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DaveW

When Is A Non-Baptist A Baptist?

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I always find it funny when someone who is not a Baptist says they are just the same as a Baptist.
It seems that lots of people think they are just like a Baptist but not many Baptists would agree with them.

I have had many people over the years say they are just the same, but a bit of talking shows they are not Baptist on many things.

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I guess you'd need to define what you mean by Baptist. I figure if someone holds to Baptistic beliefs, then they're a Baptist. Whether or not they're an IFB is another question entirely. There're certainly tons of people that go to 'Baptist' churches that we would disagree with on a lot of issues - but they would still count themselves as baptists, and they may well be so.

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I'm pretty dogmatic about this subject, prOBably bordering on unbending.

 

To me if someone is not willing to take the name Baptist, they are not a Baptist. They can say they are the same all they want, but part of being a Baptist is a willingness and even eagerness to identify with the church that Jesus built.

 

Now some may say that Baptists have not always been called by this name, and they would be correct. But for us today Baptist denotes not only a specific system of belief, but also identifies us as the true churches that have existed since the time of Christ and the Apostles.

 

Some have called me narrow minded for this stance, but that's ok because "narrow is the way."

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Jesus built the Baptist Church?

Can't find that in the Bible.

Jesus' never attached a denominational name on His Church.

 

If He didn't build it then you better find another church!!!!

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I'm pretty dogmatic about this subject, prOBably bordering on unbending.

 

To me if someone is not willing to take the name Baptist, they are not a Baptist. They can say they are the same all they want, but part of being a Baptist is a willingness and even eagerness to identify with the church that Jesus built.

 

Now some may say that Baptists have not always been called by this name, and they would be correct. But for us today Baptist denotes not only a specific system of belief, but also identifies us as the true churches that have existed since the time of Christ and the Apostles.

 

Some have called me narrow minded for this stance, but that's ok because "narrow is the way."

So you are saying that only churches today that have the name Baptist in it are the only true churches? How about other countries where the naming of churches may be different? The church of christ claims that for a church to be true, it cannot have a certain name in it, it has to be in the Bible, are you going along that line of reasoning?

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So you are saying that only churches today that have the name Baptist in it are the only true churches? How about other countries where the naming of churches may be different? The church of christ claims that for a church to be true, it cannot have a certain name in it, it has to be in the Bible, are you going along that line of reasoning?

Brider doctrine.  Their Church claims to be the Bride of Christ, while others are just guests.  LOL

Thought... John was a Baptist.  From what I see in Scripture, John didn't point to his own religion... he pointed to Christ.

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I will recommend a very good book on the subject. You can read it and any others you wish, but make an informed decision on what you believe.

You need to have a better reply that "Jesus was not baptized by John the catholic, or John the Methodist, but by John the Baptist!"

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the BAPTIST acrostic yet.

 

The book, by Evangelist Mike Gass, is called: "A Glorious Church"  subtitled: "A study of the origin, identity, heritage, and integrity of the new Testament Church."

Its published by Striving Together Publications, from Lancaster Baptist Church, Lancaster CA. And most of you know its pastored by Paul Chappell.

 

The crux of the book is that Jesus did establish a called out assembly, gave it a mission, and that a line of churches throughout history has strived to maintain a pure bride of Christ.

 

There is only two times in the gospels that Jesus said he finished something. We all know He finished our redemption on the cross, but in the gospel of John 17:4, Jesus says he finished the work that God has sent him to do. What was finished? If our salvation was finished on the cross, it couldn't have been done in John 17:4.

Answer that question and I personally believe you will be 99% done with your study of the origin of the church.

 

Did Jesus call his work a Baptist church? Nope. Did Jesus establish what we could call a church? Yes. Just as we firmly believe that God has perfectly preserved his Word, He has also guided The church throughout the ages.

 

For me, and this is just my belief the origin of the church started with Jesus and the Baptist church is the closest to that church that I have found. Your mileage may very.  You may be a landmark or separatist, or secessionist, and even Anabaptist. Which ever you prefer to be, make sure you can back it up with scripture and prayer, with lots of study having been done.

 

 

Dr. ROBerson

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I also believe the Baptist Church to be the closest. But closest does not necessarily mean on point.

Close is good when it comes to horseshoes and hand grenades. But suppose close doesn't work for our Lord? Remember, Judas was close... but lost.

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Remember SFIC, Judas was just a person, not the whole called out assembly.

 

We all have saved and unsaved members in our churches.

 

It's the responsibility of the pastor to be on point through the power of the Holy Spirit to lead the church, and for every believer to do the same.

 

 

 

Dr. ROBerson

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I also believe the Baptist Church to be the closest. But closest does not necessarily mean on point.

Close is good when it comes to horseshoes and hand grenades. But suppose close doesn't work for our Lord? Remember, Judas was close... but lost.

 

You said book full with these two lines

 

After 30 years and living all over the world I have yet to see a real New Testament Church.

 

The closest I have seen are missionary works in central and south america but absolutely zero in the states.

 

The NT Church Operating guide and standards are in the Book of Acts. If anyone knows of one like in the Book of Acts, please share the info.

 

The 7 day a week Church where dying to the world and sharing all things common is the standard, praising God and worshipped all day, working to provide for the whole body and not our own ambitions in this nasty world and for entertainment would go out soulwinning.

 

The Amish maybe? Nah, they get the sharing all things part down but are clueless to the rest.

 

We get the soulwinning down pretty good but are clueless to the rest. Seems even the most fundamental Churches are over adminstered and run like corporations.

 

I know we are all set in our ways and American culture to change now and I certainly won't be starting a church myself but can't stop but wonder why noone notices that this maybe why we are so stagnant.

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The thing is, many things taught in,not just our Baptist churches, but also in churches of other denominations as well, don't line up with Scripture.

Even in the Baptist faith, there are many varying belief systems and practices between many different sects or branch..

So, which is closest? Primitive? Southern? Missionary? Landmark? I'm sure you get the point.one church teaches unless you get baptized in their branch, you are not Christ's Bride. (Reeks of self-righteousness, in my opinion) Another teaches one is a member of the Bride if one is saved. Others say other things must be done.

They can't all be right.

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My church is a New Testament church from what I understand that to mean. Our church is not stagnant. It may be small but so is the town. One by one we gain new Christians hungry for the word of God.

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who is Peter preaching too?

 

For a hint see the underlined

Ac 2:5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heavenJews from every country
 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
 10  Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
 13  Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
 14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea (Jews), and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

 

Peter continues by quoting a Jew named David
 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
 37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Is this the Gospel which Paul preached? I thro not.
 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children( the promises are to the Jews), and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generationIs this the gospel of of Grace taught by Paul?
 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.  3000 Jews according to the context.

 

Who is Peter talking too?

 

Ac 3:1 ¶ Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.
 2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;
 3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.
 4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
 5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
 6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
 7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
 8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
 9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:  Who are the people in the temple?  Only Jews are allowed in the temple.

 10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.
 11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.
 12 ¶ And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel (These spoken too are Jews), why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
 13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of JacOB, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
 14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
 17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come (when is the times of refreshing? and why is it their sins wont be blotted out until then, but mine sins are already blotted out?) from the presence of the Lord;  Is this the gospel of Taught by Paul that you and I believed?
 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you what exactly is being preached about Jesus and who preached it?
 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things (when is the restitution of all things?), which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. who are the fathers, the brethren and you?  These are Jews of course.
 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.  who are the children of the prophets, and the fathers?  Jews again
 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquitiesIs anyone saved by turning away from their iniquities?

 

again who is Peter speaking too?

 

Ac 4:1 ¶ And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, They were in the temple preaching and the captains and the saddcees (who don't beleive in the ressurrection) heard them.  Jews are being spoken too again.
 2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.  the people are Jews OBviously.
 3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
 4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.  them are the Jews who heard.  and what was the word they believed on?  It was not the Gospel Paul preached or what you as Independent Baptist believed?  it is a gospel of their resurrected king and messiah, the Christ, coming for his kingdom to which they are encouraged to not only beleive (like we are today) but to repent, be baptised, that in the coming of the Lord they will receive the blotting out (forgiveness of their sins) unlike you and I who HAVE NOW the forgiveness of our sins Eph 1:7, and we needed not to repent of our iniquities but only that we turn to God the repentance Paul taught when he said in Act 17:30 and 26:20.

 

Again and again we see at the time just after Christ Ascension the church is a solely Jewish one either by birth (why one must be born again) or Gentile by conversion to which afterwards they are considered a JEW if in fact there were any Gentiles at Peters preaching in the temple.  My point is you must identify which church to know that the church Peter preached to was of the circumcision and God added to it many Jews and Jewish converts.

 

So we must ask, Which Gospel is being preached?  remember we have not heard Peter say once that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS which Paul said was the gospel he got from Chris himself.

 

It would seem that it was that Christ was of the line of David and is their King, their messiah.  this is what was being preached it is what was earlier preached by Peter the eleven and the 70/72 during Christ earthly ministry.  and this belief was paramount to the coming kingdom had the leadership of the Jews not rejected God the Holy Ghost in Acts 5. We see three times in the Scriptures that the Jews, represented by their leadership, rejected God the father in the OT, God the Son in the Gospels and God the Holy Ghost in Acts 5.

 

OBservation goes a long way in determining who, what, why, when, where, which and how, these are the tools for understanding the preserved interpretation of God's words as found in the Authorized Version. All scriptures is for our learning but not all for our current church doctrine, which church is as important as which Gospel.

 

Ok, now we have some info at our fingertips the church here of baptized believers first of the Gospel preached by John the baptist and some being baptized by John known as the baptist.  which church was john the baptist baptizing?  A Jewish church it would seem and the early church that peter continued could be called a baptist church.  but the gospel is not the gospel of the baptist church today.  So there is no way anyone could claim that their lines go back to John the baptist because they are teaching a different Gospel than John the baptist, Jesus Christ and Peter.

 

Hence no baptist church today can claim John the baptist is of their line and that they are the TRUE church because they are preaching two different gospels.

 

hence what is going on in this thread is nothing more than the carnality of men striving to say I am of one group over another.

 

1Cor 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

 

1Cor 3:1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Edited by AVBibleBeliever

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Jesus, before His ascension, told His disciples, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."  Jesus did not preach a Jewish gospel to His disciples, then gave a different one to Paul-His direction was for them, His disciples, to preach to ALL the earth, everyone. Not later, after the church age, but directly. This was part of what peter was sent to do with Cornelius, and then, we see the gospel begin to spread with the persecution in Jerusalem, believers going out and preaching and churches beginning among the gentiles, with, presuambly, the same gospel they learned from the Jewish believers. They weren't made Jews first, then Christians.

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We have had a family leave our church because they realized they were not Baptist and could not agree with the Baptist Distinctives. Well, they now go to another Baptist church. Like they saying goes, If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it prOBably is a duck.

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We have had a family leave our church because they realized they were not Baptist and could not agree with the Baptist Distinctives. Well, they now go to another Baptist church. Like they saying goes, If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it prOBably is a duck.

 

Huh? So is the other Baptist church not Baptist?

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Before we met, my Wife and broinlaw once visited a church, near here, named "The independent Baptist Tabernacle". But she said they were speaking in tongues and women were dancing with the 'preacher". That may be "independent" but it ain't Baptist. Certainly isn't Biblical.

Edited by heartstrings

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