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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
         11
      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

Matthew 24

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Genevanpreacher
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

You might not see a prOBlem with the other signs but they are specific and plain - and as yet unfulfilled.
And it is the generation that sees those signs which shall not pass.

And fleeing the city...... of course the only time that has ever happened was AD70, wasn't it.
Well, guess what - there is still a city and it is still inhabited by Jews. Considering the other signs are clearly as yet unfulfilled, and the potential for the fleeing of the city is still there, it makes no sense to tie down that event to AD70 - there is no Scriptural reason to do so.

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Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

There have been many "tribulations since AD 70. 

Think about the Crusades, when many were killed for their faith.
Think about the 20th Century, when more than 6,000,000 Jews were killed in Adolph Hitler's gas chambers.



Sorry Covenanter, but Preterism doesn't agree with Scripture or history.
 

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DaveW, SFIC,

 

You haven't replied to the Scriptural points I made. Your arguments would be so much more convincing if you offered Scriptural reasons for not discussing the points I have made. I have sought to consider them in general terms as possible interpretations.

 

How many times in history did the Jerusalem Jewish believers flee from the city to the mountains in accordance with Jesus' warning in Luke 21:20-22 ? 

And how many times would God destroy the husbandmen who rejected & killed the Son of God? That tribulation is unique in history. And who are/were/will be the "others" to whom the vineyard is given? 

Was the wrath of Hitler more terrible than the wrath of God? 

The great tribulation Jesus warns against would be unique in history, quite separate from the tribulations believers suffer at the hands of the ungodly, & tribulations all suffer in wars & "natural" disasters through the Gospel age. Christians on all sides suffered in WWII, not just Jews. 

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It would be so much more convincing if you properly addressed the points that have been brought up properly.

Your normal MO (as with JW'S, Mormons, etc) is to introduce so many points that you don't have to answer any of them and can simply sidestep from one to another when it gets sticky.

I asked about ALL the signs mentioned in the passage - which "that Generation" will see.
You conveniently left out those verses in their entirety, and refused to address them at all.

As to tribulation - it plainly says:
 21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

There will never be as great tribulation on as that seen at this time - and it is very plain on its meaning.
There has been greater tribulation seen than the AD70 destruction, and to deny that is simply ridiculous.

How about you stick to a single point and answer it adequately and specifically?

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Your normal MO (as with JW'S, Mormons, etc) is to introduce so many points that you don't have to answer any of them and can simply sidestep from one to another when it gets sticky.

Not true - it is necessary to consider the passage, not just isolated verses. When YOU take a single point, you are isolating it from the context.  

I asked about ALL the signs mentioned in the passage - which "that Generation" will see.
You conveniently left out those verses in their entirety, and refused to address them at all.

Not true - I did address them in posts #19 & #20.

As to tribulation - it plainly says:
 21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

There will never be as great tribulation on as that seen at this time - and it is very plain on its meaning.
There has been greater tribulation seen than the AD70 destruction, and to deny that is simply ridiculous.

How about you stick to a single point and answer it adequately and specifically?

Jesus Olivet prophecy IS a single, coherent prophecy, answering the disciples' questions about the destruction of the temple. Questions are an inspired record, but do not imply a complete understanding of the issues. Jesus' answer is the inspired truth.

 

Lifting the whole prophecy & applying to a yet future series of events is not a valid method of interpretation. Many of the predictions are recorded in Acts. 

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Was the wrath of Hitler more terrible than the wrath of God? 

 

Absolutely not.  The world has yet to see the fullness of God's wrath.

 

The Jews have faced persecution many times throughout their history.  But all of that will pale in comparison to the wrath of God unleashed on the world during the latter half of the Tribulation.

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Absolutely not. The world has yet to see the fullness of God's wrath.

The Jews have faced persecution many times throughout their history. But all of that will pale in comparison to the wrath of God unleashed on the world during the latter half of the Tribulation.

That wrath will be uleashed on the Jews, first and foremost, because they will be the kingdom of the Man of Sin, who will reign from Jerusalem (for a very short time ;) )
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That wrath will be unleashed on the Jews, first and foremost, because they will be the kingdom of the Man of Sin, who will reign from Jerusalem (for a very short time ;) )

Absolutely...but, just as in everything that has happened to the Jews, it will affect the whole world (as you indicated with "first and foremost").

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Covey, saying you have no prOBlem and then ignoring the prOBlems is not addressing them.
And you wonder why we don't bother discussing with you............

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Now that we have 'vented' all over each other, has anyone considered the fact that the disciples asked more than one question here?

Read verse 3 -

 

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,  

(1)when shall these things be? and

(2)what shall be the sign of thy coming, 

(possibly 3) and of the end of the world?

 

As a 'partial preterist', it matters to me, that there is more here than is normally taught.

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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Now that we have 'vented' all over each other, has anyone considered the fact that the disciples asked more than one question here?

Read verse 3 -

 

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,  

(1)when shall these things be? and

(2)what shall be the sign of thy coming, 

(possibly 3) and of the end of the world?

 

As a 'partial preterist', it matters to me, that there is more here than is normally taught.

Rather like, in reference to the mark of the beast: Rev 14:9&11:

 

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,"

 

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

 

Notice, there are three requirements here:

 

1: Worship the beast

2: AND his image

3: and receiveth the mark (of his name)

 

I believe there may well be those who receive him mark, but repent, and don't worship. Or maybe those who are forced to receive the mark-if there is no worship, will it count against him?

 

People worry that babies will be given the mark against their will and their p[arents' will, and that it will send them to hell--I believe all three must be done to be counted against one. And even then, can they repent? Assuming its possible.

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Now that we have 'vented' all over each other, has anyone considered the fact that the disciples asked more than one question here?

Read verse 3 -

 

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,  

(1)when shall these things be? and

(2)what shall be the sign of thy coming, 

(possibly 3) and of the end of the world?

 

As a 'partial preterist', it matters to me, that there is more here than is normally taught.

 

Q1 clearly relates to what Jesus has just prophesied, speaking to the disciples, not the Jews: Mat. 24:1-3

These things in v.2 being the temple building they were admiring but these things in v.3 being the events prophesied. Jesus goes in great detail about future events, some are NOT signs of anything in particular, but will happen without prophetic significance. He does give signs by which they will know the destruction is soon to take place, & it is time to leave the city & area. Luke 21:20-21 interprets Mat. 24:15-16 making it clear that Roman army (with it's eagle standards) are the abomination prophesied. He further says it will be before this generation passes. Hebrews 3 indicates that will be within 40 years - soon running out - Repent TODAY!

 

Their questions 2 & 3 are based on assumptions, not the immediate prophecy, that need more examination. The questions aren't necessarily inspired, though the answers are.  

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Q1 clearly relates to what Jesus has just prophesied, speaking to the disciples, not the Jews: Mat. 24:1-3

These things in v.2 being the temple building they were admiring but these things in v.3 being the events prophesied. Jesus goes in great detail about future events, some are NOT signs of anything in particular, but will happen without prophetic significance. He does give signs by which they will know the destruction is soon to take place, & it is time to leave the city & area. Luke 21:20-21 interprets Mat. 24:15-16 making it clear that Roman army (with it's eagle standards) are the abomination prophesied. He further says it will be before this generation passes. Hebrews 3 indicates that will be within 40 years - soon running out - Repent TODAY!

 

Their questions 2 & 3 are based on assumptions, not the immediate prophecy, that need more examination. The questions aren't necessarily inspired, though the answers are.  

 

Good points. I hope others here are considering this also.

(Rightly dividing again, Covenanter!)

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Rather like, in reference to the mark of the beast: Rev 14:9&11:

 

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,"

 

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

 

Notice, there are three requirements here:

 

1: Worship the beast

2: AND his image

3: and receiveth the mark (of his name)

 

I believe there may well be those who receive him mark, but repent, and don't worship. Or maybe those who are forced to receive the mark-if there is no worship, will it count against him?

 

People worry that babies will be given the mark against their will and their p[arents' will, and that it will send them to hell--I believe all three must be done to be counted against one. And even then, can they repent? Assuming its possible.

 

Good example.

I have learned a lot over the years looking at significant details of 'what' is being said.

Sometimes people skim over the 'wording', just because we think we 'already know the scriptures',

but traditional modern teachings have 'lubed' our minds into the thought that there can't be

anything else to see, other than what the 'normal seminarian preacher' can teach.

And that stifles the Spirit of God.

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Now that we have 'vented' all over each other, has anyone considered the fact that the disciples asked more than one question here?

Read verse 3 -

 

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,  

(1)when shall these things be? and

(2)what shall be the sign of thy coming, 

(possibly 3) and of the end of the world?

 

As a 'partial preterist', it matters to me, that there is more here than is normally taught.

 

What gives? You asked the OP, but you've avoided your own OP's question? Who do you believe Christ was directing his response to?

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Now that we have 'vented' all over each other, has anyone considered the fact that the disciples asked more than one question here?

Read verse 3 -

 

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,  

(1)when shall these things be? and

(2)what shall be the sign of thy coming, 

(possibly 3) and of the end of the world?

 

As a 'partial preterist', it matters to me, that there is more here than is normally taught.

When our pastor preached on this he clearly laid out the different questions that were asked, how Jesus answered them, the main views of these, how he understands all this and why.

 

After all that great preaching, one member who had become an "end-times prophecy is everything" extremist, complained to our pastor because he didn't put forth end-times charts like Van Impe or Hagee, and he didn't devote an entire month to relating this passage to Revelation and presenting his (the extremist)s personal views on the end-times.

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What gives? You asked the OP, but you've avoided your own OP's question? Who do you believe Christ was directing his response to?

 

Maybe you should reread my last comment (post #30)

OBviously his disciples present in this set of verses.

But he answered each question in a way that also referenced those who would be his disciples.

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I have a question here-

 

Just who is Jesus Christ, the ever living Son of God Almighty, God in the flesh, talking to in Matthew 24?

His disciples? The Jews? The Lost Tribes? Elvis? Us?

 

Who?

 

 

Concerning the original post --

 

In the direct circumstance of the immediate context and conversation as recorded in this passage, our Lord Jesus Christ was speaking privately to His disciples.  This is in accord with the statement of Matthew 24:3-4a -- "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?  And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?  And Jesus answered and said unto them . . . ."  With a further consideration of the parallel passage in Mark 13, we find that our Lord Jesus Christ was actually only speaking privately to four specifically named disciples.  This is in accord with the statement of Mark 13:3-5a -- "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be?  And what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?  And Jesus answering them began to say . . . ."

________________________________________________

 

Concerning our Lord's answer as it proceeded from Matthew 24:1-31 --

 

In Matthew 24:2 our Lord Jesus Christ spoke a prophetic utterance concerning the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem -- "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things?  Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."  In response to this prophetic utterance, some of the disciples approached the Lord privately and presented two questions unto Him concerning the events of the future.  Thus we read in Matthew 24:3, "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?  And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"  Now, the grammatical structure of these two questions does indicate that these are two grammatically separate questions.  With the first question, the disciples were asking for an indication of the specific timing when the "these things" that the Lord had just pronounced concerning the destruction of the Temple might occur.  With the second question, the disciples added a question concerning the signs by which they might discern the Lord's coming and "the end of the world."  Grammatically, by the fact that the employed the singular word "sign" to encompass both the Lord's coming and "the end of the world," it would appear that they considered these two elements of the future to be directed connected unto one another.  On the other hand, although their questions were presented as two distinct questions in grammatical structure, it is uncertain how closely they may have connected the events of these two questions in their thinking.  It is possible that the disciples directly connected the event of the Temple's destruction in the future with the event of the Lord's return and "the end of the world."  It is also possible that they simply took up the occasion of the Lord's prophetic utterance to ask concerning a matter of the future that was much more pressing upon their minds (since the Lord was already engaging in prophetic utterances).

 

What then do we find in our Lord's answer as presented in Matthew 24:4-31.  To me, it is worthy of note that throughout this passage our Lord's does not provide even a single element of information in answer to the disciples' first question concerning the timing for the destruction of the Temple.  Rather, our Lord focuses His entire answer on their second question concerning the sign of His coming and "of the end of the world."  In verses 4-5 our Lord immediately focuses upon the matter of His coming by warning His disciples not to be deceived by the declarations of false Christ's.  In verse 6 our Lord then speaks concerning the matter of the end, saying, "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."  Following this, in verses 7-14 our Lord presents an entire list of events and activities that would occur before the end would come and that would lead to the end.  Indeed, our Lord concluded this portion of His answer concludes with verses 13-14, saying, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

 

In the flow of this context, the relative adverb "when," with which Matthew 24:15 begins, signals the turning point in our Lord's answer concerning the sign of His coming and "of the end of the world."  From this point the Lord will be providing a specific answer to that question.  Indeed, again in verses 23-26 our Lord warns concerning the claims of false Christs.  Then in verses 27-31 (as a direct contrast to the false claims of the false Christs) our Lord prophetically presents the actual signs of His coming, saying, "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

Some thoughts for consideration.

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Thank you, Scott & Geneva, for carefully reasoned posts to explain your understanding of the passage.

 

Like Geneva, I find it strange that you do not see the temple timing destruction in the Lord's answer. If we read Mat. 23 before 24, we see that Jesus is openly teaching the multitude, and to his disciples and then directly addressing the scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! He concludes that open address: Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.      

The same words are used in Mat. 24:34 to emphasise that the generation that saw their Messiah & rejected him would suffer the judgement of God. Luke 21:20-22 give specific signs of the imminent destruction - signs that were clearly understood, so that the Christians saw them & fled the city. 

 

It is easy & OBvious for us to see: what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? as a question about the second coming for final judgement, with all the rapture/trib/resurrection etc implcations. BUT, it is highly unlikely that the disciples had these questions in mind. Even after Calvary, the resurrection, & 40 days of instruction about things pertaining to the kingdom of God they still asked: Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

 

They clearly expected Jesus to declare himself king, rally his disciples & take over Israel & restore the nation to its splendor as in the days of David & Solomon. 

 

And the "coming" they were expecting according to his teaching would be a military victory over his enemies: 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

 

That "coming" took place in AD 70. Paul was expecting the judgement on the Jerusalem Jews who rejected & opposed the Gospel:

14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. (1 Thes. 2)

I do NOT see Jesus pronouncing perpetual judgement against the Jewish race (aka generation.) Forgiveness was declared for the repentant Jews, & many thousands welcomed the Gospel in Apostolic times. However true religion was no longer focused on the temple & Jerusalem but on Jesus himself & companies of believers everywhere, as he explained:

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4)

 

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