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3 hours ago, DaveW said:

The thing that really makes with laugh with your attack on Eric is that vs 7 follows on from vs 6 where is says:

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
(Mat 24:6-7)

 

Notice that at the end of vs 6 it quite plainly says "but the end is not yet."

This is the biggest argument against Eric's thought here - these things will happen, and it is implied (not stated) that over time that they will increase, "BUT THE END IS NOT YET."

In one regard it doesn't matter if there is a famine - the end is not yet.

But then we read:

All these are the beginning of sorrows.
(Mat 24:8)
 

Note that all these are the BEGINNING of sorrows, not the end of sorrows. These things will happen from the time they were stated until the end.

And by the way, the term "sorrows" here is not talking about the great tribulation period, so don't even try that.

The end of the original discussion, the destruction of the temple.  The sorrows were those that occurred before the temple was destroyed which was what the discussion was about.  And yes there were wars and rumours  of was before that time, many areas of the Empire were revolting including the Germans, so much so that Nero was considering suicide.  And yes there were earthquakes, and yes there were false Christs, Paul himself was suspected of being  one, The Egyptian who led many into the wilderness, and yes there were false prophets that continually prophesied that the Jews would defeat the Romans.   And yes it did come upon that generation, all of it.  

Luke 21:20 ¶  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

When the Christians saw the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, they knew that that was the abomination of desolation and the the desolation was nigh.

I agree that there was a short break after Matt 23 until they arrived at the mount of olives, but the conversation was a continuation and the subject was the same. 

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On 12/5/2016 at 9:17 AM, Invicta said:

The end of the original discussion, the destruction of the temple.  The sorrows were those that occurred before the temple was destroyed which was what the discussion was about.  And yes there were wars and rumours  of was before that time, many areas of the Empire were revolting including the Germans, so much so that Nero was considering suicide.  And yes there were earthquakes, and yes there were false Christs, Paul himself was suspected of being  one, The Egyptian who led many into the wilderness, and yes there were false prophets that continually prophesied that the Jews would defeat the Romans.   And yes it did come upon that generation, all of it.  

Luke 21:20 ¶  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

When the Christians saw the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, they knew that that was the abomination of desolation and the the desolation was nigh.

I agree that there was a short break after Matt 23 until they arrived at the mount of olives, but the conversation was a continuation and the subject was the same. 

Invicta, don't you understand that the destruction of Jerusalem was the war but the end was not yet spoken of in Matthew 24:6.

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7 hours ago, Eric Stahl said:

What do you think it was the end of?

Apart from the Temple it was The end of the Jewish economy and the judgements pronounced in Deut 28, Matthdews 23.  Isaiah 61.2, confirmed in Luke 21:22.  

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1 hour ago, Invicta said:

Apart from the Temple it was The end of the Jewish economy and the judgements pronounced in Deut 28, Matthdews 23.  Isaiah 61.2, confirmed in Luke 21:22.  

Rubbish.

I direct response to the question by the Disciples:

Mat 24:3
(3)  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

Jesus Answered them:
Mat 24:4-6
(4)  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
(5)  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
(6)  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
 

The direct context of the passage says that the End spoken of in vs 6 is the END OF THE WORLD as asked by the Disciples.

 

Your twisting of plain Scripture to fit it into your framework of "Now times" prophecy is astounding.

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10 hours ago, DaveW said:

Rubbish.

I direct response to the question by the Disciples:

Mat 24:3
(3)  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

Jesus Answered them:
Mat 24:4-6
(4)  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
(5)  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
(6)  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
 

The direct context of the passage says that the End spoken of in vs 6 is the END OF THE WORLD as asked by the Disciples.

 

Your twisting of plain Scripture to fit it into your framework of "Now times" prophecy is astounding.

I will not respond in similar offensive language,

I have already addressed that point.  That was the second question which was answered separately, of which we are told there  would be no sign.  You are in error in connecting the two points.  Take full notice of the word "But"  which  signifies a change of subject.

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11 hours ago, Invicta said:

I will not respond in similar offensive language,

I have already addressed that point.  That was the second question which was answered separately, of which we are told there  would be no sign.  You are in error in connecting the two points.  Take full notice of the word "But"  which  signifies a change of subject.

How can it be in error? I showed two directly continuous passages using almost identical wording on both question and answer, and you say, without explanation that they are not related..........

Of course you find that answer offensive - it shows plainly how you ignore context and plain scripture and force your own interpretation onto it.

 

Edited by DaveW
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23 hours ago, Invicta said:

Apart from the Temple it was The end of the Jewish economy and the judgements pronounced in Deut 28, Matthdews 23.  Isaiah 61.2, confirmed in Luke 21:22.  

Another reason why this is rubbish is that neither Matthew 24 (the actual passage in question), not Matthew 23 (which you for some reason point to, even though the statements are in ch 24), nor Luke 22, speak of the Temple, the city, or Jerusalem in any way that could be interpreted as you have done.

I thought this should be pointed out to show from another direction that your false interpretation of "the end" is ..... well..... just false.

I repeat the passage in question:

Mat 24:3-6
(3)  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
(4)  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
(5)  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
(6)  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
 

To dispute this connection you MUST show that these two statements are not connected, because they certainly APPEAR to be connected IN THE CONTEXT.

The Disciples ask a question, and the Lord answers that question - seems to be pretty straightforward to me.

And there is NO MENTION of Jerusalem nor of the Jewish economy........... 

And exactly what part of Dueuteronomy 28 are you referring to? there is no mention of the city (aside from in a general sense in two passages, one of blessing and one of cursing), of Jerusalem or of the Temple in that chapter - How on earth are you linking these together? - or are you just picking a really long chapter in the hope that people will just accept what you say without checking it? It does talk of judgements, but you will struggle to biblically link those judgements with "the end", or even specifically with the AD 70 destruction of the Temple...

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16 hours ago, DaveW said:

How can it be in error? I showed two directly continuous passages using almost identical wording on both question and answer, and you say, without explanation that they are not related..........

Of course you find that answer offensive - it shows plainly how you ignore context and plain scripture and force your own interpretation onto it.

 

My reading is a literal understanding of the passage.  You just ignore history.  "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed by armies"  They did see that, "then know that its desolation is nigh."   They understood that and fled the city as the Lord commanded. They also knew that the abomination that would cause the desolation was the (Roman) armies surrounding Jerusalem.

B UT   of that day and hour knoweth no man.  The previous signs were for the destruction of Jerusalem, this was notified in advance to enable believers to escape,  The answer to this second question is of the Lord's coming.  It would be suddenly and there would  be no sign.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

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49 minutes ago, Invicta said:

My reading is a literal understanding of the passage.  You just ignore history.  "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed by armies"  They did see that, "then know that its desolation is nigh."   They understood that and fled the city as the Lord commanded. They also knew that the abomination that would cause the desolation was the (Roman) armies surrounding Jerusalem.

B UT   of that day and hour knoweth no man.  The previous signs were for the destruction of Jerusalem, this was notified in advance to enable believers to escape,  The answer to this second question is of the Lord's coming.  It would be suddenly and there would  be no sign.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

And yet the Bible clearly says:

3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

 5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

And DOESN'T make any link with Jerusalem the way you make up.

By the way, Jerusalem was not compassed by "Armies" but AN army, and the years it was compassed about about is hardly suddenly, and the Christians did not leave "when they saw the armies" but the people IN GENERAL fled when the city was finally destroyed, and they didn't  flee to the moutains but to other cities........

And what you say is UNBIBLICAL RUBBISH, and in no way a literal reading of Scripture.

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2 hours ago, DaveW said:

And yet the Bible clearly says:

3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

 5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

And DOESN'T make any link with Jerusalem the way you make up.

By the way, Jerusalem was not compassed by "Armies" but AN army, and the years it was compassed about about is hardly suddenly, and the Christians did not leave "when they saw the armies" but the people IN GENERAL fled when the city was finally destroyed, and they didn't  flee to the moutains but to other cities........

And what you say is UNBIBLICAL RUBBISH, and in no way a literal reading of Scripture.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                         3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? The tings Jesus was speaking about and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?     An unrelated question   to the comments by Jesus, He didn't say anything about his coming or the end of the world as you full well know.

In Matthew  23 and in 24 etc Jesus says this would all come upon that generation, Why?  That generation was the one that they crucified the Lord an Christ.  Not unbiblical rubbish at all.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

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2 hours ago, Invicta said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                         3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? The tings Jesus was speaking about and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?     An unrelated question   to the comments by Jesus, He didn't say anything about his coming or the end of the world as you full well know.

In Matthew  23 and in 24 etc Jesus says this would all come upon that generation, Why?  That generation was the one that they crucified the Lord an Christ.  

So He totally ignored their question and aswered something else even though he specifically says in answer to their Question:

 Matt 24

3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

 5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

"the end" is clearly mentioned twice in this passage, once in a question and once in an answer, but acvording to you they are not at all related, but "the end" is actually related to Jerusalem and the economy of the Jews", neither of which are even mentioned in the chapter.

This is fun - I quote the Bible and show what it plainly says by bolding the words actually written by God , and you say I am wrong and that verses that are consecutive in the text are actually not even related to each other.

Let's think about that for a moment........

I will go with the Bible text thanks very much and leave your obvious twisting and reworking of Scripture to........ well, to those who like to  make things up to suit themselves.

 

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On Friday, December 09, 2016 at 9:05 AM, Invicta said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                         3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? The tings Jesus was speaking about and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?     An unrelated question   to the comments by Jesus, He didn't say anything about his coming or the end of the world as you full well know.

In Matthew  23 and in 24 etc Jesus says this would all come upon that generation, Why?  That generation was the one that they crucified the Lord an Christ.  Not unbiblical rubbish at all.                                                                                                                                          

Two things:

  • "As you full well know" implies that I am deliberately lying about this, which is an entirely offensive personal attack.
  • As to His coming and the end of the world - The Lord specifically warns them about those who say they are his prophets and who come in His name - and since the subject is His coming (as per the question that He is answering) it absolutely is talking about His coming, as is also His words about "the end" - the context put his "the end" as relating to the question they asked about "the end of the world".

For to suggest they are unrelated is laughable - even a child with a basic grasp of English can see the question and the following answer.

To suggest that the Answer of Jesus is unrelated to the question is only viable if you wish to ignore what the Bible says for some reason.

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21 hours ago, DaveW said:

Two things:

  • "As you full well know" implies that I am deliberately lying about this, which is an entirely offensive personal attack.
  • As to His coming and the end of the world - The Lord specifically warns them about those who say they are his prophets and who come in His name - and since the subject is His coming (as per the question that He is answering) it absolutely is talking about His coming, as is also His words about "the end" - the context put his "the end" as relating to the question they asked about "the end of the world".

For to suggest they are unrelated is laughable - even a child with a basic grasp of English can see the question and the following answer.

To suggest that the Answer of Jesus is unrelated to the question is only viable if you wish to ignore what the Bible says for some reason.

There were two quuestions.  

1st Regarding the destruction of the temple. When would that be and what is the sign.  That was fulfilled. The sign was the armies surrounding Jerusale.  Go to Jerusalem and look to see if the words of Jesus have not been fulfilled.

2nd "What sall be the sign of Thy coming and the end of thge world."  This was answered separately.  "But of that day and hour knoweth no man. ...."  Jesus then continues to show that his coming would be sudden, like in the days of Noah ond of Lot.  42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour  your Lord doth come.

It is told of the Antartic explorer, Shackleton,  that after his ship was destroyed in the Ice, he and his crew escaped to Elephanit Island.  Then Shackleton took the ships boat and a small crew and set off to row about 1000 miles to the island of South Georgia where he knew there was a whaling station, telling his crew that he would be back.  In the TV film of the incident, one of the crew said as he rowed into the distance "That is the last we will see of him," Shackleton eventually arrived at South Georgia  but on the wrong side of the Island and they had to walk over the frozon mountains to the whaling station where he borrowed a ship and set off back to rescue his men. When he arrived there was ice blocking his way then a channel suddenly appeaed in the ice and he managed to get to the island.  When he arrived he was surprised to see his men all packed up and ready tho go.  He asked one how they knew he was cpoming that day.  "We didn't" said the man; "[The man Shackleton had left in charge] said every day, "Pack up your sleeping bags, boys, the boss may come today" so whenver you came we would be ready,"  

That is how we should behave.  We don't know when he Lord will come, but when ever it happens, we should  be ready. 

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