Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 PrOBably because it isn't there. DaveW and LindaR 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LindaR Posted February 9, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 We were graft in the body of believers (branches of the true vine). We all, as believers in God (in Spirit in the O.T.), and the Lord Jesus (God in flesh in the N.T.) and he made of 'two', one body of believers.  It's not that Israel was 'something else' in the O.T., true believers were always the church, they just enlarged their 'nationality' to include us as gentile believers in Jesus as God in human form.  Acts 7 - 38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:  I don't see why that is so hard to see. The nation of Israel was NEVER called the Church in the OT...and it is NEVER called the Church in the NT. That's what Replacement Theology teaches.  Acts 7:38 doesn't say that nation of Israel was the Church....the Greek word for "church" in that verse is "ekklesia" and it means "called out assembly". It does not mean that the nation of Israel was ever the Church, the Body of Christ. You won't find the word "church" in the OT at all.  So the reason "why it is so hard to see" is because, like SFIC said, it isn't there.  The Body of Christ/the NT Church began at Pentecost (Acts 2), not in the Old Testament with the nation of Israel. Teaching that the nation of Israel was always "the church" is teaching Replacement Theology. Just because you don't use the term Replacement Theology and use Inclusion Theology, doesn't change the facts.  There is NO Body of Christ in the OT.   Standing Firm In Christ and Jim_Alaska 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) The nation of Israel was NEVER called the Church in the OT...and it is NEVER called the Church in the NT. That's what Replacement Theology teaches.  Acts 7:38 doesn't say that nation of Israel was the Church....the Greek word for "church" in that verse is "ekklesia" and it means "called out assembly". It does not mean that the nation of Israel was ever the Church, the Body of Christ. You won't find the word "church" in the OT at all.  So the reason "why it is so hard to see" is because, like SFIC said, it isn't there.  The Body of Christ/the NT Church began at Pentecost (Acts 2), not in the Old Testament with the nation of Israel. Teaching that the nation of Israel was always "the church" is teaching Replacement Theology. Just because you don't use the term Replacement Theology and use Inclusion Theology, doesn't change the facts.  There is NO Body of Christ in the OT.    The Tabernacle of the congregation is never mentioned in the Old Testament? Here is a link, in which you will find it multiple times -  http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=+tabernacle+of+the+congregation&hs=1 The Church is the Congregation of believers, and that is who were worshiping the Lord in the Old Testament is it not? And just who was the God Israel worshiped? The Godhead, which was also Jesus, as per John 1:1. The scriptures are clear in this, and they don't need me to defend them, as well as you to claim the 'church' didn't exist in the O.T. This is simply ridiculous, in my humble opinion, that anyone would limit God, who is one with Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, according to 1 John 5:7, and John 1:1, as well as John 1:14, and many other scriptures that I am sure, as a believer in the Son of the Living God, you know, that the Lord would limit his church to just the N.T. Edited February 9, 2015 by Genevanpreacher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LindaR Posted February 9, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 The Tabernacle of the congregation is never mentioned in the Old Testament? Here is a link, in which you will find it multiple times -  http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=+tabernacle+of+the+congregation&hs=1 The Church is the Congregation of believers, and that is who were worshiping the Lord in the Old Testament is it not? And just who was the God Israel worshiped? The Godhead, which was also Jesus, as per John 1:1. The scriptures are clear in this, and they don't need me to defend them, as well as you to claim the 'church' didn't exist in the O.T. This is simply ridiculous, in my humble opinion, that anyone would limit God, who is one with Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, according to 1 John 5:7, and John 1:1, as well as John 1:14, and many other scriptures that I am sure, as a believer in the Son of the Living God, you know, that the Lord would limit his church to just the N.T. No, The Church is not the Congregation of believers in the Old Testament. Using different terminology isn't going to change the facts that the Church, the BODY OF CHRIST did not begin before Pentecost. That is NOT limiting the Church to just the NT. because there was NO Church in the OT.  In Matthew 16:18, Jesus said "I WILL BUILD my Church...." future tense. This means that Christ's building of His Body was yet future. The Apostle Paul called the Church a mystery, did he not? (Ephesians 3:1-11)  The nation of Israel was not, and has never been the Body of Christ....either in the OT or the NT. Thay are two separate and distinct entities throughout Scriptures. Therefore, the conclusion of the matter of the nation of Israel existing as the Church in the OT is erroneous and what you are teaching is indeed Replacement Theology. Jim_Alaska 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 Â And just who was the God Israel worshiped? The Godhead, which was also Jesus, as per John 1:1. Â Â Sir, that was part of the Jew's prOBlem in why they rejected the Lord Jesus Christ. They didn't worship the Godhead; they only believed in (and worshiped) one single God... Â The Old Testament does refer to the Godhead...just as it refers to the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection; however, the Jews didn't see it...and they still don't see it today. Standing Firm In Christ and LindaR 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 Sir, that was part of the Jew's prOBlem in why they rejected the Lord Jesus Christ. They didn't worship the Godhead; they only believed in (and worshiped) one single God... Â The Old Testament does refer to the Godhead...just as it refers to the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection; however, the Jews didn't see it...and they still don't see it today. Â Only those who lived in disbelief worshiped what you say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 No, The Church is not the Congregation of believers in the Old Testament. Using different terminology isn't going to change the facts that the Church, the BODY OF CHRIST did not begin before Pentecost. That is NOT limiting the Church to just the NT. because there was NO Church in the OT.  In Matthew 16:18, Jesus said "I WILL BUILD my Church...." future tense. This means that Christ's building of His Body was yet future. The Apostle Paul called the Church a mystery, did he not? (Ephesians 3:1-11)  The nation of Israel was not, and has never been the Body of Christ....either in the OT or the NT. Thay are two separate and distinct entities throughout Scriptures. Therefore, the conclusion of the matter of the nation of Israel existing as the Church in the OT is erroneous and what you are teaching is indeed Replacement Theology.  You are just mixed up in the commonly taught 'view' of 'Jews are special, no matter what their spiritual condition' type of hype, which is not scriptural, and I refuse to continue this hopeless discussion based upon other people 'opinions', and not on what is taught in the scriptures.  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Covenanter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LindaR Posted February 9, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2015  You are just mixed up in the commonly taught 'view' of 'Jews are special, no matter what their spiritual condition' type of hype, which is not scriptural, and I refuse to continue this hopeless discussion based upon other people 'opinions', and not on what is taught in the scriptures.  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.  Genevanpreacher,  I am not the one who is "mixed up". The Jews (and the nation of Israel) are God's chosen people. This is what God's Word says:Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.Deuteronomy 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:Deuteronomy 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;Deuteronomy 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.  God did judge, is judging, and will judge His chosen people (the Jews and the nation of Israel) for their disOBedience to His commandments and their rejection of Christ....AND He will also judge those "that hate him (the Jew) to their face, to destroy them: (the Jews)..."  (Deuteronomy 7:10)   Therefore your statement:   the commonly taught 'view' of 'Jews are special, no matter what their spiritual condition' is in error.  Remember, you are the one who chose to post what you did in this thread, so your refusal not to continue posting in this thread is also your choice. So be it.  BTW, being a Jew, I take offense at your statement about the Jews.  No Nicolaitans and Standing Firm In Christ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) Regardless of one's belief, the fact is...the Jews are a special people; they are God's chosen people. Despite their "spiritual condition", God loves them. God made promises the THEM specifically. However, there appears to be a quandary...  1. God has broken (or will break) his promises to Israel. a- Therefore, God is a liar. b- Therefore, God is a sinner.  2. God's promises to Israel weren't actually to Israel; they were to the church. a- Therefore, the land promised to Israel (and all of the blessings associated therewith) actually belongs to me. b- However, which tribe do I belong to? I need to know so that I will live in the appropriate section of the land. c- When have 10 men grabbed my skirt to go with me to Jerusalem because they heard the Lord was with me (since I'm a Jew)? d- However, if this were true (the church is Israel), that would still make God a liar and a sinner since all of the physical blessings promised to Israel haven't happened in my life...since I'm a Jew.  3. God is God; he is holy and righteous. Therefore, he can't lie; as such, his is not a sinner, and he will keep his promises that he made specifically to the Jews. a- Therefore, he will fulfil every promise that he made to Israel...down to the last jot and tittle. b- Israel is loved by God despite their "spiritual condition"...as is all of mankind by the way.  Why is it so hard to accept that God made promises to Israel that were meant for Israel and Israel alone? Why is there even a discussion about this? God made promises...to Israel. He's God, and God doesn't lie. He can keep a promise that he made to Israel just as easily as he can keep the promise that "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".  God said that he would bring Israel back into the land...a promise that wasn't contingent upon their "spiritual condition" by the way. He just said that he would do it. As a matter of fact, he also said that it would be AFTER they were back in the land...that THEN he would give them a new heart and be their God forever.  God doesn't need an "out" (the church is Israel) in order to fulfil his word or promises. He's God, and he can do anything and everything that he said he could (and would) do...exactly the way he said that he would do it. Edited February 9, 2015 by No Nicolaitans DaveW 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 Genevanpreacher,  I am not the one who is "mixed up". The Jews (and the nation of Israel) are God's chosen people. This is what God's Word says:  Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;Deuteronomy 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.  God did judge, is judging, and will judge His chosen people (the Jews and the nation of Israel) for their disOBedience to His commandments and their rejection of Christ....AND He will also judge those "that hate him (the Jew) to their face, to destroy them: (the Jews)..."  (Deuteronomy 7:10)   BTW, being a Jew, I take offense at your statement about the Jews.   I mean no offense to you as a Christian. If you want to push your Jewry to the front of the class, that's your prOBlem, and it is a prOBlem, as touching the doctrines of who is who in the scriptures.  God's promises were to those in this verse - (your quote)  "Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"  And God was always in reference to those who loved him.  Acts 10 -  34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaveW Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 Regardless of one's belief, the fact is...the Jews are a special people; they are God's chosen people. Despite their "spiritual condition", God loves them. God made promises the THEM specifically. However, there appears to be a quandary... 1. God has broken (or will break) his promises to Israel.a- Therefore, God is a liar. b- Therefore, God is a sinner. 2. God's promises to Israel weren't actually to Israel; they were to the church.a- Therefore, the land promised to Israel (and all of the blessings associated therewith) actually belongs to me. b- However, which tribe do I belong to? I need to know so that I will live in the appropriate section of the land. c- When have 10 men grabbed my skirt to go with me to Jerusalem because they heard the Lord was with me (since I'm a Jew)? d- However, if this were true (the church is Israel), that would still make God a liar and a sinner since all of the physical blessings promised to Israel haven't happened in my life...since I'm a Jew. 3. God is God; he is holy and righteous. Therefore, he can't lie; as such, his is not a sinner, and he will keep his promises that he made specifically to the Jews.a- Therefore, he will fulfil every promise that he made to Israel...down to the last jot and tittle. b- Israel is loved by God despite their "spiritual condition"...as is all of mankind by the way. Why is it so hard to accept that God made promises to Israel that were meant for Israel and Israel alone? Why is there even a discussion about this? God made promises...to Israel. He's God, and God doesn't lie. He can keep a promise that he made to Israel just as easily as he can keep the promise that "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". God said that he would bring Israel back into the land...a promise that wasn't contingent upon their "spiritual condition" by the way. He just said that he would do it. As a matter of fact, he also said that it would be AFTER they were back in the land...that THEN he would give them a new heart and be their God forever. God doesn't need an "out" (the church is Israel) in order to fulfil his word or promises. He's God, and he can do anything and everything that he said he could (and would) do...exactly the way he said that he would do it. The system won't allow me to like this post more than once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Invicta Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 We were graft in the body of believers (branches of the true vine). We all, as believers in God (in Spirit in the O.T.), and the Lord Jesus (God in flesh in the N.T.) and he made of 'two', one body of believers.  It's not that Israel was 'something else' in the O.T., true believers were always the church, they just enlarged their 'nationality' to include us as gentile believers in Jesus as God in human form.  Acts 7 - 38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:  I don't see why that is so hard to see.   As my mum used to say, "There is none do deaf as those who won't hear and none so blind as those who won't see." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted February 10, 2015 Members Share Posted February 10, 2015  I am not the one who is "mixed up". The Jews (and the nation of Israel) are God's chosen people.    The nation of Israel, (commonly referred to as the Jews), were a special conduit that the Lord used, and that for one purpose, to give the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ to the world. The blessings upon them as an OBedient people were only up to when the Lord had accomplished his purpose in them. No longer. For as we all know - there is neither Jew nor Gentile anymore, anyone can be a child of Abraham, and that by the faith of Abraham. Therefore all are included in the 'Israel' that will be saved, for we know the scripture says - in Romans 9-  6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.  You can't deny the word of God. Potatochip 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Popular Post No Nicolaitans Posted February 10, 2015 Members Popular Post Share Posted February 10, 2015 Matthew 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  WILL build...future tense.  The Lord Jesus Christ didn't say, "I will continue building my church". He didn't say, "I will finish building the church that I started building in the Old Testament."    The blessings upon them as an OBedient people were only up to when the Lord had accomplished his purpose in them. No longer.   No, the blessings upon them as an OBedient people were only up to when they were disOBedient, and the punishment was for them to be driven from the land (among other physical punishments).   for we know the scripture says - in Romans 9-  6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.  You can't deny the word of God.  Sir, you need to read the whole chapter. You might then check Romans 11...especially this part...  Romans 11:25-28 25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from JacOB: 27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.  So if the church is Israel, then according to Romans 11:26...after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, all Israel of the church will be saved? And the Deliverer shall turn away ungodliness from JacOB the church? And then in verse 27, God will take away their the church's sins? And in verse 28, they the church are enemies for the gospel's sake, but they the church are beloved for the father's sake (even though they are enemies to the gospel)?  Or...does Israel mean Israel, and the church means the church? LindaR, Alan, Jim_Alaska and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Invicta Posted February 10, 2015 Members Share Posted February 10, 2015 Yes all Israel will be saved when they are graffed back in. Genevanpreacher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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