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Agreement/disagreement With The Pastor

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SFIC: I have moved past eternal security and on to fellowship with other believers. If I know someone is open to learning and growing and is aware they don't understand everything, I have no prOBlem continuing fellowship with such. So, I guess I answered my own question.

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We all agree that a truly saved person cannot be lost, e.g. we are born again children of God, bought with the precious blood of Christ, and NOTHING can separate us from the love of God in Christ.

 

The prOBlem is, passages such as Heb. 6:4-6 ( & Heb. 3 & 10) appear to teach loss of salvation. I submit that the Hebrews being warned were in a specific situation - many had actually witnessed Jesus & his miracles & heard his teaching, further, they had the witness of the Apostles & their miracles in the name of Jesus. Some would have shouted "crucify him!" Some would have heard the Pentecostal outpouring, & mocked the Apostles.

Heb. 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard , lest at any time we should let them slip . 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disOBedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape , if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness , both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

Some of these would have known Peter's warning in Acts 3:22-23  quoting Deut. 18:18-19 so they are in a situation that can never arise again. They had the choice - Moses & old covenant worship, or Christ & the new covenant. Some would remember the words of Jesus spoken against their leaders & the towns where his miracles were performed.

 

In Heb. 3, they are reminded of the 40 years wandering as  a result of disOBedience. At the time of writing the 40 years allowed "this generation" is coming to end. Make your mind up to commit to Christ TODAY or perish in the prophesied destruction.

 

Your church leader has presumably misunderstood such passages as teaching loss of salvation. He may also have known folk he accepted as true believers who have turned right away. I know of some. The logic then would be - these believers have fallen away, therefore it is possible for believers to fall away. He's got a lot to learn from the Scriptures. Is a major point in his teaching? Have you been able to discuss that teaching with others in the church?

 

One last major point:

When he preaches the Gospel, how does a sinner become saved, according to his teaching?

 

 

 

 

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I cannot answer those questions yet. I have only been to the church twice. He is teaching at this time in Exodus the use and purpose of the tabernacle.

We all have a lot to learn. I am assured of that.

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Hey GS, personally, and based on the information you have given us, I would separate; but you know the situation more fully than us.
My only advice further is that if you choose to stay, keep your eyes wide open: I suspect that with this basic issue will come other issues, and some of them may be extremely subtle, but extremely important.
Dave.

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Keep the matter in much prayer and listen for the Lord's direction.

 

If you are being edified in some manner by attending that church then the Lord may want you to remain there until He lets you know of another church.

 

I've attended church where they had some things I didn't agree with but the pastor didn't preach on those matters so it was a blessing to be there as I was looking for a new church home.

 

On another occasion I had a brief period where the Lord didn't lead me to attend any of the "off" churches before He finally directed me to a new church.

 

It's so important to follow the Lord's leading in these matters.

 

As Salyan said, don't let the devil get you down. Keep drawing close to the Lord, He will draw close to you, and He will provide.

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It's prOBable that once you find a home church, and your children get older, they will understand.

 

The last time we needed to find a new church home it turned out to be much more difficult that I thought it would. I checked out churches online, we visited several churches, I spoke with pastors, and it was a long process but once we found the right church we all agreed (children included) that it was worth the time and effort.

 

You and your family are in my prayers.

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I cannot answer those questions yet. I have only been to the church twice. He is teaching at this time in Exodus the use and purpose of the tabernacle.

We all have a lot to learn. I am assured of that.

Can he teach from Exodus without relating the tabernacle to Jesus? Hebrews is very relevant.

 

Ex. 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. 9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

 

Mat. 1:22 Now all this was done , that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying , 23 Behold , a virgin shall be with child , and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is , God with us.

 

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. [The Gk word for "dwell" implies "tabernacled" among us.]

 

Heb. 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched , and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer . 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See , saith he , that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he OBtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

 

As Jesus said on the Emmaus road:

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken : 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

 

Are his sermons on line? OBviously he can't give a comprehensive doctrinal statement in every sermon, but if he does not preach the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ in every sermon, he is simply giving a Bible lecture.

 

You are clear on where you stand - listen to what others are saying - ask others about his teaching. We SHOULD discuss & apply sermons (hopefully constructively), not go away & forget them, or just add them to our Bible knowledge. Perhaps home Bible studies with others from the church would be appreciated. I'm not in favour of being subversive, but you do need a positive way forward, & if a group of members come forward, not just a newcomer, he will listen. 

 

Pray that he will recognise you as a Priscilla. Acts 18:24-26

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what am I really concerned about is my kids and going from church to church and the inconsistency that they are seeing. Even though I have tried to explain to them that mommy is trying to find a church that teaches from the Bible.

The most important thing you can do for them, in this situation, is tell them exactly why you took a stand for Christ.
They will not forget.

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:goodpost: Be as open and honest with your children as best you can for their age and ability to understand. This will serve as a valuable life lesson for them.

Unfortunately, they learn to compromise by example as well.

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Covenanter: I'm not really sure. I'm not going to find out because I'm not going back. However, I'm not breaking fellowship. I'm going to go to his wife's woman's home Bible study group on Tuesdays and she is going with me to another one I am involved with on Thursdays. I still believe they're saved but perhaps misinformed or have misinterpreted, which I believe we all do at times. I struggled with it myself for years in AOG. I have been saved for over 30 years and don't believe that during my time of doubts or questions that I was lost. I also have friends that struggle. Now I am grounded so perhaps I can be used to plant seeds.

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Covenanter: I'm not really sure. I'm not going to find out because I'm not going back. However, I'm not breaking fellowship. I'm going to go to his wife's woman's home Bible study group on Tuesdays and she is going with me to another one I am involved with on Thursdays. I still believe they're saved but perhaps misinformed or have misinterpreted, which I believe we all do at times. I struggled with it myself for years in AOG. I have been saved for over 30 years and don't believe that during my time of doubts or questions that I was lost. I also have friends that struggle. Now I am grounded so perhaps I can be used to plant seeds.

It's prOBably too early for feedback, but I am posting as a reminder of your concerns.

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A dangerous argument for eternal security was put forward by the late Adrian Rogers e.g. in his sermon "Lot - A disgrace to grace" in which he argued that if you have gone through the "salvation prayer" on the lines of: "Lord Jesus, I admit I am a sinner, & I believe you died for my sins, so I can be forgiven" then you are truly saved. You can live a filthy rotten life (like Lot), but you can't lose your salvation. 

 

Covenantor, Would you mind posting a link to that "Lot, a disgrace to grace" sermon? All I found was "Don't be a Disgrace to Grace" in which the WHOLE MESSAGE is exhorting born again Christians to live right and separate from the world and worldly lusts. The message also speaks of different Jesus's which the world loves, and the righteous Jesus which the world hates. Adrian Rogers preached the Jesus who loved all mankind, gave himself for everyone. He was a Godly, sound Bible preacher and YOU don't like him because he plowed down the row of the Calvinist/reformed. Truly born again saved persons, indwelled with the Holy Ghost, CAN fall into sin so bad that God will KILL them...he chastens his own. Furthermore, YOU are presently in sin yourself not only because you teach false doctrine, but because you are falsely accusing a man of God.

Please post it, thanks.

 

Hi Heartstrings

 

In the post above, you acuse Covenanter of falsely claiming that Adrian Rogers included, in Covenanter's words, a "salvation prayer" in his 'Disgrace to Grace' sermon. You say that "all (you) found" when you listened to a sermon of the same name was some other contents, the OBvious implication being that there was no reference to a salvation/sinner's prayer in Rogers' sermon at all.

 

Now that Covenanter >has indeed posted it up and even SFIC (who earlier 'liked' your post) >has acknowledged that there is indeed reference to something like a salvation/sinner's prayer at the end of the sermon (though SFIC says he thinks it isn't actually one), do you still want to claim that the sermon contains no such thing?

 

I've now listened to that section (and I'm going to listen to the rest because it sounds like a good sermon--haven't heard of Adrian Rogers before) and I can certainly see which bit Covenanter was talking about.

Edited by Alimantado

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I jumped ahead a few pages, due to time constraints, and this may have been dealt with-if so, forgive my repitition.

 

Concerning being able to 'walk away' from Christ willingly.

 

The Bible makes clear that the work Jesus did on the cross was not only to pay for sin, but in dpoing so, He literally purchased those who would be saved through His blood. he literally owns those who are His.

 

Eph 1:12-14

"That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

 

1Cor 6:20  "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

 

1Cor 7:23  "Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men."

 

                              A possession has no right to do as it will.

 

As well, Jesus makes this fact clear:

 

   John 10:28, 29

   "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

   My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. "

 

Some will say, "Oh, but we can pluck ourselves out!" Really? The thing to consider is, Jesus said no one can pluck us out, because the Father is greater than all. So, only if we are greater than almighty God could we hope to pluck ourselves out of God's hand.

 

  I just do not see in scripture where there is really any way that a believer could possibly turn willingly away from God and reject the salvation he has.

 

See, we tend to think of salvation as a one-way thing: its what I have, what Jesus gave to ME--MY salvation. Well, Jesus also BOUGHT us on Calvary with His blood. When we receive His salvation, He becomes our Lord and owner-He PAID for us, we are HIS, no longer our own to do and go as we like. We get Him, but he also gets us.  

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Hi Heartstrings

 

In the post above, you acuse Covenanter of falsely claiming that Adrian Rogers included, in Covenanter's words, a "salvation prayer" in his 'Disgrace to Grace' sermon. You say that "all (you) found" when you listened to a sermon of the same name was some other contents, the OBvious implication being that there was no reference to a salvation/sinner's prayer in Rogers' sermon at all.

 

Now that Covenanter >has indeed posted it up and even SFIC (who earlier 'liked' your post) >has acknowledged that there is indeed reference to something like a salvation/sinner's prayer at the end of the sermon (though SFIC says he thinks it isn't actually one), do you still want to claim that the sermon contains no such thing?

 

I've now listened to that section (and I'm going to listen to the rest because it sounds like a good sermon--haven't heard of Adrian Rogers before) and I can certainly see which bit Covenanter was talking about.

Brother Alimantado;

I don't recall disputing that there was "no salvation prayer". Perhaps you could point that out? The issue I had with Covenanter was this part...
 

A dangerous argument for eternal security was put forward by the late Adrian Rogers e.g. in his sermon "Lot - A disgrace to grace" in which he [Adrain Rogers] argued that if you have gone through the "salvation prayer" on the lines of: "Lord Jesus, I admit I am a sinner, & I believe you died for my sins, so I can be forgiven" then you are truly saved. You can live a filthy rotten life (like Lot), but you can't lose your salvation.

 

I tried to show Covenanter that the whole message was about living right and not being a "disgrace to grace". In the message, Adrian Rogers merely used Lot as an illustration of a "just man", a real saint of God who chose the world and thereby as a consequence lost his family. His life, testimony, and posterity were indeed wrecked because of his own decision to live for the World. But God will not allow one of His own to live a "filthy rotten life" and get away with it. 

 

May I elaborate more? The Bible speaks of others, besides Lot, who did not "persevere" in their Godly living including the man in 1 Corinthians who Paul said had "his father's wife" and was about to be turned over the Devil for the "destruction of the flesh" that the "spirit might be saved". In other words, this dude was committing a "sin unto death". God has not made us automatic "perseverers" evidenced by the man in 1 Corinthians 5: Just as surely as you have a choice to choose Eternal Life AKA Jesus Christ, you also have a choice to live for him in this life. God will not make us live for him, but He will make us wish we had....like old Brother Lot learned too late..

 

Covenanter, If you believe on Jesus in your heart, no matter what "words" you may "repeat" or come up with on your own or utter none at all, you are saved. As sure as I'm breathing that's the kind of salvation that Adrian Rogers preached. Even a person with ALS, like Steven Hawking, whose "trapped" body can do no more than twitch it's cheek, if he truly repented in his heart, turned to Jesus from sin and self, the Holy Ghost would come into that man and he could be gloriously saved...saved for eternity. Could he later sin? Yes. Because we are all still sinners, we all have "the sin that so easily besets us" and we all have the propensity to "love this present world". 

 

Listening to the sermon again.........

Edited by heartstrings

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Ok

At the 43.03 mark he says "if you will pray a prayer like that and mean it......."

 

First of all he said "prayer" and he gave the stipulation that you must "mean it".   He's not telling anyone to say certain words because he says a prayer "Like that" . He is just showing you how to come to God and he's showing you the issues to be dealt with in coming to God and I noticed he mentioned these three things... "I'm a sinner" "I'm lost" "Jesus you died to save me" Those three issues are the three that the Holy Spirit deals with the heart: sin, righteousness, and judgement.

 

Sin.......I'm a low down wicked sinner

Righteousness......God is Love and Holy and righteous and he displayed all of that in Jesus and on Calvary.

Judgement.....I'm on my way to Hell for all eternity and I deserve it.

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