Jump to content
Online Baptist Community

Way Of Life - Hating The Rapture

Rate this topic


RSS Robot
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Actually, there are many hints toward a Pre-Trib Rapture.

One such hint is

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

God will not pour out His wrath on His own, but on the wicked. And that wrath will be throughout the Earth.

No need looking for me when that period comes, because I won't be here... you won't find me.

We are not appointed to wrath.
So God will remove us from the Earth prior to pouring out His Wrath.

This is where Dispensational Theory departs from Scripture.

Mat 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Unlike Dispensational "teachers", God can count to two.

The first resurrection preceeds the pouring out of Wrath, and occurs after the Tribulation Saints are Martyred.

Only The Spirit of God can reveal this to you, through His Word.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

Actually, there are many hints toward a Pre-Trib Rapture.

One such hint is

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

God will not pour out His wrath on His own, but on the wicked.  And that wrath will be throughout the Earth.

No need looking for me when that period comes, because I won't be here... you won't find me.

 

This assumes the tribulation is synonomous with the wrath, yet Revelation gives us seven seals, (which I believe, in reading it, seems to be an overview of the entire period, though I admit I could be wrong), then seven trumpets, which seem to be the various events of the tribulation as they occur, then the seven vial of the wrath of God, which would indeed be the outpouring of God's wrath, begun in Rev 14 with the angel from the temple in Heaven harvesting from the ripe vines and casting them into the winepress of God's wrath.

 

So, there is a tribulation time, and there is God's wrath, but while they are connected, they are yet two separate events.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Lady Administrators

Sorry I went over your education level here.

1.Concrete nouns
2.Abstract nouns

1.Persons, places, things
2.Ideas

Maybe this simple chart will help.

Rapture cant be a concrete noun, and anyone with an education can mock us for our use of it as one.
We should care to be correct.

The dead in Christ RISE first, so it is a resurrection.

It is also the redemption of our bodies.

It is not a feeling of euphoria.

prophet, my statement about being adult applies specifically to you. My education level is higher than yours, I can guarantee that.  

 

I said use resurrection. It is, because the dead will rise...but the LIVE people are not dead. Yes, it is the redemption of the body: being CAUGHT UP.  Too bad you can't wrap your head around that fact. Now, you are being warned. Stop acting like a spoiled child that has to insult people in order to seem relevant.  

 

As to "arguing doctrine with men..."  This isn't church.  It's a discussion forum. If you don't like it, leave.  Simple enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

For what, paying attention in 5th grade English?

But no shame on some woman, for trying to argue doctrine with men?

No wonder our churches are a mess.

 

No...shame on you for your cutting and derogatory remarks that you make toward others. As a man, you choose to be part of this forum...a forum with female moderators. It's your choice. Shame on you...as a man, you should be setting an example of how to act toward others and how to treat a lady. Well, you are setting an example, and it's not very Christ-like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

prophet, my statement about being adult applies specifically to you. My education level is higher than yours, I can guarantee that.

I said use resurrection. It is, because the dead will rise...but the LIVE people are not dead. Yes, it is the redemption of the body: being CAUGHT UP. Too bad you can't wrap your head around that fact. Now, you are being warned. Stop acting like a spoiled child that has to insult people in order to seem relevant.

As to "arguing doctrine with men..." This isn't church. It's a discussion forum. If you don't like it, leave. Simple enough.

The point isn't to 'appear relevant', no Christian should be motivated by that sort of vanity.

The point is to limit the discussion to the words that can be cross-referenced in the KJV.


I'll admit to being coarse on purpose, to make a point, that the meaning of non-Biblical terms is unimportant and a side-track to the actual study of God's Word.

If it is too much, then I apologize and will tone down my responses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Lady Administrators

Even the KJB doesn't command that discussions must be limited to words that can be cross-referenced in itself.  If man does it, he is being extra-biblical.

 

Points can be made without coarseness...and since the Bible tells us to speak with grace, coarseness actually is in diametric opposition to the KJB.

 

You are the one who made an issue out of "non-Biblical terms"...unnecessarily.

 

Apology accepted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

You assume we will know the exact day the tribulation begins. I suspect that, if we ARE here, we will wake up as any other day, and not realize the Lord's clock has begun.  Now, if you are correct, and we are raptured out, then yes, those remaining will have a zero hour-they can look at the event and say, "Yes, they all disappeared at exactly 3:12pm Tuesday the 15th of whatever, on such and such a date."  But again, there is NO scriptural evidence that shows Jesus coming and taking His people, except for in Rev 14, where we have an abundantly clear picture of Jesus, after the seventh, (the last) trumpet, IN the clouds, reaping His harvest, immediately prior to the reaping of the clusters of the vine, which are then cast into the winepress of God's wrath.  Show me a clearer view of the catching-up.

 

Interestin' thought.

Many people think America is not mentioned in the scriptures: irregardless, what if people

in America aren't mentioned, because they don't see things happening, atleast not immediately, and just aren't involved with the 'end times'?

I find that possible. Not prOBable, but my imagination could conceive the notion. Lazy America, and maybe blind to what is really going on.

 

A new movie idea!!

 

(on a lighter point, I guess...)

 

:godisgood:

Edited by Genevanpreacher
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Interestin' thought.

Many people think America is not mentioned in the scriptures: irregardless, what if people

in America aren't mentioned, because they don't see things happening, atleast not immediately, and just aren't involved with the 'end times'?

I find that possible. Not prOBable, but my imagination could conceive the notion. Lazy America, and maybe blind to what is really going on.

 

A new movie idea!!

 

(on a lighter point, I guess...)

 

:godisgood:

All those constantly trying to fit America into Scripture, and specifically the end-times, seem to cause more harm than good.

 

What about Brazil, India, Japan, Korea (or many others)? These are significant nations, some with ever growing economic, military and cultural influence. Why aren't these "prophecy preachers" trying to fit them into the Revelation?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

All those constantly trying to fit America into Scripture, and specifically the end-times, seem to cause more harm than good.

 

What about Brazil, India, Japan, Korea (or many others)? These are significant nations, some with ever growing economic, military and cultural influence. Why aren't these "prophecy preachers" trying to fit them into the Revelation?

 

Perhaps those from Brazil, India, Japan, Korea (or many others) do think so of their own countries.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Perhaps those from Brazil, India, Japan, Korea (or many others) do think so of their own countries.  

There may be some there thinking such, but thus far I've not read of them, and if they are they aren't on the scale of the American "prophecy preachers". Of course I imagine there is much more money to be collected from Americans by trying to tell them how they fit into the end-times than there would be simply saying, "America isn't mentioned in Scripture"; or "watch China, they are on the rise".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

I believe the center of Revelation prophecy is, indeed, Israel-the nations that stand against her are also in some view, though for wrath. And while certainly the entire glOBe will be involved in some manner, and by the end, will all be standing against Israel, either directly or in conviction, there is no need to focus on any of them.

 

That's why I have no issue with believing that believers will endure till just before the wrath-because, even though the prophecy is primarily about Israel, and events surrounding her, there are still other nations present. Just because its not about the church, doesn't mean the church will be gone, or believers will be gone. God's focus is His focus, but it doesn't mean everyone else must be gone for Him to focus on a certain group. For 2000 years the focus has been the churches, but Israelites are still here.  Before that, Israel was the focus, but there were other nations around, too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Actually, America is indeed found in the Bible. When we see the phrase "all nations" in Revelation, that would include America.

Revelation 7:9 (KJV)
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white rOBes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 12:5 (KJV)
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

Revelation 14:8 (KJV)
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 15:4 (KJV)
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Revelation 18:3 (KJV)
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Revelation 18:23 (KJV)
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Actually, America is indeed found in the Bible. When we see the phrase "all nations" in Revelation, that would include America.

Revelation 7:9 (KJV)
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white rOBes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 12:5 (KJV)
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

Revelation 14:8 (KJV)
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 15:4 (KJV)
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Revelation 18:3 (KJV)
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Revelation 18:23 (KJV)
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

We've already discussed that "all nations" are mentioned, but America itself is not. In fact, it's possible there won't even be an America at that time. We don't know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

So, you've never seen a parrot?

Or, you possibly did, but couldn't discern it from a crow, cuz you aren't a parrot?

The South called, they want their dufus back. Run along.

 

All fun aside mr prophet. The prOBlem we have here is whether the same Spirit of God would teach born again believers so drastically different in this or any other fundamental doctrine.

You and your couple of buddies on this forum are not being taught for the Holy Spirit at all but another spirit. Whether the spirit of some prideful muttenhead whose books you worship or a worst spirit only the Lord knows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

All fun aside mr prophet. The prOBlem we have here is whether the same Spirit of God would teach born again believers so drastically different in this or any other fundamental doctrine.

You and your couple of buddies on this forum are not being taught for the Holy Spirit at all but another spirit. Whether the spirit of some prideful muttenhead whose books you worship or a worst spirit only the Lord knows.

 

Wow. They said somewhat the same thing about the Lord. That must mean...?

 

Matthew 10:25  It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

 

Matthew 12:24  But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but byBeelzebub the prince of the devils.

 

Luke 11:19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. Edited by Genevanpreacher
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

 

Wow. They said somewhat the same thing about the Lord. That must mean...?

 

Matthew 10:25  It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

 

Matthew 12:24  But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but byBeelzebub the prince of the devils.

 

Luke 11:19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

 

 

No insults intended and I could be directing this to myself and all those who hold to a literal Scripture interpretation and not the imaginative preterist view which could so easily be twisted in any direction.

BUT because I hold to this literal interpretation and at times, accept typology, I DOUBT my way of thinking is influenced by anyone or any spirit apart from the Holy Spirit.

 

The dangers of subjective interpretation is OBvious to most. If one abandons literal interpretation as the predominant method of interpretation then you are open to any imaginings of the mind, preconceived notions of doctrine or other spirits.

 

It takes no brain scientist to know that the worlds religions are all backed and promoted by demonic principalities intended to keep the lost, lost and religious. The same type of influences work within fundamental groups  in my opinion.

 

I know you three amigoes all claim that your subjective views of Scripture are literal but you are wrong. You presume that appling man's twisted records of history to your Scriptural views lend them weight when they actually do the opposite. It causes you to ignore way too much literal interpretation for me and most to accept the ideas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

Ah, typology, I like that subject. Let's look at typology in the light of the tribulation

 

Noah and the flood:  God's wrath fell on the earth and its inhabitants with the great flood to destroy all life off the earth. But Noah found grace in God's eyes, and He spared him and his family, along with some animals. But He didn't remove Noah completely from the tribulation of that time, instead, he lifted him to ride it out safely atop the judgment.

 

Lot was the one righteous man in Sodom, and we may presume Gomorrah and the other three cities of the plains destroyed by God. But the Lord, in preserving Lot, didn't remove him from all tribulation, but allowed him to escape the wrath of God, and remove to another place. yet he still had to endure loss and still had trouble associated with it.

 

Of course, we see Enoch, who walked with God, and was not, for the Lord took him. This removeal in itself, as a type of the catching away, doesn't seem to be at all related to missing tribulation or trouble, just a removal, so is it typology for the catching up? Same with Elijah being taken up, no trouble related to it, just a removal.  

 

Understand, I am not assuming that you use these particular events as typology for the tribulation and catching up, but these are some that are typically used, and the more I consider them, the less they seem to promise a catching away from the time of tribulation, and more a promise to preserve us and protect us, to cause us to ride above the storms of God's judgments against the wicked, while still present to witness them.

 

But this is how I understand them.  It was mentioned above the idea that God would teach His people differently-of course, like the one who mentioned it, I don't believe He does, I think we too often look at scripture according to our thoughts and yes, whether we want to admit it or not, we have all been influenced in some manner from a teacher or preacher; not that we're parrots or sheep, (though we are sheep, but not in that way), but surely its impossible NOT to be influenced by men we respect for their wisdom and understanding. Not sure what we can do about that-unless we altogether reject any human teachers and preachers, but to do so would be against the word of God, and those types ALWAYS fall into weird error.  

 

Fortunately, I don't see the subject of rapture, (yes, I said it) timing as fundamental, as important to one's faith or salvation, nor even something that, depending on what we believe, would reject the direct teachings of Christ, except for those who believe there will be no catching up. I believe we all agree that it will happen, and it will happen when the Lord deems it is time to happen, and I suspect there is not one of us here that would not be willing to repent and seek forgiveness if they are found wrong on the day of judgment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

 

 

Of course, we see Enoch, who walked with God, and was not, for the Lord took him. This removeal in itself, as a type of the catching away, doesn't seem to be at all related to missing tribulation or trouble, just a removal, so is it typology for the catching up? Same with Elijah being taken up, no trouble related to it, just a removal. 

 

Elijah knew 3 1/2 years of tribulation - drought. Was he kept from it? Or was he supplied miraculously through it?

And it came to pass after a while, that the brook dried up, because there had been no rain in the land. 

Yes & no - his brook dried up.

 

And Baruch - Jeremiah's faithful companion & scribe:

Thus shalt thou say unto him, The LORD saith thus; Behold, that which I have built will I break down, and that which I have planted I will pluck up, even this whole land. And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest. 

 

Note also: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.   

Why should those days be shortened if the elect have been raptured before the trib?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Who's Online   0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 9 Guests (See full list)

    • There are no registered users currently online
×
×
  • Create New...