A Great Delusion...

[DaveW]

2 These 2
 10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
 12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

To begin with - I am undecided on this matter, not having done a proper study on it. I am not looking to argue for or against.
People often point to this passage to say that those who reject salvation before the rapture will have no opportunity for salvation after it.

Keeping in mind:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

I was wondering if there are any other passages to support that view, or if it all hangs on this one passage?

Thanks.

[John81]

Someone posted a counter-argument to the generally accepted view a long while back here. His conclusion was the above Scripture wasn't referring to those left behind after the rapture but I don't recall his exact argument.

 

A few others have cited a couple other verses saying they point to people being blinded from coming to Christ after the rapture but if I recall they were Old Testament passages that, unless they had dual meaning, were relating to something else.

 

Sorry, I know that's not very helpful, but it's been a long while since I looked into this so at the moment, that's all I got.

[Donald]

I believe that the Bible means what it says and says what it means.
Therefore, this verse means that they will not be allowed to get saved.

But, we can’t say that this whole Doctrine hangs on this one verse.
Because one greatly repeated and settled Doctrine in the area of salvation, is that it is always “of God”.....
“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:44)
---------
For all time, God is the one who gives people an opportunity to get saved;
All 2 Thessalonians 2:11 does, is explain how it will be done during the tribulation!
 

[wretched]

I believe that the Bible means what it says and says what it means.
Therefore, this verse means that they will not be allowed to get saved.

But, we can’t say that this whole Doctrine hangs on this one verse.
Because one greatly repeated and settled Doctrine in the area of salvation, is that it is always “of God”.....
“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:44)
---------
For all time, God is the one who gives people an opportunity to get saved;
All 2 Thessalonians 2:11 does, is explain how it will be done during the tribulation!
 

 

Can you clarify this post Donald? It looks and smells of TULIPs at first and second glance.

 

The Lord has spread His Gospel, His Word and His Spirit over all the world so that they are without excuse who reject it. Don't you agree?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Brother Dave,

 

Concerning 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, it is my belief that the passage means exactly what it appears to say in that at the given time wherein it applies, all who have not yet believed the truth shall be given a "strong delusion" of heart and mind by God Himself so that they will definitely believe "a lie."  As such, I believe that it will no longer be possible for these individuals to receive the truth of the gospel unto salvation. 

 

However, in contradiction to that which is commonly taught, I do not believe that the timing for this "work of God" is at the beginning of (and throughout) the seven year Tribulation Period, but is from the middle point of that seven year Tribulation Period.  I believe that this "work of God" coincides with the event wherein the Antichrist shall set himself in the temple of God, claiming himself to be God, and with the Antichrist's requirement that all men take his number and worship him.  In fact, I believe that the particular lie that the Lord our God will cause the unbelievers of that time to accept through the "strong delusion" is that claim of the Antichrist concerning his deity.  Thus I do indeed believe that any and all who are yet unbelievers by that middle point of the Tribulation Period will no longer be able (by God's own work of the "strong delusion") to receive Christ by faith for salvation, will certainly take the Antichrist's number, and will certainly worship the Antichrist as god.

 

I would also contend that the declaration of Revelation 14:9-11 unifies perfectly with my above position, in that it indicates that all who worship the Antichrist and take his number shall suffer under God's eternal wrath in the lake of fire.  Even so, I would contend that no genuine believer will take the number and worship the Antichrist (which is brought forth at the middle point of the Tribulation Period), but that only unbelievers will take that number and worship the Antichrist.

 

Just my thoughts, for what little they may be worth.

[DaveW]

I appreciate the answers so far.

My reading of the passage is not a 100% lock out - the fact that vs 12 points out that it is still based on belief, and the use of the word "should", for instance.

I just don't find it as categorical as it is usually portrayed.
If there were other verses to support that position it would be easier to accept.

But so far people revert to the same one verse arguments.

Again, I am not settled, just not convinced it means there will be no possibility of salvation after the delusion. I would say it reads as "far harder, but not impossible".

But being unsettled on it I am happy to be convinced - I just think it needs further biblical support.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

I am not aware of any other New Testament passage that communicates these particular things.  As I have stated above, I believe that there are other passages that unify with this one in order to provide a more full understanding.  In this element of unity, I would contend for some form of confirmation.  However, I cannot provide another passage that specifically teaches these specific things in order to confirm them.

 

On the other hand, (without seeking to engage in a lengthy argumentation) may I present some grammatical points for your consideration.  In 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 the plural, third person pronouns "them" and "they" are employed three times.  In the grammatical structure and context, all three of these pronouns would refer to the same group of individuals.  As such, we find a three-fold process concerning God's work upon this group of "them" --

 

1.  "God shall send them strong delusion."

2.  God sends them this "strong delusion" specifically "that they should believe a lie."

3.  God so moves that they should believe this lie (whatever it is) specifically "that they all might be damned."

 

It is worthy of notice that the word "all" herein indicates that every single individual without exception who are grammatically and contextually included in the group of "them" shall end up in damnation specifically because the Lord our God sends His work of "strong delusion" upon them.

 

So then, how is this group of "them" grammatically and contextually defined?  Actually, the answer for this question requires that we move back to verse 10, wherein the plural, third person pronouns "they" and "them" are first employed twice.  As such, we learn that this group of "them" are to be defined as follows:

 

1.  This group of "them" are "they that perish." (v. 10)

2.  This group of "them" are those that perish specifically "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (v. 10)  (Note:  Since this "love of the truth" would have resulted in their salvation, I would contend that the specific matter of truth about which this is referring is the truth of the gospel.)

3.  This group of "them" are they "who believed not the truth [again, I would contend that this is a reference to the truth of the gospel], but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (v. 12)

 

It is also worthy of note that the specific reason ("for this cause") that the Lord our God is moved to "send them strong delusion" is "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."  (For this understanding it is necessary to note the grammatical and contextual connection between the end of verse 10 and the beginning of verse 11.)

 

 

Now, it appears to me in this matter that the primary element of definition for this group of "them" is whether they did or did not receive/believe the truth of the gospel.  Thus I would contend that if an individual in whatever time period this passage covers has received/believed the truth of the gospel, then that individual is not included under the category of the "them."  On the other hand, I would also contend that if an individual In whatever time period this passage covers has not yet received/believed the truth of the gospel, then that individual is included under the category of the "them" (who "all" shall be damned).  In this sense, I only see two mutually exclusive groups -- those who have received/believed the truth of the gospel and those who have not received/believed the gospel.  In order for this passage not to exclude all unbelievers of that given time period from salvation, a third group of individuals must be discovered, as follows:

 

1.  Those who have received/believed the truth of the gospel.

2.  Those who have not received/believed the truth of the gospel.

3.  Those who have not yet received/believed the truth of the gospel, but are not included in group #2 because . . . (?)

[DaveW]

Good argument (in the right sense of the word ).

Certainly I agree with your general points.

I am finding bit difficult to allow it to be definitive with the verses used.

I feel like it is one of those points where we must say something like " the indications are thus, but a definitive position is not 100% certain.

Scripture explains scriptures and having only a single passage means we must proceed with caution.

Thanks.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

(Wow!  This is prOBably the most that I have posted on OB consecutively in one day for quite some time.)

 

A few further considerations from different angles:

 

1.  What are the individually different elements of teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, and which ones of these individual elements do and which ones of these individual elements do not possess Biblical support in other Biblical passages?  (Through answering this question, you may narrow your "doubts" to a smaller number and raise your "certainties" to a higher number.)

 

a.  Verse 9 speaks concerning that Wicked One as one "whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."  Does this element of the passage have Biblical support in other Biblical passages?  (I believe that it does.)

 

b.  Verse 10 indicates that this Wicked One in his coming with such "lying wonders" shall also come "with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish," and that he shall be able so to work such deception in them "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."  Does this element of the passage have Biblical support in other Biblical passages?  (I believe that it does.)

 

c.  Verse 11 indicates that the Lord our God shall send a "strong delusion" into the hearts of these unbelievers, such that "they should believe a lie" [very possibly the deceiving lie of that Wicked One].  Does this element of the passage have Biblical support in other Biblical passages?  (I myself am not aware of any other passage that speaks concerning our Lord God sending such a strong delusion.)

 

d.  Verse 12 indicates that the Lord our God sends this "strong delusion" into the hearts of these unbelievers "who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" specifically in order that "they all might be damned."  Does this element of the passage have Biblical support in other Biblical passages?  (Since I myself am not aware of any passage that confirms our Lord's work in sending such a "strong delusion," I also would not be able to present any passage that might confirm our Lord's purpose in sending that "strong delusion."  On the other hand, I do believe that I can present a supporting passage which indicates that every individual who is deceived by the Wicked One, the Antichrist, into taking his number and worshipping him shall indeed be damned under God's wrath in the lake of fire for eternity.)

 

2.  On the ground of my presentation in point #1, it would appear to me that the only elements that do not possess Biblical support from other Biblical passages are those concerning God's own work of sending "strong delusion" and concerning His divine purpose in doing so - so that all upon whom He sends it shall be damned.  I must ask you to consider this question -- Since this is the only passage that indicates such, do you question whether God will actually send this "strong delusion;" and do you question whether His purpose in sending it will be for the damnation of those upon whom He sends it?

 

3.  The only other element of the passage that I can see would concern the specific definition of those upon the Lord our God will send this "strong delusion."  Again, since I myself am not aware of any other passage that confirms our Lord's work in sending such a "strong delusion," I also would not be able to present any other passage that might define those upon whom He sends that "strong delusion."  Indeed, it appears to me from this singular passage that the definition of this group upon whom our Lord shall send this "strong delusion" is bound completely in the meaning of the words "received" and "believed;" for they are herein defined primarily as those who "received not/believed not."

[DaveW]

My purpose in the original question was to establish if it is actually biblical for the oft used position of "if you don't get saved before the rapture then you can't get saved after".

This phrase - or something like this - is repeated often. (I understand your timing point too).

It is this teaching that I am questioning.
The passage does indeed talk of a strong delusion and I have no prOBlem with that at all, but I don't necessarily read it as an absolute with no hope for them.

I do thank you for your responses and I will take the time to carefully read and examine your points.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

My purpose above (and I pray that it was not too much) was to provide you with thoughtful points for your consideration.  It appears that I have accomplished this.

 

Now, since I do not agree with the commonly presented "timing" for the application of this passage, I myself would also not agree with the commonly presented position -- "If you do not get saved before the rapture, then you cannot get saved thereafter."  (Although most of the time I have heard that position presented in a modified form, that is -- if you heard a clear presentation of the gospel and willfully rejected it, and thus did not get saved before the rapture, then you cannot get saved thereafter.)

 

Rather, I myself would hold to the position that if you do not get saved by the middle point of the Tribulation Period, then you cannot get saved thereafter.

 

 

Thank you for receiving my postings with a good spirit.

[Donald]

Can you clarify this post Donald? It looks and smells of TULIPs at first and second glance.

 

The Lord has spread His Gospel, His Word and His Spirit over all the world so that they are without excuse who reject it. Don't you agree?

 

Hello wretched

I did not mean for my post to point to Calvinism at all; I am not a Calvinist, but a Biblicist.

You asked...
“The Lord has spread His Gospel, His Word and His Spirit over all the world so that they are without excuse who reject it. Don't you agree?”

Of course.
 

[No Nicolaitans]

I believe the verses are definitive in the message they relay. "They" refuse the truth; therefore, God refuses "them"...

 

Different context; however, Romans 1:18-32 does give some insight into how God also gave others over to be damned because they refused to believe and accept the truth.

[Jim_Alaska]

I'm having a hard time grasping this concept. Especially the part about the rapture. Please understand that this is something I have never heard of before.

 

The part about not being able to be saved after the rapture has me especially confused. Why would the rapture have anything to do with whether or not a person can be saved? Anyone have scripture that would clarify this idea?

 

Pastor Scott said this: "if you heard a clear presentation of the gospel and willfully rejected it, and thus did not get saved before the rapture, then you cannot get saved thereafter." He said he didn't believe this, but the very idea is what I am confused about. To me this would be like saying that once you hear a clear presentation of the Gospel at any time and you reject it, you cannot be saved. I find no Scriptural prescedent for this.

 

I do understand the part about some being given a strong delusion, but have always thought of this as pertaining to those who have heard the truth and refused it with finality, therefore God sends strong delusion so that they are confirmed in their unbelief.

[No Nicolaitans]

Well, it all has to do with the timing of revealing the Antichrist for who he really is...

1. When the Antichrist is revealed as "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8), it is after he has proclaimed himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).
2. He is empowered by Satan with powers, signs, and lying wonders...which he uses to deceive those who perish (2 Thessalonians 2:9-10). 
3. Why are they deceived by the Antichrist, and why will they perish? Because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
4. Since they refused salvation, God sends them strong delusion to believe a lie. (2 Thessalonians 2:11).
5. Why does God send them strong delusion so that they will be damned and perish? Because they didn't believe the truth (rejected salvation) and had pleasure in unrighteousness (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

After the Antichrist is revealed as "the man of sin"-"the son of perdition"-"that Wicked", he will deceive the poor souls (who have rejected God's truth) with his powers, signs, and wonders. He will have proclaimed himself to be God, and I believe the powers, signs, and wonders will give that proclamation credence with those who have rejected God's truth (salvation), and they will believe the lie that he is God (?).

 

As it is in man's nature to worship, they will then worship the Antichrist...accepting his mark...sealing their doom and fate.

 

That's how I see it...not saying that I'm right, though I believe I am.