by that phrase.

When the so-called "Dispensation of Grace" appears over, the end of all things will be at hand. God's grace will no longer be dispensed.

That is the real definition to 'dispensation of grace', the time of God's grace being dispensed. From the beginning to the end of time.

Really?????

 

You howl on him for using "churchianity phrases"  and then make up a non-biblical definition and claim it to be "the real definition".

A simple search on the word dispensation gives 4 verses and three of them relate to a dispensation to Paul.

The other is "the dispensation of the fulness of times".

"Dispensation of grace" is not actually a bible phrase.

So then which of these four verses are you referring to for your definition so that we can "pay attention to what is meant by that phrase".