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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
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      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

Adrian Rogers - Sermon - Don't Be A Disgrace To Grace

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Listen here.

 

I listened to it several times after I heard it on Radio, & discussed it with the Premier Christian Radio presenters, who in a "Right to reply" feed-back programme agreed with my criticism. I've now found it & skipped through it. I shall listen again.

 

The sermon is a strong exhortation to godly living (first 20 minutes);

Lot as an example of becoming a disgrace to grace (next 20 minutes);

And a final Gospel invitation/prayer, with an assurance that if you say the prayer sincerely you are eternally saved - by grace, not works, with the implication (from Lot) that one can live a rotten lifestyle & still be saved. But DON'T be a disgrace to grace.

 

My concern is that he overplays Lot's spiritual decline;

and that saying the "salvation prayer" falls far short of Biblical salvation - that demands repentance resulting in godly living.

 

I NOT arguing "calvinism" nor teaching loss of salvation.

 

 

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Listen here.

 

I listened to it several times after I heard it on Radio, & discussed it with the Premier Christian Radio presenters, who in a "Right to reply" feed-back programme agreed with my criticism. I've now found it & skipped through it. I shall listen again.

 

The sermon is a strong exhortation to godly living (first 20 minutes);

Lot as an example of becoming a disgrace to grace (next 20 minutes);

And a final Gospel invitation/prayer, with an assurance that if you say the prayer sincerely you are eternally saved - by grace, not works, with the implication (from Lot) that one can live a rotten lifestyle & still be saved. But DON'T be a disgrace to grace.

 

My concern is that he overplays Lot's spiritual decline;

and that saying the "salvation prayer" falls far short of Biblical salvation - that demands repentance resulting in godly living.

 

I NOT arguing "calvinism" nor teaching loss of salvation.

 

 

I did not listen to the sermon - be that as it may, I have always enjoyed Adrian Rogers and his fine insightful outlines -

So I am confused what you are compalining about,

 

1. Adrain shouldn´t exhort pople to godly living?

2. Adrian shouldn´t have used Lot as an example of abusing the grace of God?

3. A preacher pleading with sinners to get saved??

 

Wow, what a cad that Adrian Rogers was!!

 

I think you´re sort of out in the weeds complaining about a sermon from a man who has a solid testimony of being a saved man, a man used of the Lord.

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I did not listen to the sermon - be that as it may, I have always enjoyed Adrian Rogers and his fine insightful outlines -
So I am confused what you are compalining about,
 
1. Adrain shouldn´t exhort pople to godly living?
2. Adrian shouldn´t have used Lot as an example of abusing the grace of God?
3. A preacher pleading with sinners to get saved??
 
Wow, what a cad that Adrian Rogers was!!
 
I think you´re sort of out in the weeds complaining about a sermon from a man who has a solid testimony of being a saved man, a man used of the Lord.

I am not attacking AR but questioning aspects of the message.

Apart from your typo, I agree with the thrust of the sermon - godly living.

Lot is cited by Peter as a positive example of the LORD's protection in his stand against the disgusting wickedness around him. Lot was at the gate to welcome and protect the visitors, NOT as a city representative. David would be a better example of a disgrace to grace.

And assuring a "salvation prayer" convert of eternal security goes against Jesus' parable of the sower.

A question we need to ask is, "in what aspects of my life am I a disgrace to grace? "
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That "sinners prayer" thing can be very dangerous; as can telling someone "if they really believe", because many folks don't grasp the true, biblical meaning of that.

 

This is part of the reason Scripture puts so much emphasis upon making sure we realize we are sinners in need of saving, and of the importance of repentance in salvation.

 

There are many out there today who have recited a sinners prayer, thinking they really believe they want to go to heaven when they die, and are yet as lost (perhaps moreso) as before theys said the prayer.

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While Adrian did speak out what some would call "The Sinner's Prayer", he told people if they prayed that prayer and really meant it they were saved.  Nothing wrong with that at all.

 

But no-one's going to up and say "so long as you pray this and not really mean it you will be saved" are they? I listened to that bit of the sermon and didn't spot that three-word caveat. In fact, if those three words weren't included the natural assumption would still be that you were to mean it.

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That "sinners prayer" thing can be very dangerous; as can telling someone "if they really believe", because many folks don't grasp the true, biblical meaning of that.

 

This is part of the reason Scripture puts so much emphasis upon making sure we realize we are sinners in need of saving, and of the importance of repentance in salvation.

 

There are many out there today who have recited a sinners prayer, thinking they really believe they want to go to heaven when they die, and are yet as lost (perhaps moreso) as before theys said the prayer.

It is good to leave out a prayer when evangelizing and rather tell people they must repent and trust in Jesus alone, as a prayer may give people false assurance. I don't use Gospel tracts that have a prayer on them as I am uncomfortable with them. When I was in the false theology of Calvinism, I was in the Evangelism Explosion ministry, and was very uneasy with the mass professions people claimed to make by leading people in prayer.

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This is actually heartstrings' post

Alimantado, on 27 Aug 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:snapback.png

Hi Heartstrings

 

In the post above, you acuse Covenanter of falsely claiming that Adrian Rogers included, in Covenanter's words, a "salvation prayer" in his 'Disgrace to Grace' sermon. You say that "all (you) found" when you listened to a sermon of the same name was some other contents, the OBvious implication being that there was no reference to a salvation/sinner's prayer in Rogers' sermon at all.

 

Now that Covenanter has indeed posted it up and even SFIC (who earlier 'liked' your post) has acknowledged that there is indeed reference to something like a salvation/sinner's prayer at the end of the sermon (though SFIC says he thinks it isn't actually one), do you still want to claim that the sermon contains no such thing?

 

I've now listened to that section (and I'm going to listen to the rest because it sounds like a good sermon--haven't heard of Adrian Rogers before) and I can certainly see which bit Covenanter was talking about.

Brother Alimantado;

I don't recall disputing that there was "no salvation prayer". Perhaps you could point that out? The issue I had with Covenanter was this part...
 

Quote

A dangerous argument for eternal security was put forward by the late Adrian Rogers e.g. in his sermon "Lot - A disgrace to grace" in which he [Adrain Rogers] argued that if you have gone through the "salvation prayer" on the lines of: "Lord Jesus, I admit I am a sinner, & I believe you died for my sins, so I can be forgiven" then you are truly saved. You can live a filthy rotten life (like Lot), but you can't lose your salvation.

 

I tried to show Covenanter that the whole message was about living right and not being a "disgrace to grace". In the message, Adrian Rogers merely used Lot as an illustration of a "just man", a real saint of God who chose the world and thereby as a consequence lost his family. His life, testimony, and posterity were indeed wrecked because of his own decision to live for the World. But God will not allow one of His own to live a "filthy rotten life" and get away with it. 

 

May I elaborate more? The Bible speaks of others, besides Lot, who did not "persevere" in their Godly living including the man in 1 Corinthians who Paul said had "his father's wife" and was about to be turned over the Devil for the "destruction of the flesh" that the "spirit might be saved". In other words, this dude was committing a "sin unto death". God has not made us automatic "perseverers" evidenced by the man in 1 Corinthians 5: Just as surely as you have a choice to choose Eternal Life AKA Jesus Christ, you also have a choice to live for him in this life. God will not make us live for him, but He will make us wish we had....like old Brother Lot learned too late..

 

Covenanter, If you believe on Jesus in your heart, no matter what "words" you may "repeat" or come up with on your own or utter none at all, you are saved. As sure as I'm breathing that's the kind of salvation that Adrian Rogers preached. Even a person with ALS, like Steven Hawking, whose "trapped" body can do no more than twitch it's cheek, if he truly repented in his heart, turned to Jesus from sin and self, the Holy Ghost would come into that man and he could be gloriously saved...saved for eternity. Could he later sin? Yes. Because we are all still sinners, we all have "the sin that so easily besets us" and we all have the propensity to "love this present world". 

 

Listening to the sermon again.........

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And so is this...

Ok

At the 43.03 mark he says "if you will pray a prayer like that and mean it......."

 

First of all he said "prayer" and he gave the stipulation that you must "mean it".   He's not telling anyone to say certain words because he says a prayer "Like that" . He is just showing you how to come to God and he's showing you the issues to be dealt with in coming to God and I noticed he mentioned these three things... "I'm a sinner" "I'm lost" "Jesus you died to save me" Those three issues are the three that the Holy Spirit deals with the heart: sin, righteousness, and judgement.

 

Sin.......I'm a low down wicked sinner

Righteousness......God is Love and Holy and righteous and he displayed all of that in Jesus and on Calvary.

Judgement.....I'm on my way to Hell for all eternity and I deserve it.

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Romans 10
 9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I know it doesn't say "pray" but to whom are we supposed to make this confession?
To confess it to men won't save you.
This confession needs to be to God surely?

Does it need to be before men, so men can hear it? The Eunuch did so.... But that was telling what he already believed by then.

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One Baptist pastor put it something like this...if a person has decided to accept Christ, he's already saved and a prayer of salvation will just be a formality.

 

No doubt I didn't say that as good as he does, but looking through Scripture, looking back at my own salvation, considering the testimony of others, I do believe what he says is true.

 

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with saying a prayer. The prOBlem comes when saying a prayer is used as a formula. As it's so often presented, those who hear the call to say a sinners prayer see the recitation of the prayer as what saves them.

 

We (Christians overall) are way too lax in presenting the reality of sin, the cost of continuing in sin, the need for repentance and the cost of following Christ. We too often opt for the easy to digest, watered down presentation along the lines of asking if they want to go to heaven and when most say "yes", telling them they need to pray to receive Jesus in their hearts. There is a lot left out there.

 

I know of so many people who have said a "sinners prayer" and think that means they are going to heaven. A few who are a little more concerned often wonder if they are really going to heaven since they realize just how "bad" they are even after saying that prayer. Most often their response is to simply repeat that same "sinners prayer" many times over the course of their life to try and make sure they will get to heaven.

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Well, I am certainly not advocating the "sinner'sprayer" in the "pray after me 1,2,3" way - but you asked the question, and I gave a verse that has something of an application....... I just see the "confession" here to be a vocal prayer to the Lord. (This is meant to be friendly by the way, but I think it is not coming through that way....)

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I get your point Dave, I didn't take your post as any sort of jab or mean mine to seem as such either. Just discussing, but as we know our writing can be taken in different ways by different folks.

 

From your time here I know you understand salvation and wouldn't agree with the idea of simply telling someone to repeat a simplistic prayer, declare them to be heaven bound, and leave them.

 

As for the confession from the verse above, I've heard that related to prayer and also as mean confessing Christ publically, in the sense of how Christ said those who confess Him before men, He will confess before His Father (and those who deny Him before men, He will deny before His Father).

 

In various passages we read of those who were hearing Peter preaching and the Holy Ghost came upon them. That means they were saved. As with Cornelius, we read of him and his family being baptized right after such an occurrence.

 

I think we agree that if one is saved, their words and actions will indicate such.

 

Those (such as Charles Stanley and others) who preach that one can get saved and continue to live like the devil are not preaching from solid biblical ground.

 

So many folks I know point back to saying a "sinners prayer" or to them being baptized as their assurance of heaven. Try talking to them about Jesus, the Bible, church, the fruit of their lives, and they nearly always get defensive, declare no one can know their heart, and often point out how much better they are than certain other people. It's really sad.

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This discussion is now going the way I hoped it would. Thanks folk.

Casting my memory back 60 years ......
I was baptised as a baby and taught I was a Christian, confirmed in 1951 at 12. I went to the same school as Isaac Watts. Divinity lessons were Scriptural and included discussions. When Billy Graham came to London, the novel idea of conversion by going forward was discussed. I did not need to respond - I was already a Christian.

When BG returned I was then attending a Bible class. There were lots of campaign meetings led by BG imitators. I never went forward, but said the salvation prayer, just to make sure. I went to Wembley Stadium in a coach party to hear him. I was moved more by the Gospel singing in the coach than the preaching. But I knew I was already a Christian. BUT, no conviction of sin. No repentance.

At 18 I was praying, meditating on the Law and how well I was keeping the commandments when the Lord reminded me of the great commandments. I was convicted and saved, and baptised as a believer at a Gospel church in my first term at university.


I said the salvation prayer sincerely many times, and was sure I was saved, but until I came to repentance, I was deceiving myself.

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