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Way Of Life - Millennial Glory And The Final Rebellion


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As to the timing and the word "shortly" - I said to a friend the other day that I would be at church shortly. How long do you think I meant?
I was there inside an hour. Do you suggest that these things all happened within an hour, for that is a legitimate meaning for shortly.
It is not a defined time period it is a relative one.

In the context, "shortly" & "at hand" mean the very near future - within a year or so, NOT 2000 years hence. How could John's actual readers prepare for future dispensations far beyond their time on earth?

 

That does not stop us reading & taking action in our day - as Jesus said to all - "Watch & Pray!" We are living in a troubled world. The LORD's response to Habakkuk's watchful prayer when facing the destruction of his homeland still stands for us - "The just shall live by faith."

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Could you show me how "within a year or so" is defined in that passage?
How do you know that "within a year or so" is the right length of time?

My daughter would not think "within a year or so" is "shortly".

In fact "shortly" can not be defined as a definite period of time as you have done.
You picked that definition BECAUSE IT SUITS YOUR TIME LINE and for no other reason.

And you are the one who related the earthquake and darkness of the cross to those mentioned in Revelation, not me. And as such YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG, for the events I was speaking of in Revelation were future to John. It COULD NOT POSSIBLY include the events of the cross, for they were past for John.

If you would only read what is actually written rather than what you want it to say, you would have far more success.

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The above quote from Jude 1:3-4 needs to be used graciously, yet firmly by all of us where appropriate. It is NOT to be used aggressively in a discussion between brethren. I'll reply within Dave's post. To reduce the length, I will give references rather than full quotations.
Jude is telling us to earnestly contend, because we dont know who the false brethren are. Again, what you said here sounds nice, but it isn't Scriptural.
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While "shortly" doesn't come with a pre-set time attached to it, most often the term "shortly" is considered to mean relatively soon. Again, an imprecise time period, but expected to be in the very near future.

 

If I tell my wife I'll be back shortly, she's expecting I'm not going to be gone long. If I'm gone longer than a short time, she'll let me know about it!

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While "shortly" doesn't come with a pre-set time attached to it, most often the term "shortly" is considered to mean relatively soon. Again, an imprecise time period, but expected to be in the very near future.

If I tell my wife I'll be back shortly, she's expecting I'm not going to be gone long. If I'm gone longer than a short time, she'll let me know about it!


I would agree in general John, but he has assigned a time based on nothing but his own preconception.
And then he builds a doctrine on it.
Dangerous stuff......
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I wasn't arguing for his position, and I agreed in my post there is no set time to "shortly", only discussing the aspect of what "shortly" typically means.

 

First we need to come to a general understanding as to what "shortly" means, and then see how that applies. Just what all does "shortly" refer to? What aspects does it perhaps not refer to? How does our definition of "shortly" impact our interpretation of the rest?

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In 2pet 3, Peter is dealing with this very subject, the coming of the day of the Lord, and people lamenting its coming, or rather, its lack of coming, and it is in this context that peter writes the famous phrase, "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (Vs. 8).  

 

So in context, just HOW LONG is 'shortly" or 'At Hand" when Peter tells us that a day is as a thousand years and a thousnd years as a day?  Indeed, to God, who is outside of time and not subject to its constraints, but two days, according to Peter, have passed.

 

God gave the promise of the coming Messiah in Genesis 3, and while it is up to argument, many believe that when Seth was born, Eve believed that he was the fulfillment of that prophecy-wh would have thought it would take 4,000 years, (of our time) for the Lord to bring that promise to fulfillment? BUt to Him, "Hey, I only took four days!" 

 

The fulfillment of the prophecy of the destruction of Tyre took at least two separate events, over more than 300 years, to be completed.

 

So I suggest we stop trying to place God in our time boxes-He never gave a time, just 'shortly' and 'at hand'. But its HIS hand and HIS shortly, not ours.

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That's the point Mike. How we decide to define "shortly" makes a big difference in how we view that passage, and more. Just what does the "shortly" apply to? That's also a factor. Is there a limited use to that or does it encompass the whole?

 

As to the time of the Lord's return, Scripture is very clear that we don't and can't know. We are called to be prepared at all times because we don't know when He will return.

 

That raises a prOBlem with those who continually declare they KNOW the time is very near fro a pre-trib rapture. If it were possible to even know we are very near to Christ returning, that in itself give many reason to think they could kind of coast until they see all these signs so many pre-trib rapture folks continually point to.

 

That could, and often does, open up even more interpretative considerations as to whether or not there are "stages" to the return of Christ, and if so just when one or more raptures will take place, or is His return one event...

 

So many things fit into the overall picture, and not so easily, which is why there are so many views in the area of the end times.

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The great first C prophetic event after the Gospel events & the formation of the church comprising Jew & Gentile was the destruction - within a generation of Jesus' rejection. The sign of Jonah was his deliverance from the whale after which he preached "yet 40 days." God is gracious & he allowed "this generation" their lifetime to repent. A generation is about 40 years (see Heb. 3) and that 40 years was fast running out. This generation was fast dying out. Rev. 11 tells us the temple was still standing.

 

The Rev. time indicator is 3 1/2 years, which was roughly the time between the Christians fleeing the city & its destruction, so assuming John was given his visions in the 60s, a year or so is reasonable for the readers to take action.

 

In 2pet 3, Peter is dealing with this very subject, the coming of the day of the Lord, and people lamenting its coming, or rather, its lack of coming, and it is in this context that peter writes the famous phrase, "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (Vs. 8).  

 

So in context, just HOW LONG is 'shortly" or 'At Hand" when Peter tells us that a day is as a thousand years and a thousnd years as a day?  Indeed, to God, who is outside of time and not subject to its constraints, but two days, according to Peter, have passed.

 

God gave the promise of the coming Messiah in Genesis 3, and while it is up to argument, many believe that when Seth was born, Eve believed that he was the fulfillment of that prophecy-wh would have thought it would take 4,000 years, (of our time) for the Lord to bring that promise to fulfillment? BUt to Him, "Hey, I only took four days!" 

 

The fulfillment of the prophecy of the destruction of Tyre took at least two separate events, over more than 300 years, to be completed.

 

So I suggest we stop trying to place God in our time boxes-He never gave a time, just 'shortly' and 'at hand'. But its HIS hand and HIS shortly, not ours.

God is a God of eternity, & his times are not ours, BUT when he reveals time to us by his prophets, he keeps to his revealed timetable. The Amorites were given 4 generations (400 years) - Gen. 15. Noah wasn't surprised by the flood coming before he had cut down any trees - "Sorry, Noah, it's MY timescale, not yours."

 

The 70 years of exile were 70 years, & the 70 weeks (of years) were 490 years. Jesus rose from the dead the third day - he's not still in the tomb for a further 1,000 years.

 

Peter was also writing before the destruction, and it seems the unbelieving Jews were mocking because Jesus' coming for their judgement had not occurred. Hebrews deals with the same prOBlem.

 

Mark 12:. 6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying , They will reverence my son. 7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come , let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours. 8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. 9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do ? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. 10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: 11 This was the Lord's doing , and it is marvellous in our eyes? 12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way .

 

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers , A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass , that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken , have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed . 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

1 Thes. 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved , to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

 

Heb. 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith , To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said , They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed , brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily , while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying , Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep , all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of , that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished : 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store , reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish , but that all should come to repentance.

We take Peter's prophecy as the yet future second coming, but vs 3-4 deal with the mockers of his time who were saying that Jesus' coming had not occurred - he could not keep his promise/warning. "Carry on folks - we can relax in our sin. Rejecting Jesus has no consequences!" BUT the flood took 120 years before it fell, & fall it did. God is gracious & longsuffering, but the judgement of that generation is recorded history, and came in the declared timescale.

 

Peter goes on to speak of Jesus final coming, which all of us must be ready for. That timescale is unrevealed & unknowable by man, except that it is an indefinite 1,000 years. (Rev. 20)

 

Like Peter, John in Revelation goes beyond the AD 70 destruction. The great tribulation of Israel did not end the persecution of believers. Down the ages believers face all sorts of hostility. We can face them with a confidence that God's prophecies will come true. The prophecy of the destruction included the warning signs that would tell the believers when to leave the city. They did & fled to safety.

 

We have the prophecy of the second coming, resurrection & glory in the NH&NE. His coming for judgement of those who rejected him in AD 70 was veiled by clouds. His final coming will not be veiled.

 

1 Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say , Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child ; and they shall not escape .

 

2 Thes. 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

 

Whether you agree with me or not, take this warning & encouragement from Peter:

 

2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved , what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved , and the elements shall melt with fervent heat ? 13 Nevertheless we , according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

 

One final point:

2 cor. 6:2 .... behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

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Love the fact that the thousand years is an indeterminate time, but shortly means a year and half.

And note that you ASSUME John wrote in the 60's.
Your assumption based on nothing but your own bias.

And the 70 weeks have been discussed at length and you read so much into that and rearrange the timing to suit your self.

Yeah, I don't agree with your eschatology, and I recognize that what you teach is based on your ideas applied wrongly to Scriptures.

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That's basically the way prophesy is dealt with. We develop or learn ways of viewing what we read and that colors the entirety of our conclusions.

 

Do time references always have a literal, definable set or do some mean something other than what a more general and literal reading would indicate? Does "shortly" mean in a short time or in this case does it mean an indeterminate time period that could extend to thousands of years? How about the thousand years? Is this a specific, literal thousand years or a case where that term simply means a long period of time? Do 70 weeks of years actually mean 70 weeks of years or does it refer to 69 weeks of years followed by an indeterminately long weeks of years until finally one of those weeks can be said to be the 70th? Does our view of all these flow consistently from one to the other or do we have different takes on one than another or each? How we interpret this determines the course of the rest of our interpretation of prophecy.

 

Most admit we don't have set dates for all the books of the Bible. Some can be more clearly timed than others, and for those which have no clear time, clues are looked at to come up with a guess. As with all matters using clues, including law enforcement, the clues themselves are often open to speculation and various interpretations. This leaves us with circumstantial evidence to base our decision upon and we can't make a 100% statement based upon circumstantial evidence alone. This leaves us with the prOBlem of some seeing the circumstantial evidence pointing to one thing (or date) and others to another. Where one lands on this will determine how they view the prophesy in question.

 

We have two centuries of varying views on several points of these matters. We also have two centuries of seeing one view dominate and then fall from favor to be replaced by another until that falls from favor and another view takes center stage until...

 

We should be careful in these matters, especially in how we relate to our brothers/sisters in Christ concerning such. A valuable lesson should be learned from those men of Jesus days on on earth who knew the Scripture front to back and were, in their own minds, 100% certain they understood the prophecy of the coming of Christ but were found to be wrong. Even when faced with the evidence right before them, they failed to see past their already determined views to the fact they had been mistaken.

 

Search the Scriptures and hold to what you believe the Holy Ghost leads you to, but leave room for instruction and make room for love of the brethren whether they agree or disagree with our take on the matter.

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Could you show me how "within a year or so" is defined in that passage?
How do you know that "within a year or so" is the right length of time?

My daughter would not think "within a year or so" is "shortly".

"Shortly" is given its approximate duration by the context - in Revelation by the fact that the visions are given while the temple is still standing. (Rev. 11)

 

Tell your 9-y-o daughter that dinner will be on the table shortly, & she knows its a few minutes. Tell her that she will shortly hit puberty & it's an indefinite year or so. It will not be delayed 2,000 years or even 10 years & still be "shortly."

 

Love the fact that the thousand years is an indeterminate time, but shortly means a year and half.

And note that you ASSUME John wrote in the 60's.
Your assumption based on nothing but your own bias.

And the 70 weeks have been discussed at length and you read so much into that and rearrange the timing to suit your self.

Yeah, I don't agree with your eschatology, and I recognize that what you teach is based on your ideas applied wrongly to Scriptures.

Peter, speaking of the coming of Christ, said the time was indefinite - a day is like a thousand years in God's time scale. The destruction was timed to a generation - 40 years as Hebrews affirms. The date of Jesus coming - the duration of the present Gospel age of grace - was not hinted at in the Apostolic teaching until Rev. 20. And if Jesus meant an exact 1,000 years he would have revealed something we should not know.  In any case it wasn't! He hasn't come yet.

 

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away : but my words shall not pass away . 32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33 Take ye heed , watch and pray : for ye know not when the time is . 34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch . 35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh , at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping . 37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch .

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