Questions For Ifb On Several Issues

[evangelist6589]

Calvinism

 

Everyone in my church is against Calvinism, yet I have to date never met a person whom has actually READ or studied the matter in depth. Calvinism is rejected and sadly mislabeled with the unbiblical Hyper Calvinism. Can the IFB ever hear the arguments from those that do not agree? I mean I have plenty of non Cal 4-pt Arminian books in my library and even 2 books defending non Cal theology. Is this the common pattern among IFB? Just an anti-intellectual attitude towards things they do not agree with? The church I spent many years in before I got married in another state was a IFB Reformed Baptist church and the pastor loved books and loved to read. He knew non Cal theology in and out.

 

Bible Translations

 

What do IFB think of the ESV? 

 

Music

 

Do IFB in general think only classical hymns style worship is the only way to do worship? If so why? I am against Rock N Roll concert type churches, but some churches have a Godly style of worship that is not IFB like, nor neither Rock N Roll concert like. 

[MatthewDiscipleOfGod]

I don't speak for all IFBers but here are some quick replies because I need to get to church.

 

Calvinism: I'm a no point Calvinist and I'm not an Arminianist either. 

 

ESV: The ESV is missing several verses of scripture and changes the meaning of many others.

 

CCM: CCM music appeals to the flesh, often has bad or weak theology and often the performers yoke with those that have terrible theology or are not even saved (Catholics).

[No Nicolaitans]

This IFB believes that Calvinism, in any form, is unbiblical. This IFB also wonders why you continue to promote Calvinism on a non-Calvinistic site.

 

This IFB would tell you that the ESV is translated from corrupt Vatican manuscripts and is therefore...corrupt.

 

This IFB would tell you that music is too broad to cover in a blanket statement. If the instruments take priority over the words (which should be biblical), it's wrong (unless it's an instrumental). If the instruments play music that appeals to the flesh, it's wrong. If the vocals are performed in a way that brings attention to the singer rather than the Lord, it's wrong.

[evangelist6589]

I don't speak for all IFBers but here are some quick replies because I need to get to church.

 

Calvinism: I'm a no point Calvinist and I'm not an Arminianist either. 

 

ESV: The ESV is missing several verses of scripture and changes the meaning of many others.

 

CCM: CCM music appeals to the flesh, often has bad or weak theology and often the performers yoke with those that have terrible theology or are not even saved (Catholics).

 

But the churches I speak of are not CCM nor are IFB music style based. Check out Sovereign Grace ministries. 

[evangelist6589]

This IFB believes that Calvinism, in any form, is unbiblical. This IFB also wonders why you continue to promote Calvinism on a non-Calvinistic site.

 

This IFB would tell you that the ESV is translated from corrupt Vatican manuscripts and is therefore...corrupt.

 

This IFB would tell you that music is too broad to cover in a blanket statement. If the instruments take priority over the words (which should be biblical), it's wrong (unless it's an instrumental). If the instruments play music that appeals to the flesh, it's wrong. If the vocals are performed in a way that brings attention to the singer rather than the Lord, it's wrong.

 

This Christian asked the questions and wondered why every IFB he has met has been intellectually dishonest and in doing so has born false witness which is a violation of the 10 commandments. God does not like lying and those that claim that Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism are one and the same and continues to promote that lie and refuses to read books to better understand things is a liar and a false accuser.

 

Its one thing to make a rational argument against Calvinism with sound reasoning and after one reads a good book and compares all the scriptures that the Calvinist uses. Its quite another however to lie and bear false witness. So the only arguments I will accept must be based on the scripture and done honestly. Perhaps some of the arguments of Calvinism are incorrect. Believe me sometimes I do question some of its doctrines.

[John81]

This Christian asked the questions and wondered why every IFB he has met has been intellectually dishonest and in doing so has born false witness which is a violation of the 10 commandments. God does not like lying and those that claim that Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism are one and the same and continues to promote that lie and refuses to read books to better understand things is a liar and a false accuser.

 

Its one thing to make a rational argument against Calvinism with sound reasoning and after one reads a good book and compares all the scriptures that the Calvinist uses. Its quite another however to lie and bear false witness. So the only arguments I will accept must be based on the scripture and done honestly. Perhaps some of the arguments of Calvinism are incorrect. Believe me sometimes I do question some of its doctrines.

While it's true some IFB folk will make fleshly attacks against Calvinism, it's also true there are many IFBs who will present a reasoned refutation as to why they disagree with Calvinism. Whether one chooses to accept their reasoning or not, there have been some IFB here on OB who have posted some very well thought out, not flesh driven, refutations of Calvinism.

 

At the same time, I could point out that most Calvinists I've encountered online get very emotional over the issue as well. It's only a few who actually put forth serious posts to support their Calvinist position.

 

With regards to the music issue, as mentioned above, that's a very broad topic and simple blanket statements are meaningless. It would help if you provided an example of the music you are referring to.

 

It would also be helpful that, if you have questions, you asked them without what appears to be jabs at those you are asking from.

[Alimantado]

John E, you forgot to ask whether it's ok to drink alcohol, IFB views on tithing, and whether it's ok for women to wear pants.

[Genevanpreacher]

Maybe if we had a discussion per doctrine of Calvinism, rather than 'violent' rantings blanketing the subject of Calvinism...from both sides mind you.

I haven't been in one such discussion. And it might help those guests that read our posts and do not choose to get involved to see the truth from either side.

[John81]

Maybe if we had a discussion per doctrine of Calvinism, rather than 'violent' rantings blanketing the subject of Calvinism...from both sides mind you.

I haven't been in one such discussion. And it might help those guests that read our posts and do not choose to get involved to see the truth from either side.

While a civil discussion could possibly benefit some, it's unlikely to occur here.

[Alimantado]

Maybe if we had a discussion per doctrine of Calvinism, rather than 'violent' rantings blanketing the subject of Calvinism...from both sides mind you.

I haven't been in one such discussion. And it might help those guests that read our posts and do not choose to get involved to see the truth from either side.

 

Add it to the >list, GP.

[Genevanpreacher]

You know that was started back in June? I don't know why it has taken so long, but it would be nice to start.

I know people are busy, I am not trying to seem unkind at all. I just wonder how come, nicely.

Any help mods?

[Alimantado]

I hear you, GP. Mods have said as recently as last month that mods/admin still haven't had the time to set it up, though.

[Ukulelemike]

This mod doesn't have the know-how, so I'm off da hook.

 

   In the time I have been here, there have been many discussions on reformed theology, on both sides, ad while it often devolves into fighting and anger, it is usually because sound biblical reasoning is dismissed off-hand for another's views, or a favorite author's arguments are placed above scripture.

 

I don't need to read Calvin's books, or the writings of Arminus to have a good enough understanding of 'Calvinism' or 'Arminianism", to declare it unbiblical. I invite those whould revisit the subject seek back into the archives and go over the various arguments that have been made there.

 

By the way, it would not be reasonable to insist one cannot understand what it is to be IFB unless they read the writings of John R. Rice or David Cloud-you want to understand it? Read the Bible.

[Genevanpreacher]

Maybe I should rethink my former desire to learn about defending the truth against Calvinism.

I seem to want to know, yet there is so many other things to focus on that are already true.

 

I have no desire for anyone clarifying Calvinism to me.

[Alimantado]

My own view, and I made it in that other thread too, is that rather than moving the debates to a debate section, it might be worth at least for a month or two having a moratorium on debates on OB. It used to be primarily a fellowship site, and now it is primarily a place for folk to debate doctrine. Perhaps a moratorium would swing the board back by making it more attractive to lurkers and new people who just want to fellowship. Or maybe it would kill it, in which case it would only prove that OB was no longer viable as a fellowship site. I get involved in these debates as much as the next person, but I'd welcome being forced to focus on the prayer and fellowship threads more, or what's left of them. I remember only a few years ago there would be 20 or so regular contributors posting on all sorts of topics, and the debating was barely noticeable. Or maybe I'm misremembering it...