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Pastor Scott Markle

Concerning Daniel 9:24-27

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Reposted from another thread - I was writing this at the same time as Pastor Scott.

 

 

DaveW:

Dan 9
 24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 
 25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
 26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
 27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

First thing:
This prophecy is to do with "thy people and thy holy city."
The whole 70 weeks. Israel is the people, Jerusalem is the city. This prophecy has nothing to do with the churches. Vs 24 states that plainly.

I won't disagree with that, although, of course, the church benefits from the finished saving work of Jesus detailed in Dan. 9:24

The timing starts from the command to build the city.
This gives us the start point of this countdown.
Smarter men than I have calculated the end of the 69th weeks of years to precisely coincide with the death of Christ.

Which of the 4 commands? 2 were before AD 500. A suggested (accepted?) date for the 3rd decree is 457 BC - Ezra 7:11-26 taking us to AD 26 for the end of the 69th week when Messiah was anointed.  

Coincidentally vs 26 says after the 69th week Messiah is cut off. This is OBviously by the context referring to the death of Christ - no other event fits the description, and the timing from the decree works too.

Note "after" so the prophesied events may be during the 70th week or beyond. Specifically the cutting off of the Messiah & the resultant destruction.  

Vs 26 continues on to note that the city and the sanctuary are destroyed, there is a flood, and a war of desolation. 
All this happens after the 69th week begins.

We know this because the next and only other week mentioned - this must be the 70th week - is in vs 27.

Not necessarily - AFTER the 69th week, so could also be after the 70th week. 

 

Here a covenant is confirmed for a week. This is the final week of the 70.
In the midst of that week the sacrifice and OBlation are caused to cease.
No!  THE covenant is confirmed, not A covenant. The sacrifices & OBlations relating to the faithful administration were fulfilled, & brought to a conclusion by the new covenant sacrifice in Jesus blood, inaugurated at the last supper. At Calvary the temple veil was rent by God - the way into the most holy place was opened. The could never be another acceptable sacrifice. The sacrifices continued in ignorance, & in defiance of Messiah, but that did not annul either the prophecy or the finished work of Christ. 

This is the plain order of events according to Dan 9.
You will note that the events of vs 26 happen after the end of week 69 but before the beginning of week 70.
No. you've added that timing to the prophecy.  
The final week can not possibly be an I start continuation from week 69, for there must be time for the vs 26 events to occur.

You will note that although the gap is written into to passage, there is no indication of the duration of the gap in Dan 9.
The existence of the gap is evident, the timing of the gap is evident (after week 69 ends), but the duration of the gap is not.
There is no gap written INTO the passage. The time for the events after week 69 are not ipecified in v.26, What we can reason is that the prophesied destruction is the consequence of the cutting off of the Messiah. We do know that Jesus was crucified about 3 1/2 years after his baptism, so that takes us into the middle of the 70th week, but the destruction an unspecified time after the cutting off. 

Note : the ceasing of the sacrifice and OBlation CAN NOT be referring to the death of Christ as dome false teachers promote, as the sacrifice etc continued while t he Temple was in existence. It does not refer to the effectiveness of the sacrifice, but the practice.

In your opinion. 
This means that for those to make the death of Christ the middle of the 70th week for that reason MUST have a gap as well, for we know the sacrifice continued TO BE PERFORMED after Christ's death.

No need - AFTER the 69th week. The 70th week by a literal calculation ends around AD 33, which roughly coincides with the martyrdom of Stephen, who declared those who rejected the Holy Spirit "uncircumcised." The old covenant, marked by circumcision, was absolutely ended. Acts 7:48-53 
Note further that Daniel makes no reference to "this generation".

The simple and plain reading of Daniel 9 denotes a gap between the 69th week and the 70th week.

Deleted ..... you must come to the conclusion that vs 26 happens after week 69 and before week 70.
That is what it says.
No.
Deleted....... 

God is gracious, so instead of immediately destroying the city at the end of the 70th week, with those who rejected their Messiah he allowed then 40 years to repent. But that 40 years came to an end. Psalm 95:7-11 quoted in Heb. 3. 

 

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The understanding/interpretation comes down to whether we can understand the 70 weeks prophecy as being fulfilled in 490 years, apart from the final prophecy of destruction,

or 

Should the prophecy really have been 69 weeks - 483 years - with an separate 7 year prophecy not related to the previous 483 years?

 

I believe OT prophecy should be understood in terms of NT fulfilment. 

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From the Matthew 24 thread.

 

Covenanter wrote

And no, Invicta, NOT 2,000 years of the GREAT tribulation because it was the sentence specifically against "this generation." That pouring out of God's wrath was completed:

 

 

 

 

I agree that the prophecy refererd to that generation, but remember the Jews extended that when they said "Mt 27:25  Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

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From the Matthew 24 thread.

 

 

I agree that the prophecy refererd to that generation, but remember the Jews extended that when they said "Mt 27:25  Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

That self-curse was promptly cancelled at Pentecost:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

It is unthinkable that God would punish 100 generations of Jews. They are in the same state under the Gospel as the rest of mankind. Come & welcome! 

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That self-curse was promptly cancelled at Pentecost:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

It is unthinkable that God would punish 100 generations of Jews. They are in the same state under the Gospel as the rest of mankind. Come & welcome! 

 

Possibly, but that also would apply to the Jews in AD 66-70.

Edited by Invicta

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The 70th week (of years) is for the purification of Israel.  Only those who survive until the end of the 7 year period will be fit to serve their Messiah. 

The Messiah of Israel ("Jesus") will set up his throne in Jerusalem and each of the Tribes will be assigned their portion in the Holy Land (Israel).

OBviously, the Body of Christ (ie: Church) will have no part in this final "week" of Daniel's prophecy.  Many will be deceived by the False Messiah.

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The 70th week (of years) is for the purification of Israel.  Only those who survive until the end of the 7 year period will be fit to serve their Messiah. 

The Messiah of Israel ("Jesus") will set up his throne in Jerusalem and each of the Tribes will be assigned their portion in the Holy Land (Israel).

OBviously, the Body of Christ (ie: Church) will have no part in this final "week" of Daniel's prophecy.  Many will be deceived by the False Messiah.

 

Not the false Messiah, but the Antichrist, the false Christ.

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Not the false Messiah, but the Antichrist, the false Christ.

Don't get hung up on semantics.  False Messiah and False Christ/Antichrist are one and the same thing.

 

MESSIAH: (anointed one). A prophetic name for Jesus; the same as Christ. Messiah (Mashiach) is the Hebrew word for Anointed One; Christ is the Greek word.

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The 70th week (of years) is for the purification of Israel.  Only those who survive until the end of the 7 year period will be fit to serve their Messiah. 

The Messiah of Israel ("Jesus") will set up his throne in Jerusalem and each of the Tribes will be assigned their portion in the Holy Land (Israel).

OBviously, the Body of Christ (ie: Church) will have no part in this final "week" of Daniel's prophecy.  Many will be deceived by the False Messiah.

 

I'm trying to understand the reasoning ....

Gabriel outlines the prophecy in Dan. 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

That, surely, is a summary of the saving work of Jesus at Calvary. The idea of purifying Israel some other way during a yet future 70th week destroys the NT teaching of Jesus FINISHED saving work. It amounts to another gospel, which is NOT another. Gal. 1:6-9

 

You are making Gabriel preach another gospel. 

 

An interpretation system that requires separation of weeks 69 & 70 by 2000 years must be called into question.

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I'm trying to understand the reasoning ....

Gabriel outlines the prophecy in Dan. 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The "Holy of Holies" (qodesh-qodesh) doesn't even exist at this time.  There are clear passages in the N.T. that state that the (3rd) Temple must be built.  It is this temple that the False-Messiah (man of sin) will pollute with his presence, proclaiming that He is God.

 

The Second Temple was polluted/desecrated by the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes.in 168 BC and was later cleansed by what we refer to as Hanukkah.  The term "most Holy" is the Hebrew qodesh-qodesh  (ie: Holy-Holy, or Holy of Holies).

 

In the context of Hanukkah, Jews clearly understand the necessity of the ceremonial cleansing of the Holy Place & the Holy of Holies in order to rededicate the Temple.  It's very easy to understand Daniel's meaning here.  Jesus cannot reenter the Temple to serve as Priest and King until the place is cleansed

Edited by beameup

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The "Holy of Holies" (qodesh-qodesh) doesn't even exist at this time.  There are clear passages in the N.T. that state that the (3rd) Temple must be built.  It is this temple that the False-Messiah (man of sin) will pollute with his presence, proclaiming that He is God.

 

The Second Temple was polluted/desecrated by the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes.in 168 BC and was later cleansed by what we refer to as Hanukkah.  The term "most Holy" is the Hebrew qodesh-qodesh  (ie: Holy-Holy, or Holy of Holies).

 

What or who is holier than The Lord Jesus Christ.  He was anointed at His baptism.

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I'm trying to understand the reasoning ....

Gabriel outlines the prophecy in Dan. 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

That, surely, is a summary of the saving work of Jesus at Calvary. The idea of purifying Israel some other way during a yet future 70th week destroys the NT teaching of Jesus FINISHED saving work. It amounts to another gospel, which is NOT another. Gal. 1:6-9

 

You are making Gabriel preach another gospel. 

 

An interpretation system that requires separation of weeks 69 & 70 by 2000 years must be called into question.

 

That question is a response to Scott's post - particularly points 1-6. 

 

This is why so many of us are simply worn out with attempting to have any rational discussion with you and your cohorts on the subject of prophecy.  

Pastor Markle did an excellent jOB of explaining our position on the 70th week. 

You have not posted ONE RESPONSE to his very detailed explanation.  

 

Now, 

You have accused us of preaching "another gospel."

I preach the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the only salvation for the lost sinner.

I am sure Pastor Markle preaches the same gospel.

 

Thus,

YOU HAVE FALSELY ACCUSED US.

 

The way God deals with a NATION (i.e. Israel) in a corporate manner is far different from how God deals with each individual within that nation.  The 70th week, which is yet future, is God's chastisement upon the corporate NATION of Israel, and then that corporate NATION of Israel is exalted during the yet future 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ upon this present earth.

 

Your (private) interpretation completely ignores, overlooks, dismisses, and destroys over 50% of the OT prophecies concerning the corporate NATION of Israel, as they have not yet been fulfilled, literally, in their entirety.

 

In Christ,

 

I reposted my response to DaveW in response to Scott's post. I have read it, several times. It would be unwieldy to post an in-line response, so I raise specific points. In this case, it seems clear that Dan. 9:24 speaks of 70 weeks as a specific period of time, & details the saving work of Christ.

 

I am happy that you & Scott "preach the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the only salvation for the lost sinner" but do not believe that ethnic, national Israel is a separate entity with what amounts to a Gospel distinct from that we preach to lost sinners today. Jew & Gentile together comprise the redeemed people of God, a holy nation.  

 

Gen. 12:3 Gen. 22:18 Isa. 49:5-6 1 Peter 2:4-10 

 

The promises & prophecies of the OT concerning Israel are fulfilled in & by Jesus Christ for all of Israel who respond to the Gospel preached in the name of Jesus, and for all believing Gentiles who are numbered with them. The only great separation at the end of time when Jesus returns for resurrection & judgement is of lost & saved. 

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I reposted my response to DaveW in response to Scott's post. I have read it, several times. It would be unwieldy to post an in-line response, so I raise specific points. In this case, it seems clear that Dan. 9:24 speaks of 70 weeks as a specific period of time, & details the saving work of Christ.

 

Pastor Markle explained v. 24 within the context of the entire passage.

Apparently you prefer to pluck the verse from its explanatory context.

(somehow, I am not surprised.)

 

I am happy that you & Scott "preach the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the only salvation for the lost sinner" but do not believe that ethnic, national Israel is a separate entity with what amounts to a Gospel distinct from that we preach to lost sinners today. Jew & Gentile together comprise the redeemed people of God, a holy nation.

 

The distinction that you are failing to comprehend is that the way God deals with a corporate nation - any nation, whether it be Jew or Gentile - is far different from the way God deals with an individual - any individual, Jew or Gentile.  An individual can experience the New Birth - salvation through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.  A nation as a corporate body cannot be "born again."  If the saved individuals within a given national entity have enough influence and political power, they can help shape that nation's moral compass and direction.  America is adrift because we have lost our Spiritual, Christian, and Biblical foundations.  God's judgement will fall on our nation because our nation as a corporate entity, beginning with our political leadership - federal, state, and local - have abandoned the Biblical plan for governing, and have encouraged unbiblical behaviour in exchange for more tax money and less blackmail - whether real or political.  

 

God's dealing with the corporate nation of Israel as a group is different from the Gentiles simply because God expects more from them - they are God's chosen people, they were given the written word of God, and they were given the promises and unconditional covenants of the OT, which have yet to be fulfilled in their entirety.

 

It is as clear as day for any Bible reader, UNLESS, you spiritualize everything into a NT context.  We are to "rightly DIVIDE" not "rightly GLUE" everything together.  Things that are not the same are not equal.  Israel is not the same as the Church.  Never has been - never will be.  And that is the basis of your confusion on end times prophecy.  We recognize that distinction.  You try to blend the two distinct entities together.

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I reposted my response to DaveW in response to Scott's post. I have read it, several times. It would be unwieldy to post an in-line response, so I raise specific points. In this case, it seems clear that Dan. 9:24 speaks of 70 weeks as a specific period of time, & details the saving work of Christ.

 

From my perspective, you have not made any direct attempts at responding to Pastor Markle's post.  Here is a tremendous opportunity for you to dissect his points, and allow him to respond to you in kind.  Your failure to have an open dialogue with him directly on this issue does not speak well of you, in my book.  I cannot for the life of me understand why you would pass up such a great opportunity...

 

I guess the same thing goes for Geneva and Invicta.

 

You guys simply cannot say that our position has not been presented clearly, thoroughly and Scripturally.  

So the next time this topic comes up, I will just put a link back to this forum and let you deal with it then.

 

:popcorn:

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From my perspective, you have not made any direct attempts at responding to Pastor Markle's post.  Here is a tremendous opportunity for you to dissect his points, and allow him to respond to you in kind.  Your failure to have an open dialogue with him directly on this issue does not speak well of you, in my book.  I cannot for the life of me understand why you would pass up such a great opportunity...

 

I guess the same thing goes for Geneva and Invicta.

 

You guys simply cannot say that our position has not been presented clearly, thoroughly and Scripturally.  

So the next time this topic comes up, I will just put a link back to this forum and let you deal with it then.

 

:popcorn:

 

I have been intending to answer the points in the OP, but as has been said it is a long post and will take a time to answer and I just have  not had time to post that. I will just make one point.

 

Why do you say the prince who is to come is still future, when the prince did come and his people did destroy the temple and the city?

 

Oh and another question.

 

What do you thing Paul meant when he said "All Israel will be saved"? 

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I have been intending to answer the points in the OP, but as has been said it is a long post and will take a time to answer and I just have  not had time to post that. I will just make one point.

 

Why do you say the prince who is to come is still future, when the prince did come and his people did destroy the temple and the city?

 

Oh and another question.

 

What do you thing Paul meant when he said "All Israel will be saved"? 

Can a prophecy be limited to only ONE fulfillment?  Can a prophecy have more than one application?  Certainly the Scriptures bear out the fact that some - many - prophecies have both a near and far application/fulfillment in mind.  

 

Considering the full scope of Pastor Markle's OP, it should be clear that the 70th week is set aside by itself, and as such, the events of that week are yet future.  There may have been partial fulfillments, which I would say are types or pictures of things yet to come.  Yes, Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, and the temple was destroyed, and so on.  However, these historical events do not necessitate a complete fulfillment of the prophecy.  The fact that not EVERYTHING was fulfilled in their entirety - that is, the entire scope of other OT prophecies that are related to these events - should be sufficient evidence for us to realize that whatever happened in 70 AD was NOT the COMPLETE fulfillment of the OT prophecies, but only a picture of something that is yet future.  

 

When Paul said, "all Israel shall be saved," he means that when the Lord returns visibly to this earth to establish His Kingdom, that all Israel will be saved - that is delivered - from the certain imminent destruction and genocide the Antichrist has in mind.  There will not be very many Jews left at the end of the 7 year Tribulation (the 70th week) because the Antichrist and his demonic government will be annihilating them left and right.  It will make Hitler's holocaust look like a picnic.  When Christ returns with His army (Rev. 19) He will destroy the Antichrist, and literally save Israel from certain destruction, and exalt them to the Head of All nations, with Jesus Christ HImself ruling from Jerusalem "with a rod of iron."  That is the literal reading of Scripture.

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Can a prophecy be limited to only ONE fulfillment?  Can a prophecy have more than one application?  Certainly the Scriptures bear out the fact that some - many - prophecies have both a near and far application/fulfillment in mind.  

 

Considering the full scope of Pastor Markle's OP, it should be clear that the 70th week is set aside by itself, and as such, the events of that week are yet future.  There may have been partial fulfillments, which I would say are types or pictures of things yet to come.  Yes, Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, and the temple was destroyed, and so on.  However, these historical events do not necessitate a complete fulfillment of the prophecy.  The fact that not EVERYTHING was fulfilled in their entirety - that is, the entire scope of other OT prophecies that are related to these events - should be sufficient evidence for us to realize that whatever happened in 70 AD was NOT the COMPLETE fulfillment of the OT prophecies, but only a picture of something that is yet future.  

 

When Paul said, "all Israel shall be saved," he means that when the Lord returns visibly to this earth to establish His Kingdom, that all Israel will be saved - that is delivered - from the certain imminent destruction and genocide the Antichrist has in mind.  There will not be very many Jews left at the end of the 7 year Tribulation (the 70th week) because the Antichrist and his demonic government will be annihilating them left and right.  It will make Hitler's holocaust look like a picnic.  When Christ returns with His army (Rev. 19) He will destroy the Antichrist, and literally save Israel from certain destruction, and exalt them to the Head of All nations, with Jesus Christ HImself ruling from Jerusalem "with a rod of iron."  That is the literal reading of Scripture.

 t the Jews will be restored to the church.  There is one church from Adam till Christ comes again. I believe that Christ will come again for salvation of the saints and Judgment on his enemies as in the quotes I posted from John's gospel regarding the last day.

 

See also 1 John 2:28

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From my perspective, you have not made any direct attempts at responding to Pastor Markle's post.  Here is a tremendous opportunity for you to dissect his points, and allow him to respond to you in kind.  Your failure to have an open dialogue with him directly on this issue does not speak well of you, in my book.  I cannot for the life of me understand why you would pass up such a great opportunity...

 

I guess the same thing goes for Geneva and Invicta.

 

You guys simply cannot say that our position has not been presented clearly, thoroughly and Scripturally.  

So the next time this topic comes up, I will just put a link back to this forum and let you deal with it then.

 

:popcorn:

 

I have been busy with winter stuff and church. But thanks for thinking of me while I am away. Speaks well of you.

I intend on posting sometime soon. Have more important things than revealing false views of scripture online right now.

 

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

 
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Edited by Genevanpreacher

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