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The Cross And How Jews Perceive It: Sharing Messiah With The Jewish People


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Invicta, I'm not sure where you stand on this "the church is Israel" thing. Therefore, I'm not sure how to respond. The point of my post was to show that it would appear that one can pick and choose when Israel is "the church" or when Israel is "Israel". Israel apparently is only "the church" when it benefits "the church". However, when it's a detriment to "the church", then Israel is actually "Israel"?  :scratchchin:

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One could say praying for the peace of Jerusalem. Could be simply be accomplished by praying "Thy Kingdom come. Thy Will be done". Christians have been praying this for years. I see all thats taking place of course is composed of a lot of peoples and things.

For my interest is in that all of it is more about the Kingdom of Heaven. More so than it is about the Jews, Christians or anything else.

There are still earthly concerns. I think Geneva pointed that out with "In Issac shall they seed be called"

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

In which all nations are blessed thru Abraham. This to me speaks of Christ.

I'm not sure what this discussion is about. I am no Bible scholar. I will simply preach Christ crucified. Which should benifit everyone I preach it to hopefully.

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'No Nicolaitans' is correct in his proper quotation of the words of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 16:18 in this thread. The words of the Lord Jesus is very clear and no amount of 'clarification' is needed.

 

Furthermore, 'No Nicolaitans' is correct in his fine exposition of Romans 11:25-28 and in his 'rightly dividing the scriptures.' Only a true bible Believer, an independent Baptist that is true to the fundamentals of the faith, can do such a fine exposition of Romans 11:25-28 One of the prOBlems, in my estimation, is that some of the brethren are not solid independent fundamental Baptists and, on occasion, are incorrectly dividing the scriptures.

 

As 'No Nicolaitans' further pointed out, we need to read the rest of Romans 11 to fully discover that the Gentiles in the body of Christ are only 'grafted' into the tree of 'Israel.' The 'Tree,' the elect sons of Israel, is still alive and not forgotten by God. And, that the 'gifts and calling of God are without repentance.' Any fruit farmer can tell you without the tree the grafted branch will die and that all of the nourishment for the growth of the branch is in the tree; not the branch.

 

All of us Gentiles who have been grafted in into the 'tree' need to heed the admonition of Paul the Apostle and help the Jewish race (whether saved or lost), physically, as the Jewish race (whether lost or saved), has helped us spiritually, Romans 15:27 Every Christian is a debtor to the Jewish race.

 

God will once again use the literal sons of Israel to fulfull His perfect and complete will in the prophetic years ahead as recorded, literally, in the Book of Revelation. 

 

Thank you brother! Amen! Praise the Lord!

Edited by AlanTaiwan
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Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

WILL build...future tense.

 

The Lord Jesus Christ didn't say, "I will continue building my church". He didn't say, "I will finish building the church that I started building in the Old Testament." 

 

 

 

No, the blessings upon them as an OBedient people were only up to when they were disOBedient, and the punishment was for them to be driven from the land (among other physical punishments). 

 

 

 

Sir, you need to read the whole chapter. You might then check Romans 11...especially this part...

 

Romans 11:25-28

25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from JacOB:

27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 

So if the church is Israel, then according to Romans 11:26...after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, all Israel of the church will be saved? And the Deliverer shall turn away ungodliness from JacOB the church? And then in verse 27, God will take away their the church's sins? And in verse 28, they the church are enemies for the gospel's sake, but they the church are beloved for the father's sake (even though they are enemies to the gospel)?

 

Or...does Israel mean Israel, and the church means the church?

 

First off, he did, and is still 'building his church'. And he started it with the foundation of the Prophets

and 'preachers of old' who preached a reality of love from God the Father to his children whom he knew, and knows will love him in belief.
 

Second, you missed the first 24 verses of chapter 11 somewhere, where he  describes exactly what I have said.

All Israel are the conglomeration of the Israelites of blood lineage that are saved, and the faithful children of Abraham, in the Gentiles that are saved, through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

Here -

 

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

Then here -

 

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

 

Here -

 

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in hisgoodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved:

 

Because we all make up the olive tree that is called the saved born again Church of the Living God!!!

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The Bible does teach that there is neither Jew nor Greek...that we are all one...all children of God through faith. It does teach that as people of faith, we are heirs according to the promise made to Abraham and his seed (Christ).

 

However, what are we heirs of? What promise do we (as Gentiles) inherit because we are now "Abraham's seed"? It's very simple; the Bible clearly tells us what we have inherited...

 

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

See, there it is...because we are Christ's, we are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

So what was the promise?

 

Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

There's the promise! Abraham believed God (faith), and because of this, all who have faith are blessed with Abraham.

 

However, the promise was given to Abraham AND his seed. Who was his seed?

 

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

The promises that we also inherit were given to Abraham and his seed...the Lord Jesus Christ...and what were those promises?

 

1. That we would be blessed, and we are blessed because of the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

2. The second promise (which is directly tied to the first promise) that we inherit as children of Abraham is this...

 

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

So there you have it. Yes, we are children of Abraham. Yes, we receive and are heirs of the promise. However, the Bible clearly defines what those promise are that we inherit...

 

1. We are blessed with the opportunity (as Gentiles) to place our faith in the finished work of Christ for salvation. All nations can receive that blessing!

2. If we have placed our faith in Christ, we receive the promise of the Spirit...who indwells us.

 

There you have it. The promises given, and the promises received. 

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Here's a link to The Berean Call's Radio program "Search The Scriptures Daily".  It's the transcript and the link to  the audio:

 

Dave & Tom Classic - What's The Difference Between Israel and the Church? (First aired on March 16, 2001 and re-broadcasted on November 14, 2014 on Search The Scriptures 24/7)

 

Two excerpts from the transcript:
 

T. A. McMahon:

 

Dave, our subject for today is, “ Israel and the Church” and we know from the Bible that Jesus was called the King of Israel in John:1:49, and that was a title that He didn’t repudiate.  He is also referred to as, Head of the church in Ephesians:5:23.  So, how are Christians to view Israel in the church?  Is there a distinction and if so, how important is it for us to understand what the Bible declares about both entities?

 

Dave Hunt:

 

Well, there certainly is a distinction in the Bible and any distinction the Bible makes has to be important.  The Bible is talking about important things revealing God’s purposes and plans for us.  For example, Israel was given a land.  They are God’s chosen people.  The Germans were never given a land; the Americans, whoever they are, they are a big mixture, were never given America although some professing Christians seem to think so and they think that Christians have to take it back.  The church is composed of both Jews and Gentiles, it is something new.  The church did not exist in the Old Testament.  Christ said, “On this rock I will build my church,” Matthew 16.  So, OBviously there was a beginning.  The church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, Ephesians 2.  So, there is no doubt that there is a difference.  God still has plans for Israel .  In Ephesians 2, it tells us that Christ when He died on the cross He broke down the middle wall or partition between Jews and Gentiles.  There was a distinction and there still is today except in the Church there is no distinction anymore.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free and so forth.  But we are one in Christ so He made of two one new man, Jew and Gentile became one new man.  Now, when the Jews became believers in Christ and part of the Church, that didn’t end Israel .  It didn’t end the other Jews, nor did they cease to be Jews themselves but they are one in Christ now with Gentiles.  When the Gentiles become Christians that does not end the Gentile nations.  So, you can’t say that because the church was founded the nation of Israel ceased to exist.  So in 1 Co. 10:32 Paul says, “Giving none offense, neither to the Jew nor to the Gentile nor to the church of God .”  So OBviously, today after the Church was formed there still exist the Jew, the Gentile and the Church of God .  And, those in the Church of God are neither Jew nor Gentile.

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First off, he did, 

 

Huh?

 

 

Second, you missed the first 24 verses of chapter 11 somewhere, where he  describes exactly what I have said.

 

Strange, because the first 24 verses describes exactly what I have said. If you'll go back and read my post and my subsequent post to Invicta, you'll see why I "missed" the first 24 verses. However, in your quoting of scripture, you left out verses 1 and 2 of chapter 11...

 

Romans 11:1-2
1   I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2   God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

 

 

All Israel are the conglomeration of the Israelites of blood lineage that are saved, and the faithful children of Abraham, in the Gentiles that are saved, through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

Goodness man. All Israel is ALL ISRAEL. You just proved my point. The church is Israel when it benefits the church, but then Israel is Israel when that benefits the church. You had no prOBlem differentiating between Israel and the church in your post when it worked in your favor.

 

In reference to "all Israel shall be saved", perhaps a perusing of Zechariah would be of benefit; in which, only 1/3 of all Israel will be left when the Lord Jesus Christ returns. This 1/3 will comprise ALL of Israel since the other 2/3's have been killed. This 1/3 of Israel will look on him whom they pierced, and they will mourn when they realize that the one who was crucified, the one they rejected, the one they hated...truly is their Messiah. This 1/3 of Israel will then be saved...in other words...ALL ISRAEL shall be saved.

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In reference to "all Israel shall be saved", perhaps a perusing of Zechariah would be of benefit; in which, only 1/3 of all Israel will be left when the Lord Jesus Christ returns. This 1/3 will comprise ALL of Israel since the other 2/3's have been killed. This 1/3 of Israel will look on him whom they pierced, and they will mourn when they realize that the one who was crucified, the one they rejected, the one they hated...truly is their Messiah. This 1/3 of Israel will then be saved...in other words...ALL ISRAEL shall be saved.

I don't get mixed up in these threads on eschatology because it just confuses me more than I am on the subject of Israel's place in the world today.  

If the 1/3 of Israel (the remnant) are to all recognize Christ as their saviour and be saved, are they then Christians?  

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I don't get mixed up in these threads on eschatology because it just confuses me more than I am on the subject of Israel's place in the world today.  

If the 1/3 of Israel (the remnant) are to all recognize Christ as their saviour and be saved, are they then Christians?  

 

In my view, anyone who accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior is a Christian. 

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First off let me say this lol. America is not a Holy Nation. That gets on my last nerve when I hear that. Rather:

1 Peter 2

Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disOBedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disOBedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not OBtained mercy, but now have OBtained mercy.

So we are a Holy Nation. A people that are no people. Call it Christian or rather Holy.

Enough of the Heritical teaching America is a Christian nation. There is no Democracy in the Bible as far as I can see.

I'll put these verses in. Once again I am no Bible scholar so I will let all of you expound on this without comment.

EX 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Deut 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Deut 26:19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be anholy people unto the Lord thy God, as he hath spoken.

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First off let me say this lol. America is not a Holy Nation. That gets on my last nerve when I hear that. Rather:

1 Peter 2

Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disOBedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disOBedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not OBtained mercy, but now have OBtained mercy.

So we are a Holy Nation. A people that are no people. Call it Christian or rather Holy.

Enough of the Heritical teaching America is a Christian nation. There is no Democracy in the Bible as far as I can see.

I'll put these verses in. Once again I am no Bible scholar so I will let all of you expound on this without comment.

EX 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Deut 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Deut 26:19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be anholy people unto the Lord thy God, as he hath spoken.

 

Potatochip, 

 

I don't mean any disrespect, but did you mean to put this post here? The subject isn't a prOBlem; it just seems like it would be better served in its own thread since it's dealing with something entirely different than what was being discussed in this thread?

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Invicta, I'm not sure where you stand on this "the church is Israel" thing. Therefore, I'm not sure how to respond. The point of my post was to show that it would appear that one can pick and choose when Israel is "the church" or when Israel is "Israel". Israel apparently is only "the church" when it benefits "the church". However, when it's a detriment to "the church", then Israel is actually "Israel"?  :scratchchin:

I was brought up in this Brethren teaching that the Church and Israel were always separate. In studying the scriptures, I now completely reject their teaching.   I believe their is only one church.  Moses and all those true believers in the OT were members of the Church, those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of Life.  Moses knew about that book, 31  And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. 32  Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin — ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33  And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. 

 

Daniel knew about that book. Daniel 12:1.

 

I do not believe what a lot of Baptists round here teach, that "All Israel" means the Elect, or the Church.  I believe that there is one Church in the OT and the NT, consisting of all those saved. Tehe Gentiles were graffed in and blindness cam in part on Israel. But one day the Jews will graffed  back in.  THEN all Israel will be saved.  How will the be saved?  The same as those Jews in Acts 2

 37 ¶  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
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I was brought up in this Brethren teaching that the Church and Israel were always separate. In studying the scriptures, I now completely reject their teaching.   I believe their is only one church.  Moses and all those true believers in the OT were members of the Church, those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of Life.  Moses knew about that book, 31  And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. 32  Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin — ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33  And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. 

 

Daniel knew about that book. Daniel 12:1.

 

I do not believe what a lot of Baptists round here teach, that "All Israel" means the Elect, or the Church.  I believe that there is one Church in the OT and the NT, consisting of all those saved. Tehe Gentiles were graffed in and blindness cam in part on Israel. But one day the Jews will graffed  back in.  THEN all Israel will be saved.  How will the be saved?  The same as those Jews in Acts 2

 37 ¶  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

 

 

Thank you for your response Invicta. 

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