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Reposted from another thread - I was writing this at the same time as Pastor Scott.

 

 

DaveW:

Dan 9
 24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 
 25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
 26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
 27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

First thing:
This prophecy is to do with "thy people and thy holy city."
The whole 70 weeks. Israel is the people, Jerusalem is the city. This prophecy has nothing to do with the churches. Vs 24 states that plainly.

I won't disagree with that, although, of course, the church benefits from the finished saving work of Jesus detailed in Dan. 9:24

The timing starts from the command to build the city.
This gives us the start point of this countdown.
Smarter men than I have calculated the end of the 69th weeks of years to precisely coincide with the death of Christ.

Which of the 4 commands? 2 were before AD 500. A suggested (accepted?) date for the 3rd decree is 457 BC - Ezra 7:11-26 taking us to AD 26 for the end of the 69th week when Messiah was anointed.  

Coincidentally vs 26 says after the 69th week Messiah is cut off. This is OBviously by the context referring to the death of Christ - no other event fits the description, and the timing from the decree works too.

Note "after" so the prophesied events may be during the 70th week or beyond. Specifically the cutting off of the Messiah & the resultant destruction.  

Vs 26 continues on to note that the city and the sanctuary are destroyed, there is a flood, and a war of desolation. 
All this happens after the 69th week begins.

We know this because the next and only other week mentioned - this must be the 70th week - is in vs 27.

Not necessarily - AFTER the 69th week, so could also be after the 70th week. 

 

Here a covenant is confirmed for a week. This is the final week of the 70.
In the midst of that week the sacrifice and OBlation are caused to cease.
No!  THE covenant is confirmed, not A covenant. The sacrifices & OBlations relating to the faithful administration were fulfilled, & brought to a conclusion by the new covenant sacrifice in Jesus blood, inaugurated at the last supper. At Calvary the temple veil was rent by God - the way into the most holy place was opened. The could never be another acceptable sacrifice. The sacrifices continued in ignorance, & in defiance of Messiah, but that did not annul either the prophecy or the finished work of Christ. 

This is the plain order of events according to Dan 9.
You will note that the events of vs 26 happen after the end of week 69 but before the beginning of week 70.
No. you've added that timing to the prophecy.  
The final week can not possibly be an I start continuation from week 69, for there must be time for the vs 26 events to occur.

You will note that although the gap is written into to passage, there is no indication of the duration of the gap in Dan 9.
The existence of the gap is evident, the timing of the gap is evident (after week 69 ends), but the duration of the gap is not.
There is no gap written INTO the passage. The time for the events after week 69 are not ipecified in v.26, What we can reason is that the prophesied destruction is the consequence of the cutting off of the Messiah. We do know that Jesus was crucified about 3 1/2 years after his baptism, so that takes us into the middle of the 70th week, but the destruction an unspecified time after the cutting off. 

Note : the ceasing of the sacrifice and OBlation CAN NOT be referring to the death of Christ as dome false teachers promote, as the sacrifice etc continued while t he Temple was in existence. It does not refer to the effectiveness of the sacrifice, but the practice.

In your opinion. 
This means that for those to make the death of Christ the middle of the 70th week for that reason MUST have a gap as well, for we know the sacrifice continued TO BE PERFORMED after Christ's death.

No need - AFTER the 69th week. The 70th week by a literal calculation ends around AD 33, which roughly coincides with the martyrdom of Stephen, who declared those who rejected the Holy Spirit "uncircumcised." The old covenant, marked by circumcision, was absolutely ended. Acts 7:48-53 
Note further that Daniel makes no reference to "this generation".

The simple and plain reading of Daniel 9 denotes a gap between the 69th week and the 70th week.

Deleted ..... you must come to the conclusion that vs 26 happens after week 69 and before week 70.
That is what it says.
No.
Deleted....... 

God is gracious, so instead of immediately destroying the city at the end of the 70th week, with those who rejected their Messiah he allowed then 40 years to repent. But that 40 years came to an end. Psalm 95:7-11 quoted in Heb. 3. 

 

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The understanding/interpretation comes down to whether we can understand the 70 weeks prophecy as being fulfilled in 490 years, apart from the final prophecy of destruction,

or 

Should the prophecy really have been 69 weeks - 483 years - with an separate 7 year prophecy not related to the previous 483 years?

 

I believe OT prophecy should be understood in terms of NT fulfilment. 

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From the Matthew 24 thread.

 

Covenanter wrote

And no, Invicta, NOT 2,000 years of the GREAT tribulation because it was the sentence specifically against "this generation." That pouring out of God's wrath was completed:

 

 

 

 

I agree that the prophecy refererd to that generation, but remember the Jews extended that when they said "Mt 27:25  Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

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From the Matthew 24 thread.

 

 

I agree that the prophecy refererd to that generation, but remember the Jews extended that when they said "Mt 27:25  Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

That self-curse was promptly cancelled at Pentecost:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

It is unthinkable that God would punish 100 generations of Jews. They are in the same state under the Gospel as the rest of mankind. Come & welcome! 

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That self-curse was promptly cancelled at Pentecost:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

It is unthinkable that God would punish 100 generations of Jews. They are in the same state under the Gospel as the rest of mankind. Come & welcome! 

 

Possibly, but that also would apply to the Jews in AD 66-70.

Edited by Invicta
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The 70th week (of years) is for the purification of Israel.  Only those who survive until the end of the 7 year period will be fit to serve their Messiah. 

The Messiah of Israel ("Jesus") will set up his throne in Jerusalem and each of the Tribes will be assigned their portion in the Holy Land (Israel).

OBviously, the Body of Christ (ie: Church) will have no part in this final "week" of Daniel's prophecy.  Many will be deceived by the False Messiah.

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The 70th week (of years) is for the purification of Israel.  Only those who survive until the end of the 7 year period will be fit to serve their Messiah. 

The Messiah of Israel ("Jesus") will set up his throne in Jerusalem and each of the Tribes will be assigned their portion in the Holy Land (Israel).

OBviously, the Body of Christ (ie: Church) will have no part in this final "week" of Daniel's prophecy.  Many will be deceived by the False Messiah.

 

Not the false Messiah, but the Antichrist, the false Christ.

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Not the false Messiah, but the Antichrist, the false Christ.

Don't get hung up on semantics.  False Messiah and False Christ/Antichrist are one and the same thing.

 

MESSIAH: (anointed one). A prophetic name for Jesus; the same as Christ. Messiah (Mashiach) is the Hebrew word for Anointed One; Christ is the Greek word.

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The 70th week (of years) is for the purification of Israel.  Only those who survive until the end of the 7 year period will be fit to serve their Messiah. 

The Messiah of Israel ("Jesus") will set up his throne in Jerusalem and each of the Tribes will be assigned their portion in the Holy Land (Israel).

OBviously, the Body of Christ (ie: Church) will have no part in this final "week" of Daniel's prophecy.  Many will be deceived by the False Messiah.

 

I'm trying to understand the reasoning ....

Gabriel outlines the prophecy in Dan. 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

That, surely, is a summary of the saving work of Jesus at Calvary. The idea of purifying Israel some other way during a yet future 70th week destroys the NT teaching of Jesus FINISHED saving work. It amounts to another gospel, which is NOT another. Gal. 1:6-9

 

You are making Gabriel preach another gospel. 

 

An interpretation system that requires separation of weeks 69 & 70 by 2000 years must be called into question.

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I'm trying to understand the reasoning ....

Gabriel outlines the prophecy in Dan. 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The "Holy of Holies" (qodesh-qodesh) doesn't even exist at this time.  There are clear passages in the N.T. that state that the (3rd) Temple must be built.  It is this temple that the False-Messiah (man of sin) will pollute with his presence, proclaiming that He is God.

 

The Second Temple was polluted/desecrated by the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes.in 168 BC and was later cleansed by what we refer to as Hanukkah.  The term "most Holy" is the Hebrew qodesh-qodesh  (ie: Holy-Holy, or Holy of Holies).

 

In the context of Hanukkah, Jews clearly understand the necessity of the ceremonial cleansing of the Holy Place & the Holy of Holies in order to rededicate the Temple.  It's very easy to understand Daniel's meaning here.  Jesus cannot reenter the Temple to serve as Priest and King until the place is cleansed

Edited by beameup
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The "Holy of Holies" (qodesh-qodesh) doesn't even exist at this time.  There are clear passages in the N.T. that state that the (3rd) Temple must be built.  It is this temple that the False-Messiah (man of sin) will pollute with his presence, proclaiming that He is God.

 

The Second Temple was polluted/desecrated by the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes.in 168 BC and was later cleansed by what we refer to as Hanukkah.  The term "most Holy" is the Hebrew qodesh-qodesh  (ie: Holy-Holy, or Holy of Holies).

 

What or who is holier than The Lord Jesus Christ.  He was anointed at His baptism.

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I'm trying to understand the reasoning ....

Gabriel outlines the prophecy in Dan. 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

That, surely, is a summary of the saving work of Jesus at Calvary. The idea of purifying Israel some other way during a yet future 70th week destroys the NT teaching of Jesus FINISHED saving work. It amounts to another gospel, which is NOT another. Gal. 1:6-9

 

You are making Gabriel preach another gospel. 

 

An interpretation system that requires separation of weeks 69 & 70 by 2000 years must be called into question.

 

That question is a response to Scott's post - particularly points 1-6. 

 

This is why so many of us are simply worn out with attempting to have any rational discussion with you and your cohorts on the subject of prophecy.  

Pastor Markle did an excellent jOB of explaining our position on the 70th week. 

You have not posted ONE RESPONSE to his very detailed explanation.  

 

Now, 

You have accused us of preaching "another gospel."

I preach the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the only salvation for the lost sinner.

I am sure Pastor Markle preaches the same gospel.

 

Thus,

YOU HAVE FALSELY ACCUSED US.

 

The way God deals with a NATION (i.e. Israel) in a corporate manner is far different from how God deals with each individual within that nation.  The 70th week, which is yet future, is God's chastisement upon the corporate NATION of Israel, and then that corporate NATION of Israel is exalted during the yet future 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ upon this present earth.

 

Your (private) interpretation completely ignores, overlooks, dismisses, and destroys over 50% of the OT prophecies concerning the corporate NATION of Israel, as they have not yet been fulfilled, literally, in their entirety.

 

In Christ,

 

I reposted my response to DaveW in response to Scott's post. I have read it, several times. It would be unwieldy to post an in-line response, so I raise specific points. In this case, it seems clear that Dan. 9:24 speaks of 70 weeks as a specific period of time, & details the saving work of Christ.

 

I am happy that you & Scott "preach the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the only salvation for the lost sinner" but do not believe that ethnic, national Israel is a separate entity with what amounts to a Gospel distinct from that we preach to lost sinners today. Jew & Gentile together comprise the redeemed people of God, a holy nation.  

 

Gen. 12:3 Gen. 22:18 Isa. 49:5-6 1 Peter 2:4-10 

 

The promises & prophecies of the OT concerning Israel are fulfilled in & by Jesus Christ for all of Israel who respond to the Gospel preached in the name of Jesus, and for all believing Gentiles who are numbered with them. The only great separation at the end of time when Jesus returns for resurrection & judgement is of lost & saved. 

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I reposted my response to DaveW in response to Scott's post. I have read it, several times. It would be unwieldy to post an in-line response, so I raise specific points. In this case, it seems clear that Dan. 9:24 speaks of 70 weeks as a specific period of time, & details the saving work of Christ.

 

Pastor Markle explained v. 24 within the context of the entire passage.

Apparently you prefer to pluck the verse from its explanatory context.

(somehow, I am not surprised.)

 

I am happy that you & Scott "preach the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the only salvation for the lost sinner" but do not believe that ethnic, national Israel is a separate entity with what amounts to a Gospel distinct from that we preach to lost sinners today. Jew & Gentile together comprise the redeemed people of God, a holy nation.

 

The distinction that you are failing to comprehend is that the way God deals with a corporate nation - any nation, whether it be Jew or Gentile - is far different from the way God deals with an individual - any individual, Jew or Gentile.  An individual can experience the New Birth - salvation through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.  A nation as a corporate body cannot be "born again."  If the saved individuals within a given national entity have enough influence and political power, they can help shape that nation's moral compass and direction.  America is adrift because we have lost our Spiritual, Christian, and Biblical foundations.  God's judgement will fall on our nation because our nation as a corporate entity, beginning with our political leadership - federal, state, and local - have abandoned the Biblical plan for governing, and have encouraged unbiblical behaviour in exchange for more tax money and less blackmail - whether real or political.  

 

God's dealing with the corporate nation of Israel as a group is different from the Gentiles simply because God expects more from them - they are God's chosen people, they were given the written word of God, and they were given the promises and unconditional covenants of the OT, which have yet to be fulfilled in their entirety.

 

It is as clear as day for any Bible reader, UNLESS, you spiritualize everything into a NT context.  We are to "rightly DIVIDE" not "rightly GLUE" everything together.  Things that are not the same are not equal.  Israel is not the same as the Church.  Never has been - never will be.  And that is the basis of your confusion on end times prophecy.  We recognize that distinction.  You try to blend the two distinct entities together.

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I reposted my response to DaveW in response to Scott's post. I have read it, several times. It would be unwieldy to post an in-line response, so I raise specific points. In this case, it seems clear that Dan. 9:24 speaks of 70 weeks as a specific period of time, & details the saving work of Christ.

 

From my perspective, you have not made any direct attempts at responding to Pastor Markle's post.  Here is a tremendous opportunity for you to dissect his points, and allow him to respond to you in kind.  Your failure to have an open dialogue with him directly on this issue does not speak well of you, in my book.  I cannot for the life of me understand why you would pass up such a great opportunity...

 

I guess the same thing goes for Geneva and Invicta.

 

You guys simply cannot say that our position has not been presented clearly, thoroughly and Scripturally.  

So the next time this topic comes up, I will just put a link back to this forum and let you deal with it then.

 

:popcorn:

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From my perspective, you have not made any direct attempts at responding to Pastor Markle's post.  Here is a tremendous opportunity for you to dissect his points, and allow him to respond to you in kind.  Your failure to have an open dialogue with him directly on this issue does not speak well of you, in my book.  I cannot for the life of me understand why you would pass up such a great opportunity...

 

I guess the same thing goes for Geneva and Invicta.

 

You guys simply cannot say that our position has not been presented clearly, thoroughly and Scripturally.  

So the next time this topic comes up, I will just put a link back to this forum and let you deal with it then.

 

:popcorn:

 

I have been intending to answer the points in the OP, but as has been said it is a long post and will take a time to answer and I just have  not had time to post that. I will just make one point.

 

Why do you say the prince who is to come is still future, when the prince did come and his people did destroy the temple and the city?

 

Oh and another question.

 

What do you thing Paul meant when he said "All Israel will be saved"? 

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I have been intending to answer the points in the OP, but as has been said it is a long post and will take a time to answer and I just have  not had time to post that. I will just make one point.

 

Why do you say the prince who is to come is still future, when the prince did come and his people did destroy the temple and the city?

 

Oh and another question.

 

What do you thing Paul meant when he said "All Israel will be saved"? 

Can a prophecy be limited to only ONE fulfillment?  Can a prophecy have more than one application?  Certainly the Scriptures bear out the fact that some - many - prophecies have both a near and far application/fulfillment in mind.  

 

Considering the full scope of Pastor Markle's OP, it should be clear that the 70th week is set aside by itself, and as such, the events of that week are yet future.  There may have been partial fulfillments, which I would say are types or pictures of things yet to come.  Yes, Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, and the temple was destroyed, and so on.  However, these historical events do not necessitate a complete fulfillment of the prophecy.  The fact that not EVERYTHING was fulfilled in their entirety - that is, the entire scope of other OT prophecies that are related to these events - should be sufficient evidence for us to realize that whatever happened in 70 AD was NOT the COMPLETE fulfillment of the OT prophecies, but only a picture of something that is yet future.  

 

When Paul said, "all Israel shall be saved," he means that when the Lord returns visibly to this earth to establish His Kingdom, that all Israel will be saved - that is delivered - from the certain imminent destruction and genocide the Antichrist has in mind.  There will not be very many Jews left at the end of the 7 year Tribulation (the 70th week) because the Antichrist and his demonic government will be annihilating them left and right.  It will make Hitler's holocaust look like a picnic.  When Christ returns with His army (Rev. 19) He will destroy the Antichrist, and literally save Israel from certain destruction, and exalt them to the Head of All nations, with Jesus Christ HImself ruling from Jerusalem "with a rod of iron."  That is the literal reading of Scripture.

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Can a prophecy be limited to only ONE fulfillment?  Can a prophecy have more than one application?  Certainly the Scriptures bear out the fact that some - many - prophecies have both a near and far application/fulfillment in mind.  

 

Considering the full scope of Pastor Markle's OP, it should be clear that the 70th week is set aside by itself, and as such, the events of that week are yet future.  There may have been partial fulfillments, which I would say are types or pictures of things yet to come.  Yes, Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, and the temple was destroyed, and so on.  However, these historical events do not necessitate a complete fulfillment of the prophecy.  The fact that not EVERYTHING was fulfilled in their entirety - that is, the entire scope of other OT prophecies that are related to these events - should be sufficient evidence for us to realize that whatever happened in 70 AD was NOT the COMPLETE fulfillment of the OT prophecies, but only a picture of something that is yet future.  

 

When Paul said, "all Israel shall be saved," he means that when the Lord returns visibly to this earth to establish His Kingdom, that all Israel will be saved - that is delivered - from the certain imminent destruction and genocide the Antichrist has in mind.  There will not be very many Jews left at the end of the 7 year Tribulation (the 70th week) because the Antichrist and his demonic government will be annihilating them left and right.  It will make Hitler's holocaust look like a picnic.  When Christ returns with His army (Rev. 19) He will destroy the Antichrist, and literally save Israel from certain destruction, and exalt them to the Head of All nations, with Jesus Christ HImself ruling from Jerusalem "with a rod of iron."  That is the literal reading of Scripture.

 t the Jews will be restored to the church.  There is one church from Adam till Christ comes again. I believe that Christ will come again for salvation of the saints and Judgment on his enemies as in the quotes I posted from John's gospel regarding the last day.

 

See also 1 John 2:28

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From my perspective, you have not made any direct attempts at responding to Pastor Markle's post.  Here is a tremendous opportunity for you to dissect his points, and allow him to respond to you in kind.  Your failure to have an open dialogue with him directly on this issue does not speak well of you, in my book.  I cannot for the life of me understand why you would pass up such a great opportunity...

 

I guess the same thing goes for Geneva and Invicta.

 

You guys simply cannot say that our position has not been presented clearly, thoroughly and Scripturally.  

So the next time this topic comes up, I will just put a link back to this forum and let you deal with it then.

 

:popcorn:

 

I have been busy with winter stuff and church. But thanks for thinking of me while I am away. Speaks well of you.

I intend on posting sometime soon. Have more important things than revealing false views of scripture online right now.

 

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

 
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
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Quote:
"I intend on posting sometime soon. Have more important things than revealing false views of scripture online right now."

Well we have seen Covey reveal his false views, and Invicta post some confusingly disjointed reference to his - can't wait for the details of yours.

:lol:

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(Note:  This posting is somewhat lengthy; however, those who generally follow my posts will not find this to be much of a surprise.)

 

Concerning Daniel 9:24-27 –

I propose to look at the overall context, focusing first on v. 24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

 

As the context of Daniel 9 reveals, this prophetic utterance was delivered unto Daniel, who had been confessing the sins of his people Israel and praying for the Lord’s mercy upon his people Israel.  Indeed, when the angel Gabriel delivered this prophetic utterance unto Daniel, he specifically indicated that the focus of its revelation concerned Daniel’s people Israel and Daniel’s holy city, Jerusalem, as per the opening line of verse 24 – “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy [that is – Daniel’s] people and upon thy [that is – Daniel’s] holy city [Jerusalem].”  Furthermore, the angel revealed that these “seventy weeks” were determined by the Lord God upon Daniel’s people, the Israelites, and upon Daniel’s holy city, Jerusalem, for a six-fold purpose as signaled by the six infinitive phrases that complete verse 24. 

 

Daniel has prayed in response to Jeremiah's prophecy Jer. 29:10-14 concerning the exile of Israel. Notice Jer. 29:14 preceded by Jer. 29:12-13 

12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. 13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

But that promised return did not provide for a glorious restoration of the kingdom. There was never another king, & it was decades before the High Priest could officiate in the rebuilt temple. Gabriel's prophecy looked forward to Messiah coming. Those returning would be rebuilding the city & temple for Messiah 70x7 years ahead, & they were less than whole-hearted in their efforts, as the many post-exile books make clear. Gabriel warns of troublous times.

 

Jesus visited the temple as a baby, then from the age of 12, and came to claim it at the beginning of his ministry. John 2:13-17

 

John the baptist would recognise the Messiah by the Holy Spirit descending on him. John 1:33 That was a visible & extraordinary anointing, corresponding to the ceremonial washing & oil anointing of priests. Exo. 29:1-7 When Jesus was asked his authority for cleansing the temple, he appealed to his baptism. That gave him legal priestly authority. Mat. 21:23-27

 

The priests & Levites apparently expected Christ, Elijah, & that prophet to baptise. John 1:19-27 The Pharisees & Sadducees got a dreadful warning of the wrath to come when they came to John.  Mat. 3:7-10 They refused his baptism.

 

The Jews would have had in mind Moses' prophecy of the Messiah. Deu. 18:15-19 They would also been expectantly looking for the 69th  70th week to begin. There had been extraordinary stories at his birth, & they had met this 12-y-o in the temple.

 

Taking Dan. 9:24-27 as a whole, we have the coming of the Messiah, a declaration of his saving purpose, his rejection, & the consequences of that rejection.

 

Dan. 9:24 echoes Isaiah 53:1-12 . We all accept Isaiah's wonderful prophecy of the suffering Servant.   

 

This six-fold purpose of the Lord our God concerning Daniel’s people, the Israelites, and Daniel’s holy city, Jerusalem, are as follows:

 

1.  “To finish the transgression” – Herein the word “transgression” is singular, indicating that it refers unto the entire rebellion of the Israelites against the Lord their God as a single unit of sinful fault.  Indeed, the Hebrew word that is translated by the English word “transgression” indicates a breaking away (or, departure) from a relationship or covenant with another.  Thus these “seventy weeks” are determined by the Lord God in order to bring about a completion to the sinful departure of the Israelites away from Him.  As such, we could expect that after these “seventy weeks” are concluded, the Israelites will never again depart from the Lord.

 

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 

 

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

2.  “To make an end of sins” – Herein the word “sins” is plural, indicating that it refers unto the individual activities of sin that the Israelites might commit against the Lord their God.  Thus these “seventy weeks” are determined by the Lord God in order to bring about a completion to the sinful activities of the Israelites against Him.  As such, we could expect that after these “seventy weeks “ are concluded, the Israelites will never again commit sins against the Lord.

 

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

 

3.  “To make reconciliation for iniquity” – Herein the word “reconciliation” indicates the ideas of atonement and forgiveness and of reconciliation thereby.  Thus these “seventy weeks” are determined by the Lord God in order to bring about His forgiveness upon the Israelites for their sinful departure from Him and for their sinful activities against Him, and to bring about thereby the reconciliation of the Israelites unto Himself and unto His blessed fellowship.

 

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

 

4.  “To bring in everlasting righteousness” – Herein the phrase “everlasting righteousness” reveals the spiritual condition into which the Lord God intends to bring the Israelites through His work of reconciliation.  He intends to bring them into a spiritual condition of “everlasting righteousness,” not into a condition of righteousness from which they might again fall, but into a condition of righteousness from which they will never fall again.  Indeed, this is the spiritual condition into which the Lord God will bring the Israelites at the completion of these “seventy weeks.”

 

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

 

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

 

5.  “To seal up the vision and prophecy” – This phrase appears to indicate that all of the Lord’s prophetic utterances concerning the Israelites (especially concerning His judgments upon the Israelites) will be brought to their conclusion through the completion of these “seventy weeks.”

 

Basically in agreement but there's more. The fulfilment of prophecy gives the seal of approval to the prophet. Deu. 18:21-22 Jesus' discourses on the Emmaus road & with the disciples showed the fulfilment of OT prophecy in him. Luke 24:25-27 & Luke 24:44-49 Notice also John 6:27

 

6.  “To anoint the most Holy” – Herein the phrase “the most Holy” refers to the Most Holy One, the promised Messiah of Israel.  According to the New Testament Scriptures, we learn that this Most Holy One, that the Messiah, is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.  Agreed Thus these “seventy weeks” are determined by the Lord God in order to bring about the literal anointing of the Lord Jesus Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords over all the earth.  As such, we could expect that the literal return of our Lord Jesus Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords (See Revelation 19) will occur at the completion of these “seventy weeks.”

 

You're going too fast. Jesus was anointed at his baptism, & finished his saving work on Calvary.

 

We can fully understand the 70 weeks prophecy in the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ, his death & resurrection, & in the saving Gospel proclaimed in his name by the Apostles, and, sadly, by the judgement of those who rejected him.    

 

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I mostly agree with your post, Ian.  It is better than I could do.  

 

The Jews would have had in mind Moses' prophecy of the Messiah. Deu. 18:15-19 They would also been expectantly looking for the 69th week to begin. There had been extraordinary stories at his birth, & they had met this 12-y-o in the temple.

 

 However unless I misunderstand your reasoning, I think you mean the 70th. week.

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Pastor Markle explained v. 24 within the context of the entire passage.

Apparently you prefer to pluck the verse from its explanatory context.

(somehow, I am not surprised.)

 

V. 24 summarises the force of the prophecy. The succeeding verses may be "explanatory context" but they cannot be interpreted in a way that destroys the primary context. See my reply to Scott.

 

The distinction that you are failing to comprehend is that the way God deals with a corporate nation - any nation, whether it be Jew or Gentile - is far different from the way God deals with an individual - any individual, Jew or Gentile.  An individual can experience the New Birth - salvation through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.  A nation as a corporate body cannot be "born again."  If the saved individuals within a given national entity have enough influence and political power, they can help shape that nation's moral compass and direction.

 

We can agree so far.

 

America is adrift because we have lost our Spiritual, Christian, and Biblical foundations.  God's judgement will fall on our nation because our nation as a corporate entity, beginning with our political leadership - federal, state, and local - have abandoned the Biblical plan for governing, and have encouraged unbiblical behaviour in exchange for more tax money and less blackmail - whether real or political.  

 

I agree in general terms, particularly when a nation's leadership acknowledges the Law of God as being of perpetual & universal application, & allows freedom to preach Christ, & convert & live as Christians. That is changing fast, but I don't think God's dealings with corporate nations is relevant to this discussion. The present nation of Israel falls under the same condemnation as American (& Britain.) 

 

God's dealing with the corporate nation of Israel as a group is different from the Gentiles simply because God expects more from them - they are God's chosen people, they were given the written word of God, and they were given the promises and unconditional covenants of the OT, which have yet to be fulfilled in their entirety.

 

Does that still apply? It was certainly true until the leaders of the nation rejected first their Messiah, then the Apostolic Gospel. The Gospel has now gone out into all the earth. The promises & unconditional covenants of the OT can only be perfectly fulfilled in the NH&NE, not the future millennium as commonly taught. The eternal blessings will not be interrupted by a worldwide rebellion as in Rev. 20. There are many prophecies of a glorious future for Israel. None are of a temporary earthly kingdom. 

 

Consider, e.g. Isaiah 11 & 12. That is a prophecy of Christ on earth, looking on to the spread of the Gospel through all the earth, ultimate on to the time when even the animals will live in peace. And read Eze. 36 - that is a permant & wonderfully blessed state. Surely the end to which God is working through Jesus Christ & the salvation he accomplished. The NH&NE is the perfect fulfilment of prophecy. 

 

It is as clear as day for any Bible reader, UNLESS, you spiritualize everything into a NT context.  

 

That, of course is the key to understanding OT prophecy! "Spiritualising" is not corrupting or allegorising. It is understanding the OT in terms of Jesus & his saving work, & saving purposes. We have the Holy Spirit to teach us the mind of Christ. 1 Cor. 2:11-16 1 Cor. 3:1 

 

We are to "rightly DIVIDE" not "rightly GLUE" everything together.  Things that are not the same are not equal.  Israel is not the same as the Church.  Never has been - never will be.  And that is the basis of your confusion on end times prophecy.  We recognize that distinction.  You try to blend the two distinct entities together.

 

This para edited for colour & reference typo:

We have to RIGHTLY understand before we can rightly divide. Note Eze. 36:24-29 with the oft-repeated covenant promise: And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. God is calling & restoring his people, beginning at Pentecost. Paul claims that covenant promise for Gentiles also - 2 Cor. 6:16 

 

Is the true "Israel" the present nation, largely comprising, & led by leaders who reject Jesus as their Messiah? Or is Israel those who welcome the Gospel who have a unity in Christ with believing Gentiles? You claim Israel is not the church, yet at Pentecost 3000 Jews formed the church. Acts 2:47 At first the church only comprised believing Israelites. Stephen speaks of Israel being the church. Acts 7:38

 

Jesus speaks of one who recognised him as the Son of God; [thou art] the King of Israel as an Israelite indeed.   John 1:47-51 

 

True, believing Israel IS the Church & comprises both Jew & Gentile as one believing, redeemed people of God. Acts 3:22-26  

 

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

 

 V. 23 makes it clear that those Jews who reject their Prophet/Messiah are NOT God's people. Acts records that many thousands did believe. These comprised the Church. 

     

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(Note:  This posting is somewhat lengthy; however, those who generally follow my posts will not find this to be much of a surprise.)

 

Concerning Daniel 9:24-27 –

............

The opening portion of verse 25 reveals that the first sixty-nine of these “seventy weeks” will encompass the time period “from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince.”  Thus these first sixty-nine sevens will begin with “the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem” after their seventy years of captivity by the hand of the Babylonians (See Ezra & Nehemiah).  Thus also these first sixty-nine sevens will conclude with the coming of “the Messiah the Prince.”  Now, the distance of time between these events are known by historical record to be greater than a period of sixty-nine literal weeks.  Rather, we understand by the historical record that the distance of time between these events encompassed a multitude of years (indeed, 483 years).  Therefore, we are brought to understand that the “seventy sevens” of this context are a reference unto seventy groupings of seven years eachAgreed

 

Now, the report of verse 25 is not presented with a simple designation of threescore (sixty) and nine “weeks” (sevens), but with the dividing of two parts, the first being “seven weeks” (seven sevens) and the second being “threescore and two weeks” (sixty-two sevens).  This seems to indicate that something of significance will also occur at the completion of the first “seven weeks” (or, forty-nine years) of these sixty-nine weeks (sevens).  Even so, the closing line of verse 25 appears to reveal what this “thing” of significance is – “The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”  Agreed

 

Inserted:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
So we have 69 weeks unto Messiah the Prince which takes us to the baptism & Holy Spirit anointing of the Lord Jesus Christ at the beginning of his ministry that will accomplish his saving work detailed in V. 24, which will be completed in the 70 weeks. The 70th week will be the 3 1/2 years of his earthly ministry & a further 3 1/2 years.
 
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

Since verse 25 has recorded the beginning and the ending for the first sixty-nine “weeks” of the “seventy weeks,” we would now logically expect verse 26 to report the events of the seventieth and final “week” of these “seventy weeks.”  Indeed, human logic would move us to expect that the seventieth and final “week” of these “seventy weeks” would follow immediately after the first sixty-nine “weeks” are completed (since the number seventy does follow immediately after the number sixty-nine).  However, this seventieth and final “week” of these “seventy weeks” is not actually and specifically mentioned until verse 27.  Rather, verse 26 gives a report concerning events that occur “after” the “threescore and two weeks” (after the first sixty-nine “weeks”) without making any specific reference to the seventieth and final week. 

Agreed, but that does NOT mean subsequent events will be outside the 70th week, only they are AFTER 69 weeks. i.e. During & after the 70th week, as indicated by the details of the prophecy.

 

Messiah was cut off at Calvary in order to accomplish his saving work of v. 24. As a consequence of that, the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary & war will ensue. 

 

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

Who is "he" who shall confirm the covenant with many for one week? Notice THE covenant.    

 

What then are these events that occur after the first sixty-nine “weeks” (483 years), without any specific indication that they fall in the seventieth and final “week” (7 years)?  Verse 26 appears to give report concerning three things, saying, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”  Herein the preposition “after” does not indicate that these things occur at the end of the first sixty-nine “weeks” (483 years), but indicates that these things occur after the first sixty-nine “weeks” (483 years) are already concluded.  Furthermore, it is worthy of notice that verse 25 did not specifically state that the first sixty-nine “weeks” would conclude with the cutting off of the Messiah the Prince.  Rather, verse 25 simply indicated that the first sixty-nine “weeks” would extend “unto the Messiah the Prince” (and thereby conclude), without specifying the activity of the Messiah the Prince to which it was referring.  (Personally, I believe that verse 25 is referring to the beginning of our Lord Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry as initiated by His baptism.) Agreed.

 

So then, what are the three things which verse 26 indicates occur after the conclusion of the first sixty-nine “weeks” (483 years)? 

 

1.  The Messiah will be cut off in death, not for His own sake, but for the sake of others.  According to the New Testament Scriptures, this would be a prophetically reference unto the crucifixion of our Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross. 

Agreed. Half way through the 70th week. 

 

2.  “The people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city [that is – Daniel’s holy city, Jersusalem, as per the contextual statement with which verse 24 began] and the sanctuary [that is – the temple in Jerusalem].”  Now, in this statement there are two elements of information that are worthy of notice in relation to the context.  The first of these elements of information is that there is “a prince that shall come” unto the Israelites and unto the city of Jerusalem who is not referenced as their Messiah.  The second of these elements of information is that this “prince that shall come” is not the one himself who comes against Jerusalem in the event of verse 26 to destroy the city and the sanctuary (temple) therein.  Rather, it is the people of which he will be a part that come against Jerusalem in the event of verse 26 to destroy the city and the sanctuary (temple) therein.

Agreed, though I'm not sure how much significance we should read into "the people." Could refer to the Emperor sending his army. 

 

3.  “The end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”  This statement appears to indicate that the destroying of the city Jerusalem and of the temple in Jerusalem will end with utter desolation upon the Israelites, and that the Israelites and the city of Jerusalem will continue to suffer ongoing desolations thereafter.

Sounds like AD 70, but note, the desolations are only determined  unto the end of the warnot ongoing.

 

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

Finally, with verse 27 we come to the concluding verse of this prophetic utterance and to the specific reference unto the seventieth and final “week” (7 years) of these “seventy weeks.”  The opening line of this verse indicates that some “he” will “confirm” some “covenant with many” (apparently among the Israelites, since that is the focus of this prophetic utterance as per the opening statement of verse 24).  In fact, this “he” will “confirm” this “covenant” with these Israelites for a period of “one week” (that is – a period of one seven, or of seven years).

That is serious misreading/misquoting the Holy Word. Note: "he shall confirm the covenant"  CONFIRM THE COVENANT. We should read this as the way Messiah conducts his saving work. God makes covenants; blesses those who keep them, & curses those who break them. This is NOT "some covenant" but THE COVENANT

Then this verse indicates that in the middle of this seven year period (after 3.5 years), this “he” will “cause the sacrifice and OBlation” of the Israelites “to cease” (apparently ending his seven year “covenant” with the Israelites).  Finally, this verse indicates that this “he” will bring a form of desolation upon the Israelites and the city of Jerusalem, and that this “he” will do so for the purpose of “the overspreading of abominations” upon the Israelites and the city of Jerusalem.  Indeed, this verse indicates that this desolation will continue upon the Israelites and the city of Jerusalem “until the consummation” (until the completion) of the seventieth “week,” and thereby of the “seventy weeks.”

We are talking about the 70th week, & you agree week 69 brought us to Jesus baptism & anointing. Thus Calvary, in the midst of the week causes the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease. The temple veil was rent by God, top to bottom, to show the way was now open without further atoning sacrifice. 

 

The fact that sacrifices continued be offered until the destruction is a indication of God's grace & patience, not a failure of Gabriel's prophecy. 

 

So then, who is this “he” of verse 27?  Grammatically, the closest antecedent to this pronoun in the context is “the prince that shall come” who was mentioned in verse 26.  Furthermore, in the context there is no other reference to “the prince that shall come” of verse 26 in order to explain who he is and why he matters and was mentioned at all in verse 26.  As such, I would contend according to these principles of grammar and context that the “he” of verse 27 is “the prince that shall come” of verse 26.  Now, it is again worthy of note that this “prince” is not referenced in verse 26 as being the Messiah, but that he is in some way related to the people who would destroy the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary (temple) therein in the destroying event that is prophesied in verse 26.

Your reasoning is destroyed by your alteration of Scripture relating to  Note: "he shall confirm the covenant"  CONFIRM THE COVENANT. That refers to Jesus, who confirmed the covenant with those who believed & followed him, and made the New Testament (Covenant) in his blood. Your concordance will tell you there are no "testaments" in the OT, only "covenants." Testament & Covenant are synonymous. Note Luke 1:67-79  To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

 

The 70th week takes to 3 1/2 years after Calvary. The Gospel was proclaimed & many thousands believed & were baptised, as recorded in Acts. So many that after the 5,000 no actual further count is given. Those converted at Pentecost went back to their homes all round the Empire & continued to spread the word.

 

The absolute rejection of Messiah in the martyrdom of Stephen effective ended any covenant between God & the unbelieving Jews. They were declared "uncircumcised." Acts 7:51-53  

 

In conclusion, let us consider the grammatical and contextual gap that is presented in this passage between the conclusion of the sixty-nine “weeks” and the beginning of the seventieth “week.”  Verse 25 clearly speaks concerning the beginning and conclusion of the first sixty-nine “weeks,” and verse 27 clearly speaks concerning the beginning of the seventieth “week.”  However, the events of verse 26 are presented between these other two records.  Indeed, as we have already noted, verse 26 does specifically indicate that the events which it records occur after the sixty-nine “weeks.”  Yet verse 26 makes no specific reference whatsoever to the seventieth “week.”  Furthermore, verse 27 specifically makes reference to the beginning of the seventieth week, and then reports concerning events that will proceed from that point.  Yet verse 27 does not specifically indicate that the events which are recorded in verse 26 are included in that seventieth “week.”  As such, we may understand from the flow of the grammar and the context that there is some form of gap in time between the first sixty-nine “weeks” (483 years) as recorded in verse 25 and the seventieth and final “week” (7 years) as recorded in verse 27, and that the events of verse 26 will fall within that gap in time.

 

There is no "grammatical and contextual gap" but there is a prophecy of events occurring after the 69th week. The 70th week is clearly contiguous with the 69 weeks, as we would expect from the prophecy as a whole, & as is readily understood if we read the Scripture as written. 

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There is no "grammatical and contextual gap" but there is a prophecy of events occurring after the 69th week. The 70th week is clearly contiguous with the 69 weeks, as we would expect from the prophecy as a whole, & as is readily understood if we read the Scripture as written.

 

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  2 Thes 2:3-5, Paul around 50 A.D.
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