Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

Prophecy And Sign Gifts.


Jordan Kurecki

Recommended Posts

  • Members

I have been taught that the gift of prophecy has ceased and is no longer.

 

Here is the most popular passage I've seen used to teach that the sign gifts are gone today:

 

1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 
1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 
1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 
 
I have a few concerns with using this passage:
 
1. People say when that which is perfect is come, that they are referring to the bible, since it is complete, so that the things in part, prophecies and tongues and knowledge shall cease. my question is how can we conclusively say that the thing which is perfect is the word of God, how do we not know that it isn't the New Heaven and Jerusalem coming to earth in Eternity future? or how do we know it's not speaking of the Kingdom of God? also do we not still have knowledge today? so why is knowledge still here but the sign gifts are not?
What is the basis for this teaching that the sign gifts have ended?
 

 

2. How can people say this, and then teach that in the end times there are going to be the two prophets in the end times described in the book of revelation?

 

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 
Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 
Rev 11:5  And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 
Rev 11:6  These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 
Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 
Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 
Rev 11:9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 
Rev 11:10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 
 
 
 
 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

 

I have been taught that the gift of prophecy has ceased and is no longer.

 

Here is the most popular passage I've seen used to teach that the sign gifts are gone today:

 

1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 
1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 
1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 
 
I have a few concerns with using this passage:
 
1. People say when that which is perfect is come, that they are referring to the bible, since it is complete, so that the things in part, prophecies and tongues and knowledge shall cease. my question is how can we conclusively say that the thing which is perfect is the word of God, how do we not know that it isn't the New Heaven and Jerusalem coming to earth in Eternity future? or how do we know it's not speaking of the Kingdom of God? also do we not still have knowledge today? so why is knowledge still here but the sign gifts are not?
What is the basis for this teaching that the sign gifts have ended?
 

 

2. How can people say this, and then teach that in the end times there are going to be the two prophets in the end times described in the book of revelation?

 

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 
Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 
Rev 11:5  And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 
Rev 11:6  These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 
Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 
Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 
Rev 11:9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 
Rev 11:10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 

 

I believe it refers to the completion of the canon of scripture primarily because prophecy and tongues and divinely-received knowledge were given because there was no complete mind of God, as it were, available for man yet. These gifts were given to give the mind of God to man-but with the scripture complete, they are no longer necessary.

 

As for revelation, this is a particular situation, when more than likely the word of God will not be available as it is now. So the Lord will specially empower those he chooses to do the jOB in a miraculous manner again. as well as to show the difference between the power of God and the power of satan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Right...it's referring to the word of knowledge...one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It's not talking about knowledge in general.

 

1 Corinthians 12:8
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

 

Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul made it clear that the word of knowledge had to do with giving out the word of God...

 

1 Corinthians 14:6
Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

 

He also included tongues and prophesying in that verse...the same 3 elements mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13:8-9. All had to do with revealing God's word. We now have God's complete word; therefore, they are no longer needed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jordan, I've often wondered about your 

 

 

I have been taught that the gift of prophecy has ceased and is no longer.

 

Here is the most popular passage I've seen used to teach that the sign gifts are gone today:

 

1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 
1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 
1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 
 
I have a few concerns with using this passage: 

Jordan, I had concerns too; if that which is perfect is not referenced by name; that name being Jesus Christ. He is the “I am one that bear witness of myself,” John 8:18 Jesus is the completed verbal revelation of God to man, there is no more of God to be revealed until we are in His presence. God's words were given verbally to us and recorded for us to know Him. There will be many who come to say they give MORE prophecy, tongues, knowledge and wisdom; however, if they go beyond providing worldly knowledge and attempt to give us MORE of God then reserve the right to be skeptical and reject them. 

 

When the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory as the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth; what further need is there beyond recording His word and those given by Him to His Apostles to share in the Churches establishment?

 

Some might ask, but why not more? Because, "The just shall live by faith."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Right...it's referring to the word of knowledge...one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It's not talking about knowledge in general.

1 Corinthians 12:8
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul made it clear that the word of knowledge had to do with giving out the word of God...

1 Corinthians 14:6
Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

He also included tongues and prophesying in that verse...the same 3 elements mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13:8-9. All had to do with revealing God's word. We now have God's complete word; therefore, they are no longer needed.


Name one member of the church at Corinth, whose prophecy became part of our Canon .

1Co 14:1
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1Co 14:3-5
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied:for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1Co 14:22
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.


1Co 14:24
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

1Co 14:29-32
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

1Co 14:37-40
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

This chapter is very OBviously referring to public speaking in the assembly, and not the revelation of the Canon.

YE MAY ALL PROPHESY!!!

Stop imposing your own interpretation over God's command..
Unless, you are not spiritual...


Anishinaabe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Stop imposing your own interpretation over God's command..
Unless, you are not spiritual...


Anishinaabe

 

Gee whiz...don't have a nervous jerk-down.

 

Was the gift of prophecy the gift of public speaking?

 

From 1 Corinthians 12 through 14, the entire context of those chapters deals with spiritual gifts. The first verse of chapter 12 makes this clear...of which, prophecy is one of the gifts of the Spirit.

 

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

 

Is the Bible speaking of public speaking here?

 

1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

 

Did Paul temporarily have amnesia about what he said at the beginning of this next verse...so he had to repeat himself?

 

1 Corinthians 14:6
Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you1 either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying2, or by doctrine?

 

1 I shall speak to you - there's public speaking.

or by prophesying - there's prophecy.

 

...or did the Holy Spirit inspire Paul to write what you imply should be interpreted as...

 

Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying public speaking, or by doctrine?

 

I shall speak to you by public speaking... :scratchchin:

 

I shall speak to you (the church at Corinth) by public speaking... :scratchchin:

 

I shall speak to you (the church at Corinth) THE GROUP by public speaking... :scratchchin:

 

So Paul was just repeating himself? It's already determined that "I shall speak" will be the public speaking...and the public speaking included "prophesying".

 

So...I don't see that I've imposed my own interpretation. As to whether I'm spiritual...are you?

 

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

 

Your final words to me weren't exactly meek... :nuts:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Name one member of the church at Corinth, whose prophecy became part of our Canon .

 

Let's not forget that there are references in the Bible to prophets, but their prophecies (whatever they were) also aren't part of scripture...1 Samuel 10 for example.

 

I'm not denying that "prophesying" can be publicly delivering the word of God; however, I think there's a clear distinction in the verses that I pointed to that separates public speaking from actual prophesying...but that's me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...