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A Great Delusion...


DaveW

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To me, the key is this...

 

2 Thessalonians 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

This tells me that they willfully rejected salvation. It was offered and rejected...their minds and hearts were made up. 

 

Brother Dan,

 

This is indeed the common way for viewing and defining the phrase "received not" as employed in this passage -- to indicate that the phrase "received not" implies both a definite hearing of gospel truth and a definite rejection of that gospel truth.  Now, concerning the idea of a "willful rejection" toward the gospel, I would contend that any time an individual encounters the truth of the gospel, but does not yield thereto through repentant faith, that individual has made a willful decision to reject rather than to receive.  However, I am not actually convinced that the phrase "received not" should be narrowed within this context as a reference only to those who have encountered the gospel and refused its call to repentance and faith.  The reason that I am not convinced of such is because of the other descriptives that are presented in the context concerning those who will experience God's work of "strong delusion."  To me (as faulty as I certainly can be), the whole context seems to be universal and absolute in relation to any and all unbelievers at the time wherein the context is intended to apply.

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To all,

 

Just above this I have posted four consecutive postings.  In order to receive full understanding of my thoughts and responses, I would recommend that you read all four of the postings.  I would especially recommend that you read the first of the postings, that is -- post #28.

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Brother Dan,

 

In considering your postings throughout this thread, it appears that you and would not be in agreement concerning the applied timing for God's work of "strong delusion" as presented in 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12.  In addition, although I would have a great deal of agreement with that which you have presented in the above quote, I would disagree and contend that the "revealing" of the Antichrist and the "deceiving work (through miracles)" of the Antichrist occur at different times the first being at the beginning of the seven year Tribulation Period very shortly after the Rapture and the second being at the mid-point of the Tribulation Period when he is directly possessed by Satan.  Just some thoughts for consideration.

 

Thanks Bro. Scott. As I said in my statement; I always reserve the right to be wrong. I certainly don't claim to be right about this, but perhaps there may be a lack of information that I'm leaving out.

 

1. I certainly believe the Antichrist will be revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation Period; however, I also believe that he will be viewed as a man of peace during that time. My personal view based on how I understand scripture is that he won't be revealed as "that Wicked" or "THE Antichrist" until the mid-point of the Tribulation Period...after he has desecrated the temple and proclaimed himself to be God. In my view and understanding, that is the pivotal moment that reveals him for who he really is...the man of sin, son of perdition, that Wicked, the Antichrist...after he boldly proclaims himself as God.

2. Then, that is followed by his deception through lying signs and wonders, etc...

 

I don't know if that makes a difference in what I was trying to relay, but I hope it gives a little more understanding to it.

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Thanks Bro. Scott. As I said in my statement; I always reserve the right to be wrong. I certainly don't claim to be right about this, but perhaps there may be a lack of information that I'm leaving out.

 

1. I certainly believe the Antichrist will be revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation Period; however, I also believe that he will be viewed as a man of peace during that time. My personal view based on how I understand scripture is that he won't be revealed as "that Wicked" or "THE Antichrist" until the mid-point of the Tribulation Period...after he has desecrated the temple and proclaimed himself to be God. In my view and understanding, that is the pivotal moment that reveals him for who he really is...the man of sin, son of perdition, that Wicked, the Antichrist...after he boldly proclaims himself as God.

2. Then, that is followed by his deception through lying signs and wonders, etc...

 

I don't know if that makes a difference in what I was trying to relay, but I hope it gives a little more understanding to it.

 

Ahhhh, with this added information I can say that we are definitely in more agreement concerning these specific matters than at first I thought.  Actually, I would only add to that which you have presented above -- that I myself believe that the initial revealing of the Antichrist (indeed as a man of peace, especially in the Middle East) at the beginning of the Tribulation Period will be when he "confirms the covenant with many [among the people of Israel] for one week [for a seven year period]," as per Daniel 9:27.  Indeed, I would contend that this confirming (signing) of this covenant (some form of treaty), at whatever point after the Rapture it occurs (although I do not believe that it will be very long thereafter), will be the actual beginning of the Tribulation Period.

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Ahhhh, with this added information I can say that we are definitely in more agreement concerning these specific matters than at first I thought.  Actually, I would only add to that which you have presented above -- that I myself believe that the initial revealing of the Antichrist (indeed as a man of peace, especially in the Middle East) at the beginning of the Tribulation Period will be when he "confirms that covenant with many [among the people of Israel] for one week [for a seven year period]," as per Daniel 9:27.  Indeed, I would contend that this confirming (signing) of this covenant (some form of treaty), at whatever point after the Rapture it occurs (although I do not believe that it will be very long thereafter), will be the actual beginning of the Tribulation Period.

 

I'm in complete agreement brother...

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Pastor Scott, thank you for your well thought out and researched reply. As of this time I cannot either egree or disagree whith what you laid out so well. This is simply because it is all an entirely new concept to me, I have simply never heard it before and therefore have never had occasion to study it.

 

I know your time is important and realise you had to take a lot of it to post what you did. Thank you for giving me that time.

 

God bless you as you serve Him.

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My purpose in the original question was to establish if it is actually biblical for the oft used position of "if you don't get saved before the rapture then you can't get saved after".

This phrase - or something like this - is repeated often. (I understand your timing point too).

It is this teaching that I am questioning.
The passage does indeed talk of a strong delusion and I have no prOBlem with that at all, but I don't necessarily read it as an absolute with no hope for them.

I do thank you for your responses and I will take the time to carefully read and examine your points.

Jumping off the verses you gave, I'll see if I can clear up, or possibly, further muddy the waters here.

 

In Rev 13:7, it says, concerning the antichrist, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."  

 

So, there will be saints around during the great tribulation, who will not only be warred againstm, but will indeed be overcome by the Antichrist.

 

So either, some WILL be saved during the tribulation...

 

or...

 

the saints will remain on earth after the start of the tribulation...

 

or...

 

both.

 

but either way, there will be saints here.

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The false-Christ will be revealed after the rapture of the Body of Christ.

The false-Christ will have supernatural powers, so that the whole world will be deceived.

(except the Jewish "evangelists", and " true believers" - saved by their efforts - will be martyred).

I think that many underestimate the supernatural powers given to the false-Christ.

Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders.

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The false-Christ will be revealed after the rapture of the Body of Christ.

The false-Christ will have supernatural powers, so that the whole world will be deceived.

(except the Jewish "evangelists", and " true believers" - saved by their efforts - will be martyred).

I think that many underestimate the supernatural powers given to the false-Christ.

Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders.

 

 

"saved by their efforts"???????

 

Men's own effort was never good enough, is not good enough, and never will be good enough.......

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Mike - this is in part the reason for the question.

 

As I read it, there are people saved during the Tribulation period.

 

Since this is a seven year period it is highly unlikely that too many of them will have been born during that seven years and come to the age where they can understand and make the decision to trust Christ.

 

And we also know that the Gospel is preached during that time.

Rev 14:6  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
 

So, to suggest that the delusion applies only to those who have positively rejected the Gospel makes sense on one hand, but it is not well supported and defined by Scripture.

 

I however do not agree with the revealing being mid trib, as vs 10 of 2 Thess 2 indicates that the revealing ios accompanied not by great tribulation, but by deceit and unrighteousness. This to me is more indicative of the start of the 7 years than the middle.

 

In any case, the revealing being mid only exacerbates the prOBlem of the Gospel being preached after, as now we have only 3 1/2 years for those to grow to understanding, therefore there must be some possibility of salvation after the revealing, regardless of when that revealing is.

 

Since the delusion is related to the revealing in some way (same passage) I must come to the conclusion that there is a "loophole" in the delusion - in some way it does not affect all the unsaved who are alive at the revealing of "that wicked".

 

This is where we must come to some idea that the delusion is not applied universally, but specifically - but what is the determinate?

2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 

Does this verse actually say that if they have heard and rejected the Gospel that there is no longer any hope for them?

 

In fact it only says that all might be damned who beleived not the truth - you can "believe not the truth" without actually hearing the truth - there are plenty of people who believe evolution for instance, without ever hearing about Special creation.

I was one of them, and I Believed not that God created the Heavens and the Earth - but I believed it not because I had never heard of it.

 

This is where I beleive we need to delve further - it is not as simple as "If you are not saved at the Rapture, then it will be too late", as I have heard time and time again.

 

Even those who began this discussion on the side of the great delusion being absolute, have for the most part softened that position a little.

 

I feel like the delusion must not apply universally, but conditionally - for we do see mention of the Gospel being preached, and of saints, in the 7 years.

But what is the condition? This is the crux of the matter.

 

But in any case, we need to be about the Father's work now, for the night cometh, when no man can work.

John 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
 

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I guess part is dependent upon what the Bible means, when it says "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; " 

 

By "revealed" does it mean merely as a man coming into power, or revealed, as in, taking the seat of the Lord and declaring himself to be god?  Will 'he that letteth' be taken out of the way, and THEN the antichrist will come to power, or will he fully reveal himself and declare himself God? So, at what point, then, will the delusion come? When will he that letteth be taken out of the way? When Antichrist first steps onto the stage, or when he declares himself god and demands worship?

 

I believe people will be saved during the tribulation, and they will be saved in the same way all are saved: by faith in Jesus Christ. But I also believe that, once the delusion comes, it will be those who have not had opportunity, or perhaps, direct opportunity. Many have 'heard' of Jesus, and have perhaps had some drawing, but have not had a direct opportunity, someone telling them they need salvation. Perhaps this will only apply to those who have willingly and knowingly rejected Jesus Christ, while those who haven't directly so, may still be saved.

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Even those who began this discussion on the side of the great delusion being absolute, have for the most part softened that position a little.

 

Well now, there is one among us who has not "softened" his position concerning the universality and absoluteness of the "strong delusion" among unbelievers during the time wherein it is administered by the Lord our God.  Yet, as I have already revealed, I do hold to a different position than most concerning the timing for that "strong delusion."  On the other hand, if I still held to the position that the "strong delusion" shall begin with the rapture and the beginning of the seven year Tribulation Period, I also would be somewhat compelled (in order to avoid an apparent contradiction in Biblical teaching) to "soften" the application of that "strong delusion" among unbelievers.

 

__________________________

 

Concerning the timing for the various events/activities mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 & 8-12, I believe the following:

 

1.  ". . . and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition . . ." (v. 3) -- that this occurs at the beginning of the seven year Tribulation Period, that it is the actual start for the Tribulation Period, and that it occurs when the Antichrist establishes his covenant (treaty) with the people of Israel for a seven year period (as per Daniel 9:27).

 

2.  ". . . who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (v. 4) -- that this occurs at the mid-point of the Tribulation Period (as per Revelation 13:1-9).

 

3.  ". . . and then shall that Wicked be revealed . . ." (v. 8) -- that is occurs at the beginning of the Tribulation Period (as per point #1).

 

4.  ". . . whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming . . ." (v. 8) -- that this occurs at the end of the Tribulation Period when our Lord Jesus Christ literally returns unto this earth as King of kings and Lord of lords in order to establish His literal kingdom over the whole world for a literal period of 1000 years (as per Revelation 19:11 - 20:5).

 

5.  ". . . even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (vs. 9-10) -- that this occurs at the mid-point of the Tribulation Period (as per Revelation 13:1-9).

 

6.  "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (vs. 11-12) -- that this occurs in direct relation to the events/activities of verses 9-10, and thus that it occurs at the mid-point of the Tribulation period.

 

Might I then also present Revelation 13:8 as being worthy of notice in relation to this discussion (and especially in relation to my own position within this discussion.  Therein God's Word states, "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."  To me, it is worthy of note what this verse indicates concerning those who shall worship the Antichrist when he enthrones himself in the Temple of God at Jerusalem, proclaiming himself to be deity and requiring all the world to worship him as deity.  Yea, to me the use of the word "all" in this verse is worthy of notice.  Then in relation to those who do worship the Antichrist, it is worthy of notice what Revelation 14:9-11 declares concerning their eternal judgment.

 

So then, concerning my position on this matter --

 

1.  Will unbelievers be able to receive eternal salvation through faith in God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, as personal Savior during the seven year Tribulation Period?  Yes, by the multitudes, but only during the first 3.5 years of that Tribulation Period.

 

2.  So then, will unbelievers be able to receive eternal salvation through faith in God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, as personal Savior during the latter 3.5 years of the Tribulation Period?  No, not even a single one.  (Still absolute and universal in my position, not at all "softened")

 

Just some thoughts for consideration.

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When do the two witnesses preach?

 

Brother Mike,

 

Were you presenting this question toward me?  If so, then my answer would be as follow -- The two witnesses shall preach under the mighty power of God in Jerusalem throughout the first 3.5 years of the Tribulation Period, shall be killed at the mid-point of the Tribulation Period, and shall then be resurrected by the power of God 3.5 days later to ascend into heaven (as per Revelation 11:1-13).  On the other hand, if this question was not presented to me, . . . weelll, then you can just ignore my intrusion.

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Brother Mike,

 

Were you presenting this question toward me?  If so, then my answer would be as followers -- The two witnesses shall preach under the mighty power of God in Jerusalem throughout the first 3.5 years of the Tribulation Period, shall be killed at the mid-point of the Tribulation Period, and shall then be resurrected by the power of God 3.5 days later to ascend into heaven (as per Revelation 11:1-13).  On the other hand, if this question was not presented to me, . . . weelll, then you can just ignore my intrusion.

It was presented to whomever wanted to answer.

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