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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
         11
      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

Way Of Life - Hating The Rapture

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Geneva,

you confuse our use of the term "Tribulation" in the context of end times events with a general use of the word "tribulation."  We believe that Christians can go through all kinds of "tribulation" on this earth, but there is a distinct period of time which Jesus called "great tribulation" (Mt. 24:21) that occurs just prior to the 2nd coming of Christ.  Of course Christians can, will, and have suffered for Christ.  As it stands today, if the Lord does not return soon, we will be headed for some persecution right here in America before too long.

 

But that is not what we are talking about.  We are talking about a specific period of time called "The Tribulation" which contains a series of events that occur in rapid succession prior to the Lord's 2nd Coming to Earth, before which the Church will be caught up (i.e. the "rapture of the church.")

 

There is no reason to confuse the issue by continually misapplying terms.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Unfortunately there is much confusion regarding tribulation in general as well as with regards to there being a Great Tribulation and the whole concept of whether Christians will suffer persecution (tribulation) and just what that means or if they will be saved from suffering any tribulation.

 

When that economic downturn hit hard around '08 there were some Christians who couldn't believe they were hit hard by that. They complained the preachers had told them they wouldn't suffer any tribulation but would be protected from and spared such. Many of these pointed to teachings regarding the rapture with some even wondering why they were still here. Perhaps some of these did hear sermons saying such things but likely as not, many were simply confused by sermons they failed to understand.

 

Some of those folks dropped out of church over the matter. Some others moved to a mid or post tribulation view. Some of those have joined the growing number of "Christian preppers" who believe they will be here for at least half the Tribulation or perhaps most of it. Some of these even seem to think what they've seen in movies like Left Behind about there being a Christian underground fighting the anti-christ is real and they are preparing for such by learning military tactics, computer hacking, etc.

 

From my talks with folks over the years, as well as from what I've read, it seems there are many Christians very confused about many things, including things regarding persecution, tribulation, and the end times.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Geneva,

you confuse our use of the term "Tribulation" in the context of end times events with a general use of the word "tribulation."  We believe that Christians can go through all kinds of "tribulation" on this earth, but there is a distinct period of time which Jesus called "great tribulation" (Mt. 24:21) that occurs just prior to the 2nd coming of Christ.  Of course Christians can, will, and have suffered for Christ.  As it stands today, if the Lord does not return soon, we will be headed for some persecution right here in America before too long.

 

But that is not what we are talking about.  We are talking about a specific period of time called "The Tribulation" which contains a series of events that occur in rapid succession prior to the Lord's 2nd Coming to Earth, before which the Church will be caught up (i.e. the "rapture of the church.")

 

There is no reason to confuse the issue by continually misapplying terms.

 

I was not confusing the issue, as you say, but pointing out that 'some' people use this 'trick' on wording about the 'tribulation' and think they won't suffer at all.

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NOBody in the Baptist world thinks that.  Our history is the history of suffering.  I am wondering why you would introduce such a thought on a Baptist board.

 

I am just speaking about my experiences in the Baptist Churches that I have been involved with over the years, and they were all Independent Baptists and proud of it.

So don't go saying I am introducing something on a Baptist Board as if it couldn't have happened. After all this is 'lazy christian America'.

Come on Steve, you have never had a member of your Church that was nonchalant about living intensely for the Lord?

If you haven't, you are really blessed.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

 

 

 

I have said it before in these sames debates. there is little Scriptural evidence on a whole to support anything but a pre trib rapture. What don't you folks get about "no man knoweth" and thief in the night. 3.5 years into an OBvious reign of an antichrist is HARDLY no man knoweth.

This aint rocket surgery Mike, come on.

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I do kinda 'hate the rapture', also. It just gives people a false hope that we will not suffer any persecution. 

Some in the Baptist realm need to read 2 Timothy 3:12 and think a bit....

 

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

 

Well, sorry to say this but if a person were living for the Lord today they truly would understand persecution far more than any other human on earth.

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Well, sorry to say this but if a person were living for the Lord today they truly would understand persecution far more than any other human on earth.

 

Exactly! IF. (that's a big 'if', if u couldn't tell)

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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I have said it before in these sames debates. there is little Scriptural evidence on a whole to support anything but a pre trib rapture. What don't you folks get about "no man knoweth" and thief in the night. 3.5 years into an OBvious reign of an antichrist is HARDLY no man knoweth.
This aint rocket surgery Mike, come on.


Oh, it seems you dont read the Scripture for yourself, or you would have seen this:

1Th 5:4-5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day:we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Apparently, you are just parroting others, and can't even read IThes 5- 2Thes 2, or you would know that only the lost will be surprised by this 'thief in the night'.
Maybe many of the teachers, like Darby, weren't children of Light, who you parrot second hand.

There is not one single hint towards a "Pre-Trib" Resurrection, in the Scripture.

Try using the Biblical terms, first of all.
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Cut out the pejoratives. Just because someone says something someone else doesn't like doesn't mean they don't read scripture themselves.

Rapture. As in pre-trib. Can't wait to be caught away...which is a definition of rapture and as such an appropriate term.

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Cut out the pejoratives. Just because someone says something someone else doesn't like doesn't mean they don't read scripture themselves.

Rapture. As in pre-trib. Can't wait to be caught away...which is a definition of rapture and as such an appropriate term.

What's wrong with "resurrection"?

It is a concrete noun.

"Rapture" is an idea, like love, joy , peace, etc. It can't be used to mean an event, and God didn't use it to do so.

Resurrection is an event, and God did use it.

Stop me when I've said something wrong....
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Use resurrection. I have no prOBlem with that...but those that are alive at the time we are "caught up" (scripture words...) aren't resurrected cuz they aren't dead. They are caught up...raptured.

The specific term of rapture might not be in the KJB, but the meaning is. There is not one thing wrong with using the term.

Ideas are nouns...and since God used men to pen the words "caught up" to describe the action of the event, the word rapture - which comes from an old french word meaning caught away - works well.

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Oh, it seems you dont read the Scripture for yourself, or you would have seen this:

1Th 5:4-5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day:we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Apparently, you are just parroting others, and can't even read IThes 5- 2Thes 2, or you would know that only the lost will be surprised by this 'thief in the night'.
Maybe many of the teachers, like Darby, weren't children of Light, who you parrot second hand.

There is not one single hint towards a "Pre-Trib" Resurrection, in the Scripture.

Try using the Biblical terms, first of all.

 

Only a parrot thinks he can recognize another. Aint that right little birdie

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Actually, there are many hints toward a Pre-Trib Rapture.

One such hint is

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

God will not pour out His wrath on His own, but on the wicked.  And that wrath will be throughout the Earth.

No need looking for me when that period comes, because I won't be here... you won't find me.

 

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Actually, there are many hints toward a Pre-Trib Rapture.

One such hint is

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

God will not pour out His wrath on His own, but on the wicked.  And that wrath will be throughout the Earth.

No need looking for me when that period comes, because I won't be here... you won't find me.

 

Of course God will not pour out his wrath on his redeemed people. His wrath is hell, & believers will then be with God in glory. That is not what you understand as the PreTR.

 

Tribulation & wrath are different. Tribulation allows repentance, & is suffered by both believers & unbelievers. Wrath is final, suffered only by unbelievers. 

Edited by Covenanter
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Only a parrot thinks he can recognize another. Aint that right little birdie

So, you've never seen a parrot?

Or, you possibly did, but couldn't discern it from a crow, cuz you aren't a parrot?

The South called, they want their dufus back. Run along.

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Use resurrection. I have no prOBlem with that...but those that are alive at the time we are "caught up" (scripture words...) aren't resurrected cuz they aren't dead. They are caught up...raptured.

The specific term of rapture might not be in the KJB, but the meaning is. There is not one thing wrong with using the term.

Ideas are nouns...and since God used men to pen the words "caught up" to describe the action of the event, the word rapture - which comes from an old french word meaning caught away - works well.

Sorry I went over your education level here.

1.Concrete nouns
2.Abstract nouns

1.Persons, places, things
2.Ideas

Maybe this simple chart will help.

Rapture cant be a concrete noun, and anyone with an education can mock us for our use of it as one.
We should care to be correct.

The dead in Christ RISE first, so it is a resurrection.

It is also the redemption of our bodies.

It is not a feeling of euphoria.
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I have said it before in these sames debates. there is little Scriptural evidence on a whole to support anything but a pre trib rapture. What don't you folks get about "no man knoweth" and thief in the night. 3.5 years into an OBvious reign of an antichrist is HARDLY no man knoweth.

This aint rocket surgery Mike, come on.

You assume we will know the exact day the tribulation begins. I suspect that, if we ARE here, we will wake up as any other day, and not realize the Lord's clock has begun.  Now, if you are correct, and we are raptured out, then yes, those remaining will have a zero hour-they can look at the event and say, "Yes, they all disappeared at exactly 3:12pm Tuesday the 15th of whatever, on such and such a date."  But again, there is NO scriptural evidence that shows Jesus coming and taking His people, except for in Rev 14, where we have an abundantly clear picture of Jesus, after the seventh, (the last) trumpet, IN the clouds, reaping His harvest, immediately prior to the reaping of the clusters of the vine, which are then cast into the winepress of God's wrath.  Show me a clearer view of the catching-up.

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