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The Cross And How Jews Perceive It: Sharing Messiah With The Jewish People


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LindaR,

 

Thank you for your fine post, enlightenment, and exposing the erroneous teaching of men like Dr. Gary Burge, Wheaton College towards God's chosen people; the Jews.

 

God's Covenant with Abraham, the Partiarch's, King David and the prophetic words of the prophets, have not been fulfilled as Dr. Burge, and others, teach through, 'replacement theology,' or 'fulfillment theology,' or some other method to replace the Covenent and promises to God to Israel. 

 

'Next year in Jerusalem.'

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Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.   WILL build...future tense.   The Lord

Let's set a precedent:   Gen_9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is

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Rahab, the Harlot was the mother of Boaz.  She was a Gentile.  I have no doubt she was saved, and possibly her family.

 

Ruth the Moabitess was a Gentile and the wife of Boaz.  I have no doubt she was saved.  Were they saved by keeping the law or by looking forward to Christ, their Saviour.

 

Invicta, I've made my position clear many times on this forum; in that, salvation has always, is, and will always be by grace through faith. If your post was in response to mine above, I wasn't speaking of salvation. I can see how one could have misunderstood due to this statement I made...

 

That portion of scripture not only shows that, but also shows that those "strangers" who joined Israel were subject to the law...not grace. 

 

Perhaps I could have worded it better, but I was merely pointing out that the scriptures made it clear that the strangers who joined Israel were... 

  1. joining the actual people in Israel,
  2. in the actual land of Israel,
  3. and they were also subject to the actual law that God gave to Israel. 

The church (grace) was given no such directive by God, and in using the term "grace", I was referring to the church; not salvation. 

 

That still doesn't adequately describe what I was trying to say, so I'll just stop trying to explain it.   :nuts:

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Well still looks like answers many of them are off question lol. The strangers part I don't know. In Judges I believe some people were left alive and remained.

There is Christian Zionism lol. Which is a curious thing to me. I don't know. On the one hand. I wonder if Paul would be a Christian Zionist. The Diaspora certainly didn't seem to upset many.

There seems to be a verse that says: I will seek to destroy the nations that come against Israel. In Zech.

Me I have not much of an opinion. Where that verse is in place and time. I don't know. Nope. For me this is not all about Israel. But the Kingdom of Heaven. If indeed after this many years out of the land. God intends to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven.

That would mean a lot of peoples play a part in this. Including the Jews and Israel. However the big news is the Kingdom of Heaven. Christian Zionism lol. I don't know I'll stick with the Kingdom of Heaven

One other thing I want to add. Or two. Praying for the peace of Jerusalem. Also those that love Jerusalem. Praying (as Christians have been for years) Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done. Potentialy in my mind anyway accomplishes both of those things in a Saintly way. Both the peace and the loving of Jerusalem.

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I found this on the IsraelVideoNetwork website…an article listing “16 Things That Give Israel A Bad Name But Aren’t Really True”The first statement listed was "Jews in Israel are White European Colonialists"   Then the question “What Is Another Word for ‘Israeli?’ ”   The Answer: Indigenous!

 

“The Jewish people are indigenous to Israel, the birthplace of their identity and unique culture, and have maintained a documented presence there for over 3,000 years. Half of modern Israel’s Jews returned home to Israel from the Middle East, Africa, and Asia. Jews who came from Europe were not colonialists. They did not represent a foreign power and rejected any identification with European nations. They were idealists who sought to restore and preserve their unique heritage and fought for the same rights that are granted to all peoples: self-determination and independence in their ancestral home. Over 150 years ago, Jews returned in ever-larger numbers, again became the majority in Jerusalem in the 1860s, and established Tel Aviv in 1909. In 1920 the international community officially recognized the indigenous rights of the Jewish people and endorsed the restoration of the Jewish Homeland.”

 

I recommend reading that entire list of 16 statements and the responses. 

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First off, he did, and is still 'building his church'. And he started it with the foundation of the Prophets

​I believe that this is what you're referring to?

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

I can see why you would attribute "prophets" as being the Old Testament prophets; thereby, including them in the church. However, in the very next chapter of Ephesians, we find this...

Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Paul wasn't referring to the Old Testament prophets; he was referring to the prophets who were alive (now) at the time of his writing.

 

 

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​I believe that this is what you're referring to?

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

I can see why you would attribute "prophets" as being the Old Testament prophets; thereby, including them in the church. However, in the very next chapter of Ephesians, we find this...

Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Paul wasn't referring to the Old Testament prophets; he was referring to the prophets who were alive (now) at the time of his writing.

 

 

​Perhaps we could call one of the hotlines to a prophetic ministry and see what a contemporary prophet has to say on the matter.:o

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​I believe that this is what you're referring to?

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

I can see why you would attribute "prophets" as being the Old Testament prophets; thereby, including them in the church. However, in the very next chapter of Ephesians, we find this...

Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Paul wasn't referring to the Old Testament prophets; he was referring to the prophets who were alive (now) at the time of his writing.

 

 

​You are using a bit of creative license with this thinking.

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​I believe that this is what you're referring to?

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

​Actually: 

 
Matthew 2:23 Read whole chapterSee verse in context
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Matthew 5:12 Read whole chapterSee verse in context
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 5:17 Read whole chapterSee verse in context
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 7:12 Read whole chapterSee verse in context
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 11:13 Read whole chapterSee verse in context
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Matthew 16:14 Read whole chapterSee verse in context
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Matthew 22:40 Read whole chapterSee verse in context
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 
 

 
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​You are using a bit of creative license with this thinking.

​No, it's called applying context to what's written. The context isn't referring to Old Testament prophets; it's referring to those who were alive at the time of the writing of Ephesians...hence the "now" in Ephesians 3:5.

​Actually: 

 
Matthew 2:23 Read whole chapterSee verse in context
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Matthew 5:12 Read whole chapterSee verse in context
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 5:17 Read whole chapterSee verse in context
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 7:12 Read whole chapterSee verse in context
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 11:13 Read whole chapterSee verse in context
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Matthew 16:14 Read whole chapterSee verse in context
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Matthew 22:40 Read whole chapterSee verse in context
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

​Don't read this as though I'm being sarcastic, because I'm not. Can you not see the context of those verses? Do you not see how often "the law" is also mentioned in those verses? Is "the law" also part of the church?

The prophets AND the law foretold and pointed to Christ. Christ fulfilled (and will fulfill) what was foretold. While I believe beyond any doubt that God's true prophets were saved, there is nothing in the verses that you've given above or any other scripture that I've seen indicating that the Old Testament prophets were part of the church. The church was future according to the Lord Jesus Christ's own words. 

Look at the order...

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

  1. Jesus Christ - the chief cornerstone...it began with him, and without him, it wouldn't exist.
  2. apostles - mentioned before prophets. 
  3. prophets - mentioned after apostles.

If we're talking about a foundation, a literal foundation has to be laid correctly. You can't put a part of a literal foundation in the wrong order or the foundation will fail...as will the building it supports. Christ is the most important part...the chief cornerstone. That's where a literal foundation starts too...at the cornerstone.

If I dig a footing...lay a cornerstone...then begin to build the rest of the foundation...

I can't put the mortar before the block...or the rebar before the block...or the block first, then cover it with mortar, then lay rebar on top of that...no, I have to follow an order to have a firm foundation.

In our scriptural foundation, Christ is the most important part...the chief cornerstone. Next mentioned is the apostles...THEN prophets are mentioned. The Old Testament prophets came BEFORE the apostles, yet prophets are mentioned after the apostles in the foundation. That's because the context of being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets are referring to prophets alive at the time of Paul's writing...not Old Testament prophets.

Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

 

 

 

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The prophets AND the law foretold and pointed to Christ. Christ fulfilled (and will fulfill) what was foretold. While I believe beyond any doubt that God's true prophets were saved, there is nothing in the verses that you've given above or any other scripture that I've seen indicating that the Old Testament prophets were part of the church. The church was future according to the Lord Jesus Christ's own words. [in this discussion I am not saying they are.] 

Look at the order...

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; [yes! look at the order.]

  1. Jesus Christ - the chief cornerstone...it began with him, and without him, it wouldn't exist.
  2. apostles - mentioned before prophets. 
  3. prophets - mentioned after apostles.

If we're talking about a foundation, a literal foundation has to be laid correctly. You can't put a part of a literal foundation in the wrong order or the foundation will fail...as will the building it supports. Christ is the most important part...the chief cornerstone.[which goes on top of the foundation.] That's where a literal foundation starts too...at the cornerstone.

[I was a carpenter for 25 years, so I know a bit about laying block for a structure (cornerstone) to be built upon a foundation.]

If I dig a footing...lay a cornerstone...then begin to build the rest of the foundation...[your footer is the foundation for the cornerstone.]

I can't put the mortar before the block...or the rebar before the block...or the block first, then cover it with mortar, then lay rebar on top of that...no, I have to follow an order to have a firm foundation. [exactly!]

​Um, the cornerstone is usually set on something we would call the foundation. Some a footer. The building aspect of your thoughtline is not correct.

Now the verse saying that Christ is the foundation is a good one to use, but a cornerstone was placed on something. The Law was our school master till Christ came, hence the foundation. 

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​Um, the cornerstone is usually set on something we would call the foundation. Some a footer. The building aspect of your thoughtline is not correct.

Now the verse saying that Christ is the foundation is a good one to use, but a cornerstone was placed on something. The Law was our school master till Christ came, hence the foundation. 

​Okay...

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[I was a carpenter for 25 years, so I know a bit about laying block for a structure (cornerstone) to be built upon a foundation.]

​...you might want to investigate what a cornerstone was (and its place in a foundation) in biblical times.

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Where I am we don't use any cornerstone, except in a ceremonial sense.

Our "cornerstones" are often around eye level, well above the "foundation" and several courses up in the wall.

 

Just because you don't understand what a biblical cornerstone is doesn't negate the truth.

Biblically, the foundation is based off the cornerstone and the whole building - beginning with the foundation - is referenced to that point. 

The cornerstone is the first thing placed, in a biblical sense.

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The foundation is the corner stone, they didn't have concrete. Concrete is man-made corner stone. When you build the forms for the concrete it must be started at the corners so the foundation is square. 

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​...you might want to investigate what a cornerstone was (and its place in a foundation) in biblical times.

​How about the Lord himself? Matthew 7 says -

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

 

You will notice that a building of any sort has a foundation, the same now as in the 'Bible times'. 

The scriptures are 'for' our day, and have nothing 'outdated' in them that can't be seen.

How do you think we 'got the idea' of how to build a proper 'building'?

Experience - from a thousand generations. [And that happens to go way back in 'bible times'.]

 

A house, for example, does have a 'cornerstone'. The first block laid to start the base of our structure

commonly called a foundation. But that base needs to be placed upon something 'stable' to ensure

that the structure placed upon the base will stand the 'test of time' and endure 'to the end'.

 

The house includes the 'cornerstone', and the firm 'rock' that it is placed upon confirms that stableness.

If you build a 'foundation' upon sand, there is no way it will stand.

 

Looking at the Lord's words here you will also observe that he said his words are what make that foundation the 'rock'.

 

"whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them - built his house upon a rock"

"every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not - built his house upon the sand"

 

 

And I believe the scriptures clearly teach that the O.T. books are the foundation to which God himself placed

the 'cornerstone' of the Christ of God, Jesus, the Son of God, and our Savior.

 

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

If the Lord Jesus did not fulfill all that the scriptures said of him, he would not be the 'rock'.

The 'cornerstone' needed to be placed upon the foundation of the 'prophets' and what they said about the coming Messiah.

 

Examples?

 

                Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

 
        Matthew 2:15 
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
        Matthew 2:17 
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
        Matthew 2:23
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
        Matthew 4:14 
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
        Matthew 5:18 
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
        Matthew 8:17 
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
        Matthew 12:17 
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
        Matthew 13:14 
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
 
Matthew 13:35
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
        Matthew 24:34 
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
        Matthew 26:54
But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
        Matthew 26:56
But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
        Matthew 27:9 
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
        Matthew 27:35 
And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The foundation is the corner stone, they didn't have concrete. Concrete is man-made corner stone. When you build the forms for the concrete it must be started at the corners so the foundation is square. 

​No.

The block/cornerstone was to be squared, not the footer/concrete it was placed upon,

or as the scriptures teach, the 'rock'. (see above post, where the Lord says a wise man builds his house upon.)

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Okay...but you're missing out on a lot of things by not seeing how things were done during the time when the Bible was written...aka - Bible times. Some things were done much differently (back in Bible times), and without knowing or understanding that, one will miss a deeper meaning or truth. Same as with some of the wording in the Bible...if you apply modern-day meanings to them, you get the wrong meaning and message. 

Bible times, Bible times, Bible times...

​Looking at the Lord's words here you will also observe that he said his words are what make that foundation the 'rock'.

"whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them - built his house upon a rock"

"every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not - built his house upon the sand"

​No...that's not what the Lord Jesus Christ said. You left out parts of those verses.

Matthew 7:24 and 26
24   Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

26   And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

 

The Lord is comparing those who hear and obey (his sayings) to a wise man who builds his house upon a rock...and a foolish man who builds a house upon the sand. That says nothing of what you stated that it says.

Both the wise and the foolish men heard his sayings...

...the difference is that the wise heard AND obeyed; the foolish heard but DIDN'T obey. He's not saying that his words are the foundation or the rock...he's saying that a man who hears and obeys his sayings is wise and, that man (not Christ's sayings) is LIKE a man who builds upon a rock.

Bible times, Bible times, Bible times...

 

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Okay...but you're missing out on a lot of things by not seeing how things were done during the time when the Bible was written...aka - Bible times. Some things were done much differently (back in Bible times), and without knowing or understanding that, one will miss a deeper meaning or truth. Same as with some of the wording in the Bible...if you apply modern-day meanings to them, you get the wrong meaning and message. 

Bible times, Bible times, Bible times...

​No...that's not what the Lord Jesus Christ said. You left out parts of those verses.

Matthew 7:24 and 26
24   Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

26   And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

 

The Lord is comparing those who hear and obey (his sayings) to a wise man who builds his house upon a rock...and a foolish man who builds a house upon the sand. That says nothing of what you stated that it says.

Both the wise and the foolish men heard his sayings...

...the difference is that the wise heard AND obeyed; the foolish heard but DIDN'T obey. He's not saying that his words are the foundation or the rock...he's saying that a man who hears and obeys his sayings is wise and, that man (not Christ's sayings) is LIKE a man who builds upon a rock.

Bible times, Bible times, Bible times...

 

​You obviously are not seeing what I say, or mean. I know what he is referring to. I was just pointing out he used a proper mode of building in his teaching that was commonly known IN biblical times.

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​No...that's not what the Lord Jesus Christ said. You left out parts of those verses.

​I think you should reread this part. As the verses are complete above where you are quoting, and it is obvious what I was doing.

I was just picking out the important parts of the verses that I wanted you to see as a comparison. Surely you see that.

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Okay...but you're missing out on a lot of things by not seeing how things were done during the time when the Bible was written...aka - Bible times. Some things were done much differently (back in Bible times), and without knowing or understanding that, one will miss a deeper meaning or truth. Same as with some of the wording in the Bible...if you apply modern-day meanings to them, you get the wrong meaning and message. 

​Uh, could you be a bit more clear on what you mean?

I just showed you where the Lord used a commonly known way of building a structure in his example of believers versus non-believers in Matthew 7.

How much more info do you need?

Do you have a verse or verses that explain the Bible times way of building?

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​I think you should reread this part. As the verses are complete above where you are quoting, and it is obvious what I was doing.

I was just picking out the important parts of the verses that I wanted you to see as a comparison. Surely you see that.

​In humble honesty...no sir, I don't see that. When I read what you said...in the words that you said, what was obvious to me was obviously something different than what was obvious to you.

We are going around and around here, so this will be my final reply. As you believe that what you said was obvious, I believe the following is obvious.

1. The church was future according to the Lord Jesus Christ's own words...

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

2. The church was built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets...

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

3. Those prophets were not the Old Testament prophets...

Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

4. The early church was given those prophets by the Holy Spirit; being a prophet was a gift of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

See...there are the apostles AND prophets...the first two listed, and they are the foundation upon which the church was built.

5. The fact that the early church had prophets is evidenced by...

  • Acts 11:27-30
  • Acts 13:1-3
  • Acts 15:32

 

 

 

 

 

 

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​In humble honesty...no sir, I don't see that. When I read what you said...in the words that you said, what was obvious to me was obviously something different than what was obvious to you.

​So, um, you don't have verses to show proper Bible times building instructions?

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1 Kings 7:9 All these were of costly stones, according to the measures of hewed stones, sawed with saws, within and without, even from the foundation unto the coping, and so on the outside toward the great court.
10 And the foundation was of costly stones, even great stones, stones of ten cubits, and stones of eight cubits.

They didn't use a footer. 

In modern times the concrete footer must be square when its poured or the blocks will not have a proper foundation. If you have a footer that is 99' across at one end and 100' across at the other then the blocks will be hanging off the footer on the short end. And when the inspector arrives it will all get torn down and repoured. 

I hope this helps and doesn't cause more confusion. 

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1 Kings 7:9 All these were of costly stones, according to the measures of hewed stones, sawed with saws, within and without, even from the foundation unto the coping, and so on the outside toward the great court.
10 And the foundation was of costly stones, even great stones, stones of ten cubits, and stones of eight cubits.

They didn't use a footer. 

In modern times the concrete footer must be square when its poured or the blocks will not have a proper foundation. If you have a footer that is 99' across at one end and 100' across at the other then the blocks will be hanging off the footer on the short end. And when the inspector arrives it will all get torn down and repoured. 

I hope this helps and doesn't cause more confusion. 

​And they put those stones on what?

Rock. (we make our own, called footers.)

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