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Matthew 24


Genevanpreacher

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I quote Scripture to support what I believe. It is NOT a private interpretation. 

 

Now I challenge you - quote Scripture to (1) show my reasoning from Scripture to be false, & (2) show your own reasoning.

No, you showed us James' role in the church at Jerusalem.  

You did NOT show FROM SCRIPTURE how Paul was referring to the Jerusalem church and James in II Thess. 2.  That is pure conjecture, contrived to fit your preterist view.  There is absolutely no Scriptural cross-reference linking the two things.

 

IF what you are saying is true (and that is a really big "IF"!!!), then when was v. 8 fulfilled???

 

You keep looking at the "history" - I'll keep looking at the Scripture...

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The leading Christian in Jerusalem before the destruction was James, as I have shown. Have you other suggestions, derived from Scripture?  

 

So where does Scripture teach that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way?

 

I am interested in someone answering this second question.

Any takers?

 

And, I am sorry to sound one-sided here, but you may be use to this, I see Covenanters 'theory' just as believable as the 'Holy Spirit' theory, if not a bit more.

(No disrespect meant at all for either, by using the word 'theory') 

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It is not a theory, it is Bible.  Pulling one verse out of many that  help explain what that one verse is teaching does not a doctrine make.  Context is vital for true understanding.   As does dovetailing with other verses.

 

1 Cor 3 clearly teaches the same principle  -  Speaking about "any man", etc - "Know ye not [note that the same "ye" is used...plural, yes, but speaking to individuals, not just a church body] that ye are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, whose temple ye are." 

 

2 Cor. 6:16 "...WE are the temple of the living God..."  Paul wasn't part of the Corinthian church...the "we" there was inclusive of him and any other believer...

 

1 Tim 1:13, 14  "Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me...that good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us."

 

Rom. 8:9-11 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

 

John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

 

The Greek meaning for the word we have in Engish as temple is : "a temple, a shrine, that part of the temple where God himself resides."  God dwells within His people individually.

 

Yes, most definitely where two or three Christians are gathered, God is there.  How can He be otherwise when He indwells believers individually.  Teaching that it is only the corporate body removes individual responsibility to remain right with God...

 

There are more, but I think these will suffice. During the OT economy, God dwelt in the temple made by hands...but now He indwells individuals as noted by these few verses. 

 

For sure, where 2 or 3 are gathered He is there...but not in the same way that He was in the OT - by simply coming on them.  But by indwelling. 

 

You and us are plural. 

 

1Pe 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

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So where does Scripture teach that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way?
 

2Thessalonians 2:6-7

 

2Thessalonians 2:6-7 does not mention the Holy Spirit.  That is Brethren teaching, and where do they get that from?  When I was in the Brethren we were constantly taught that it is from Gen 6:3. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Which has nothing to do with 2 Thess but of the coming flood.  Your whole teaching on the let and hindrance is based on that error.

Paul said the church knew what the let and hindrance were, and the early church remembered and told us.  It was the  Roman Empire and the Emperor, who withheld the coming of the papal antichrist.  There could not be two world rulers in Rome at the time.

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Covenanter, on 27 Nov 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:snapback.png

 

 

2 Thes. 2 was prophesied  & we know Paul's letters were passed round - presumably copied - & his writings would have been widely known - not just to the recipients.  The destruction was not going to happen while the believers were still in the city, so that what withholdeth (the Jerusalem church) and he who now letteth  (James - the Jerusalem church leader) would be taken out of the way (by martyrdom or flight.) There are clues as to how to recognise the man of sin, aka antichrist, but they are not positively identified in Scripture. In his parable of the husbandmen, Jesus spoke of coming to destroy those who rejected him. As he then gives the vineyard to others, that is not his final coming for resurrection & judgment. 2 Thes. 1.  

 

So if James was the let, what was the hindrance?  Remember there was a who and a what, And who was the Antichrist.

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You and us are plural. 

 

1Pe 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Sigh.  Yep. I'm well aware of grammatics and mechanics, thanks. I did mention that in my post...along with the scripture that you ignored.

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Covenanter:

We recognise a true prophet by the fulfilment of the prophecy. The inspired record of first C history stops short of the destruction. OBvious 2 Thes. 2 has to occur before 2 Thes. 1, & the 2nd coming refs in 1 Thes. All we know in detail about the destruction is from uninspired historians - mainly non-Christian. There is no doubt that the destruction took place within the lifetime of the generation that rejected their Messiah, but there were no believers there to record it. They acted on Jesus' warnings in his Olivet prophecy to flee the city when they saw the signs.

 

2 Thes. 2 was prophesied  & we know Paul's letters were passed round - presumably copied - & his writings would have been widely known - not just to the recipients.  The destruction was not going to happen while the believers were still in the city, so that what withholdeth (the Jerusalem church) and he who now letteth  (James - the Jerusalem church leader) would be taken out of the way (by martyrdom or flight.) There are clues as to how to recognise the man of sin, aka antichrist, but they are not positively identified in Scripture. In his parable of the husbandmen, Jesus spoke of coming to destroy those who rejected him. As he then gives the vineyard to others, that is not his final coming for resurrection & judgment. 2 Thes. 1.  

 

 

 

 

Covenanter, on 27 Nov 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:snapback.png

 

So if James was the let, what was the hindrance?  Remember there was a who and a what, And who was the Antichrist.

 

While there was a clear Gospel witness in Jerusalem, the Gospel itself was the hindrance to the rise of the man of sin. Remember the days of Lot, that while Lot remained in the city, the destruction from God would not fall. And until the ark was completed & the door closed, the flood did not fall. 

 

James was martyred, & the Jerusalem Christians saw the warning signs Jesus had given, & fled, leaving the city to its prophesied destruction. 

 

Hebrews 2:1-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation 

 

They did neglect so great salvation and they did not escape. 

 

Scripture is absolutely clear. Everything others have said is speculation. 

 

I note Scofield decided the restrainer "can be none other than the Holy Spirit in the church, to be "taken out of the way" so that must clinch it ?!?!?!?

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Sorry, Ian, but you have absolutely no scriptural proof of James/Jerusalem church. It's conjecture.  Mayhap everything else is, too, but there is at least precedence for it being the Holy Spirit that hinders evil, since God is ultimately in control.

 

Again, scripture is not clear that James and the Jerusalem church were the hinderers.  That is pure speculation. 

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While there was a clear Gospel witness in Jerusalem, the Gospel itself was the hindrance to the rise of the man of sin. Remember the days of Lot, that while Lot remained in the city, the destruction from God would not fall. And until the ark was completed & the door closed, the flood did not fall. 

 

James was martyred, & the Jerusalem Christians saw the warning signs Jesus had given, & fled, leaving the city to its prophesied destruction. 

 

Hebrews 2:1-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation 

 

They did neglect so great salvation and they did not escape. 

 

Scripture is absolutely clear. Everything others have said is speculation. 

 

I note Scofield decided the restrainer "can be none other than the Holy Spirit in the church, to be "taken out of the way" so that must clinch it ?!?!?!?

I repeat, who was the man of sin, the Antichrist?

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The fact is, none can withhold the antichrist except God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit is in the world today, keeping us, as Jesus asked His Father to send it for that purpose in John's Gospel.  It is the Comforter, the Holy Spirit that is the restraining force in the world today.  He alone is keeping the antichrist from unleashing his full power upon the Church and the world.  And the Spirit will indeed be taken out of the way.  Not removed, but taken out of the way  so that the antichrist can go forth in the world and deceive many with lying signs and wonders.

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1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

 

[in my opinion, the subject of this chapter is the return of the Lord for us. I may be wrong, but as I read this over and over, this is what I come to.]

 

 

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except... 

 

[then the details of what 'withholdeth' (or keeps away) the return of the Lord/'day of Christ']

 

... there come (1) a falling away first, and (2) that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

 

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

 

[in verse 6 above he tells them that 'now they know'. Also I believe the 'he' in this verse is not in reference to 'that Wicked' in verse 8,

but to the Lord Jesus and His revealing, i.e. the 'rapture']

 

 

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

[The first 'he' seems to be the Lord, who is in control here, and the second 'he' could be "that Wicked" whom the Lord destroys at his coming]

 

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

There.

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And, of course, the Holy Spirit was present in James & the Jerusalem Christians. 

 Bro. Ian, you still have not answered my question.  If the let and hindrance were James and the church, who was the man of sin they were hindering?

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 Bro. Ian, you still have not answered my question.  If the let and hindrance were James and the church, who was the man of sin they were hindering?

 

Simply by their presence in Jerusalem the believers were "letting" the destruction, like Noah, & like Lot in Sodom.  Luke 17:26-30 , Gen 18:23-25 , Gen. 19:15-16

 

John refers to one antichrist coming, & many already being around even now (at the time of writing). 1 John 2:18-19 He doesn't name them there, so how can I? His readers, like the Thessalonians, would know who he was writing about. 

 

However, he does give a clue in Rev. 13:18 & that number can be related to Nero, then viciously persecuting Christians who refused to burn incense to the emperor. The antichristian leaders in Jerusalem were at the same time persecuting the Christians. And then the Jewish rebellion occurred, & the destruction. John re-echoes Jesus' counsel to flee the city - Jerusalem/Babylon -  before the destruction. Rev. 18:4 , Rev. 18:24 , Mat. 23:34-38 

 

It is clear from the opening verses of Revelation that the events prophesied were things which must shortly come to pass ... for the time is at hand. 

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