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ThePilgrim

More American Justice

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The move is banned by the NYPD, which still may fire the officer, but the move isn't illegal to use.

 

Homicide doesn't equal murder. There are clear legal distinctions between the two. A homicide is death involving another person, which could be anything from homicide in self-defense to homicide by murder in the first degree.

 

There are many factors at play in this incident. One which the media and Leftists always ignore is that the best, and clearly legal course of action when a cop says to put hands out to be cuffed, or behind back, or to kneel or whatever, is to OBey the cop, be cooperative, and if you have a legal complaint bring that up later.

 

Trying to argue with a cop or resist arrest is not a good idea and opens the door to further legal charges against you, to injury and sometimes even death.

 

Another major prOBlem is the plethora of petty, stupid, unnecessary, unhelpful, laws out there which make a criminal out of just about everyone. This places cops, which in major cities especially are already overburdened with "real crime", in positions where they have to take on the stress of nonsense of arresting people for nothing of importance.

 

If our laws were streamlined, if real crime was the focus, if peace and harmony were actual goals in neighborhoods, the police could truly serve and protect much better.

 

As it is now, politicians make everything a crime, they expect the police to arrest everyone and either bring in dollars through fines or fill the jails and prisons, or risk a languishing career, or worse. Then, when something goes wrong due to the things the politicians set in motion, they abandon the police, pander to special interest groups in public, but things remain the same when it's all blown over.

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I have long believed that in general one should respect the process of the law even when the result isn't what you believe should have occurred; after all none of us are omniscient.  But the recent perversions when it comes to cops killing civilians has shaken my belief in that precept to the core.
 
In Ferguson the issue became race on both sides; those supporting the cop essentially retreated to the argument that he was a thug (not being willing to simply call him a ****** any more, you see -- now we have a kinder, gentler form of racism -- right?) while those demanding a trial simply played the whitey shot black man card.
 
Very few have examined the actual issue -- the fact that the physical evidence did not support the police officer's narrative -- not originally, not as the case developed and not in the Grand Jury testimony.
 
Further, there is plenty of hard, documentary evidence of intentionally false instructions being given to the Grand Jury -- specifically, the standard for the use of deadly force by officers was presented to them as the pre-Supreme Court decision in 1985 (Tennessee .v. Garner) on shooting fleeing felons.  The Grand Jury was instructed that this was permissible when in fact this has not been for 30 years.  That's not an accident, it is intentional and willful misconduct on the part of the authorities.  Were you or I to give an intentionally false presentation to a Grand Jury we'd find ourselves in prison and with good cause.  The Prosecutor will not face that same punishment, yet it was a direct and proximate cause of the no-bill decision.
 
But now we have the NYC case in which there was a refusal to indict as well -- and this is even more outrageous as the conduct in question, a police choke-hold that was found by the medical examiner to be the cause of death as he ruled it a homicide is a banned practice in most police departments -- including in NYC.
 
So here we have a cop who engaged in a practice specifically prohibited to him on a suspect who had committed no violent offense (he was accused of illegally reselling cigarettes) and that practice was the direct and proximate cause of the suspect's death.
 
Yet he too was not indicted.
 
Folks, you are the check and balance on this sort of stuff as you sit in the Grand Jury rooms.  You decide.
 
And what you, I, and everyone else is compelled to decide is that the police are not to be given deference.  At all.  Ever.  Nor are the prosecutors.  They may not be presumed to be telling the truth in either Grand Jury rooms or during trials as we now have one case in which we know the prosecutor factually lied to the Grand Jury and a second in which a banned practice did not result in an immediate felony arrest for assault, irrespective of Grand Jury proceedings.
 
The three monkeys, the first with his hands over his eyes, the second with his hands over his ears, and the third with his hands over his mouth are not Christians nor do they exemplify Christian behavior.

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What I have heard recently was that it wasn't a chokehold, but a compliance move, and it wasn't what killed him, per se, but a combination of the hold, his weight, his health, (asthma, heart condition, etc) and being laid on his stomach, and everything came together to tragedy. This is why he was found not at fault-had he been a relatively healthy, he wouldn't have died.

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What I have heard recently was that it wasn't a chokehold, but a compliance move, and it wasn't what killed him, per se, but a combination of the hold, his weight, his health, (asthma, heart condition, etc) and being laid on his stomach, and everything came together to tragedy. This is why he was found not at fault-had he been a relatively healthy, he wouldn't have died.

Man is a being who sees what he wants to see, hears what he wants to hear, so he can then justify evil because he has not seen or heard it.  Well I think the three monkeys said it better than I.

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What I have heard recently was that it wasn't a chokehold, but a compliance move, and it wasn't what killed him, per se, but a combination of the hold, his weight, his health, (asthma, heart condition, etc) and being laid on his stomach, and everything came together to tragedy. This is why he was found not at fault-had he been a relatively healthy, he wouldn't have died.

 

No escuse.  The man is heard to say, I can't breath.  Murder again gone unpunished.

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Watch police shows, true police shows not dramas, and it's common for those the police are arresting to complain about everything, including saying they can't breath.

 

The reports coming out from this case indicate his heart went out and that's what caused the prOBlems, not the compliance hold. This man had numerous health issues. As has been reported, had the police used a taser on the man with his heart as it was it's likely he would have died too, and then there would have been an uproar over taser use.

 

The simple fact is, whether a person is in the wrong, right, or simply there, if a police officer says you are under arrest and tells you to let him put the cuffs on you, you should comply. If you don't comply you are now in violation of the law (whether you were before or not) and as the laws stand, any move after that which isn't complying with a police officers orders is considered resisting arrest. At this point you have placed yourself in the position of disOBeying the orders of a police officer and resisting arrest. The law now states force may be used to bring about compliance and make the arrest.

 

The best way to avoid prOBlems with the police is not to break the law; don't be around those who are lawbreakers; don't try to argue with a cop; if a cop says to do something simply OBey.

 

If there is a legal complaint to be made, if your rights are violated, if you've done nothing wrong, the time to address those matters is later.

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John, you continually make excuses for these people.

Who am I making excuses for?

 

I pointed out that if one wants to avoid prOBlems with the police, stay legal, don't argue with them, don't resist them.

 

That in no way says they always do right, I've known enough who don't, I've encountered some in my own life.

 

We have a legal system. It's human made and human run so in this fallen world it's flawed but what's the alternative? If we decide we are only going to accept the rulings we agree with, then that means everyone else can too, which taken to its logical conclusion leads to anarchy.

 

We have to face the fact we live in a fallen world. Most all of the police, criminals, politicians, jurors and average citizens are lost sinners serving their father the devil. Do we really expect these people to get everything right? Do we really expect there can be truly fair justice for all? Do we really think it's possible that each of these will always make the right decisions and do the right things?

 

Personally, I look at each case individually. I don't take a pro or con view of the police, suspects, jurors, judges, etc. With the facts at hand I make my determination on individual cases; sometimes coming to a conclusion and sometimes deciding I still don't know enough to make a determination as to what to think.

 

Even then, it still comes back to this being a fallen world filled with sinners acting like sinners living in a fallen world. As Solomon said, nothing new under the sun.

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The police officers ought to have to give you a warning "Do as I say or I will kill you."  American justice system today.  And it seems like the vast majority of the population agree with it.  It seems like the GOOD people of the land are just as good as the BAD people.

 

And as far as tasers are concerned.  The company that makes and sells tasers describe them as being meant for use only (just like firearm) when life is endangered.  I do not think anyones life was endangered in this incident except the extremely dangerous victim of police violence.  Police love to use weapons of any kind, it seems.  It proves their manhood, I guess.  I use to think it was rediculous to not arm bOBbies in London . . . . now I underestand why they didn't.  Power corrupts men in uniform just as it corrupt any one else.

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The police officers ought to have to give you a warning "Do as I say or I will kill you."  American justice system today.  And it seems like the vast majority of the population agree with it.  It seems like the GOOD people of the land are just as good as the BAD people.

 

And as far as tasers are concerned.  The company that makes and sells tasers describe them as being meant for use only (just like firearm) when life is endangered.  I do not think anyones life was endangered in this incident except the extremely dangerous victim of police violence.  Police love to use weapons of any kind, it seems.  It proves their manhood, I guess.  I use to think it was rediculous to not arm bOBbies in London . . . . now I underestand why they didn't.  Power corrupts men in uniform just as it corrupt any one else.

You kind of hit the nail there in that it's the laws that are a prOBlem and there needs to be change.

 

New York politicians slapped huge taxes on cigarettes sold in packs. Then they made it illegal to sell individual cigarettes. Then they told police to go after "illegal cigarette sellers" and found that brought in a lot of money through fines. New York even put together a cigarette task force police unit!

 

This is just one of the hundreds of ridiculous, unnecessary, trouble causing, criminal making laws in this country which politicians put in place and then demand the police enforce...while then complaining the police aren't spending enough time dealing with real crime!

 

Add to the fact police have to deal with this pressure the fact the federal government has been taking more and more control over local police and militarizing them. Police are now trained more in military tactics and techniques than they are in traditional police training. Part of this training involves training the police to feel there is a constant fear for their lives, that all who aren't police are possible (even prOBable) criminals, that their patrol area is a war zone and everyone around is a threat. From this stems the training to be quick to use aggressive, forceful language to be quickly followed by aggressive and forceful actions.

 

While some do become cops for wrong reasons (and under more traditional police standards many would have been unaccepted for policemen) even the good men who join the police are indoctrinated into bad mindset by the training put in place by the politicians.

 

In America the police have to be armed because weapons saturate America. Most criminals have weapons as do many citizens. The police couldn't operate in America without weapons.

 

The original introduction of tasers was said to be for police to use only in cases where they would otherwise have to fire their gun. That might have been fine, but the police very quickly were trained to use the tasers for virtually any reason. This has led to death and health issues for several people over the years. Again, we come back to training.

 

If we really want to see major changes in all this it will require much concerted effort to put pressure on politicians to get the laws streamlined, get the federal government out of State and local police departments, return to more traditional police training and hiring.

 

At the same time, parts of the country could use some real, actual community building help; not "community activism", but actual real and helpful community building.

 

Too much money and political power is at stake here so this likely won't happen. Our lost, sinful politicians are filled with greed for money and power and they don't care if such comes through the destroying of families, communities, cities, the legal system, or eventually the country itself.

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When the police blame their bad behavior on their bosses and say that is what I was trained do, or I was only following orders or department policy, it begins to sound a lot like the excuses heard at Nuremburg.

Sorry, those excuses were not listened to then and should not be listened to now.  Every man or woman in this world unless mentally deficient (like no working brain) is responsible for their actions.  

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When the police blame their bad behavior on their bosses and say that is what I was trained do, or I was only following orders or department policy, it begins to sound a lot like the excuses heard at Nuremburg.

Sorry, those excuses were not listened to then and should not be listened to now.  Every man or woman in this world unless mentally deficient (like no working brain) is responsible for their actions.  

It's in our nature to be followers and no matter what jOB one has or group they belong to, the majority (sometimes all) follow the leaders (bosses, teachers, coaches, etc.) in whatever they are told. This is especially so in cases of heightened emotion, crisis and such; which includes confrontations and war.

 

Notice when our soldiers go into other nations those nations must agree (unless we are invading them) that our soldiers can't be brought up on charges or prosecuted for anything by those of the nation they are in. There have been many cases, including during WWII, when American soldiers were given passes on their crimes and excesses because they were "just following orders" or because "everyone was doing it".

 

There is a reason for intense, and continued, training for those in the military and police (as well as other things), and much of that has to do with indoctrination. They indoctrinate those in their charge to think and act differently, to subordinate their personal will and take on the persona of the group and to follow orders and protect the "brotherhood".

 

Every so often there are reports, that the media quickly ignore, of police who try to do the right thing by exposing something bad or refusing to go along with something they disagree with. These police officers are typically shunned, even abused by their fellows, hammered by those above them, and eventually forced out (or they resign) of their jOB. That sends a very strong message to others, as well as it being used by the leadership and the trainers to further group think among those remaining.

 

In this fallen world we either serve the Lord or we are serving the devil. Most are serving the devil and it shows.

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Well getting forced out or resigning is the thing to do.  Not kill or harm people for no good reason.  I have lost a jOB or two because of my refusal to do certain things as an accountant.  I sometimes wonder if one can be a tax accountant and be righteous.  :casse-mur-briques: For me it seems like the brick walls never really fall.

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Really hate this thing continually not allowing my posts to go through and then all my effort simply disappears. It can't be blamed on Internet Explorer anymore since I've been using Firefox on OB.

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Most people aren't going to do what's right simply because it's right. Most have a "what's right in my own eyes" mindset. Once they have been indoctrinated and trained a certain way, that becomes the view they see from. This is why there are so many cases of those not only in the military and police "just following orders", but also of friends who go along with their friends raping, beating or killing someone.

 

Unless the politicians and police are born again in Christ, we can't really expect much change to take place for the better. They will continue to be lost sinners acting the same, serving their father the devil.

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The police officers ought to have to give you a warning "Do as I say or I will kill you."  American justice system today.  And it seems like the vast majority of the population agree with it.  It seems like the GOOD people of the land are just as good as the BAD people.

 

And as far as tasers are concerned.  The company that makes and sells tasers describe them as being meant for use only (just like firearm) when life is endangered.  I do not think anyones life was endangered in this incident except the extremely dangerous victim of police violence.  Police love to use weapons of any kind, it seems.  It proves their manhood, I guess.  I use to think it was rediculous to not arm bOBbies in London . . . . now I underestand why they didn't.  Power corrupts men in uniform just as it corrupt any one else.

 

Police in England are not usually armed. We do have diplomatic protection squad who are armed, and we also have trained armed officers who form "Armed response units"  Mostly police will shout "Armed Police" which will often cause the suspected offender to put up his hands, and them if suspicious moves are made they will shoot.  There are exceptions to this of course e.g. when a someone is suspected of being a suicide bomber they are likely to be shot without warning. Even this can have tragic consequences such as in the case of a Brazilian waiter who was shot on a Tube Train in London soon after they bombing s on London trains.Police believed he was connected to the bombers.  AT the time I belonged to a genealogical site and people were posting the the police had done a good jOB but I warned that they should wait and see if he was guilty or not.   I got a lot of stick from the other members and was accused of being unpatriotic and that the police would not shoot an innocent man.  Within a few days it was proved that they had in fact shot an innocent man.  

 

There was a case recently where a Tazer was used on a man who had not warranted it and had not been warned and died almost immediately.  It later emerged that the Tazer was not of a type approved for use by the police. 

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The evidence and witnesses in Ferguson pretty clearly laid out self defense.  I fully supported Officer Wilson.  He was attacked.  Period.

 

The case in NYC I have not researched....it does not seem right, on first view...but somehow a Grand Jury felt it was okay.  Terrible timing, that's for sure.

 

What gets me is that shortly after the Ferguson shooting, a black cop shot a white man in Utah.  The white man did not attack the cop or anything..he just refused to put his hands up, and then when he suddenly shot them up, the cop thought he had a gun, and shot him dead.  (I saw the video, the cop was wearing a camera).    But the man had been unarmed.  But no media wants to touch that one with a ten foot pole.

 

I'm tired of the inequality.  I'm not racist.  I have not done anything to anyone of another skin color.  So I don't expect to be on the receiving end of a lot of racism lately.   If the media wants to make a big deal about cop shootings, then they need to report ALLLL of them.  Not just the white on black ones.

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