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Agreement/disagreement With The Pastor


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I didn't end up going to the Tue. night Bible study at their house (I was sick) and I haven't been back to the church. I sent them a couple emails but they haven't responded so I am taking it in a way

To answer the OP, and not throw gas on the fire of doctrinal discussion...   I was raised in an IFB church by my IFB preacher Dad my whole life, saved at the age of 5 and surrendered to preach at 14

It really depends upon what we believe the pastor to be in the wrong about. Is he wrong about the color he wants the church to be painted or is he wrong about his presentation of the Gospel?   I've

Covenanter: I'm not really sure. I'm not going to find out because I'm not going back. However, I'm not breaking fellowship. I'm going to go to his wife's woman's home Bible study group on Tuesdays and she is going with me to another one I am involved with on Thursdays. I still believe they're saved but perhaps misinformed or have misinterpreted, which I believe we all do at times. I struggled with it myself for years in AOG. I have been saved for over 30 years and don't believe that during my time of doubts or questions that I was lost. I also have friends that struggle. Now I am grounded so perhaps I can be used to plant seeds.

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Covenanter: I'm not really sure. I'm not going to find out because I'm not going back. However, I'm not breaking fellowship. I'm going to go to his wife's woman's home Bible study group on Tuesdays and she is going with me to another one I am involved with on Thursdays. I still believe they're saved but perhaps misinformed or have misinterpreted, which I believe we all do at times. I struggled with it myself for years in AOG. I have been saved for over 30 years and don't believe that during my time of doubts or questions that I was lost. I also have friends that struggle. Now I am grounded so perhaps I can be used to plant seeds.

It's prOBably too early for feedback, but I am posting as a reminder of your concerns.
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A dangerous argument for eternal security was put forward by the late Adrian Rogers e.g. in his sermon "Lot - A disgrace to grace" in which he argued that if you have gone through the "salvation prayer" on the lines of: "Lord Jesus, I admit I am a sinner, & I believe you died for my sins, so I can be forgiven" then you are truly saved. You can live a filthy rotten life (like Lot), but you can't lose your salvation. 

 

Covenantor, Would you mind posting a link to that "Lot, a disgrace to grace" sermon? All I found was "Don't be a Disgrace to Grace" in which the WHOLE MESSAGE is exhorting born again Christians to live right and separate from the world and worldly lusts. The message also speaks of different Jesus's which the world loves, and the righteous Jesus which the world hates. Adrian Rogers preached the Jesus who loved all mankind, gave himself for everyone. He was a Godly, sound Bible preacher and YOU don't like him because he plowed down the row of the Calvinist/reformed. Truly born again saved persons, indwelled with the Holy Ghost, CAN fall into sin so bad that God will KILL them...he chastens his own. Furthermore, YOU are presently in sin yourself not only because you teach false doctrine, but because you are falsely accusing a man of God.

Please post it, thanks.

 

Hi Heartstrings

 

In the post above, you acuse Covenanter of falsely claiming that Adrian Rogers included, in Covenanter's words, a "salvation prayer" in his 'Disgrace to Grace' sermon. You say that "all (you) found" when you listened to a sermon of the same name was some other contents, the OBvious implication being that there was no reference to a salvation/sinner's prayer in Rogers' sermon at all.

 

Now that Covenanter >has indeed posted it up and even SFIC (who earlier 'liked' your post) >has acknowledged that there is indeed reference to something like a salvation/sinner's prayer at the end of the sermon (though SFIC says he thinks it isn't actually one), do you still want to claim that the sermon contains no such thing?

 

I've now listened to that section (and I'm going to listen to the rest because it sounds like a good sermon--haven't heard of Adrian Rogers before) and I can certainly see which bit Covenanter was talking about.

Edited by Alimantado
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I jumped ahead a few pages, due to time constraints, and this may have been dealt with-if so, forgive my repitition.

 

Concerning being able to 'walk away' from Christ willingly.

 

The Bible makes clear that the work Jesus did on the cross was not only to pay for sin, but in dpoing so, He literally purchased those who would be saved through His blood. he literally owns those who are His.

 

Eph 1:12-14

"That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

 

1Cor 6:20  "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

 

1Cor 7:23  "Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men."

 

                              A possession has no right to do as it will.

 

As well, Jesus makes this fact clear:

 

   John 10:28, 29

   "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

   My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. "

 

Some will say, "Oh, but we can pluck ourselves out!" Really? The thing to consider is, Jesus said no one can pluck us out, because the Father is greater than all. So, only if we are greater than almighty God could we hope to pluck ourselves out of God's hand.

 

  I just do not see in scripture where there is really any way that a believer could possibly turn willingly away from God and reject the salvation he has.

 

See, we tend to think of salvation as a one-way thing: its what I have, what Jesus gave to ME--MY salvation. Well, Jesus also BOUGHT us on Calvary with His blood. When we receive His salvation, He becomes our Lord and owner-He PAID for us, we are HIS, no longer our own to do and go as we like. We get Him, but he also gets us.  

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Hi Heartstrings

 

In the post above, you acuse Covenanter of falsely claiming that Adrian Rogers included, in Covenanter's words, a "salvation prayer" in his 'Disgrace to Grace' sermon. You say that "all (you) found" when you listened to a sermon of the same name was some other contents, the OBvious implication being that there was no reference to a salvation/sinner's prayer in Rogers' sermon at all.

 

Now that Covenanter >has indeed posted it up and even SFIC (who earlier 'liked' your post) >has acknowledged that there is indeed reference to something like a salvation/sinner's prayer at the end of the sermon (though SFIC says he thinks it isn't actually one), do you still want to claim that the sermon contains no such thing?

 

I've now listened to that section (and I'm going to listen to the rest because it sounds like a good sermon--haven't heard of Adrian Rogers before) and I can certainly see which bit Covenanter was talking about.

Brother Alimantado;

I don't recall disputing that there was "no salvation prayer". Perhaps you could point that out? The issue I had with Covenanter was this part...
 

A dangerous argument for eternal security was put forward by the late Adrian Rogers e.g. in his sermon "Lot - A disgrace to grace" in which he [Adrain Rogers] argued that if you have gone through the "salvation prayer" on the lines of: "Lord Jesus, I admit I am a sinner, & I believe you died for my sins, so I can be forgiven" then you are truly saved. You can live a filthy rotten life (like Lot), but you can't lose your salvation.

 

I tried to show Covenanter that the whole message was about living right and not being a "disgrace to grace". In the message, Adrian Rogers merely used Lot as an illustration of a "just man", a real saint of God who chose the world and thereby as a consequence lost his family. His life, testimony, and posterity were indeed wrecked because of his own decision to live for the World. But God will not allow one of His own to live a "filthy rotten life" and get away with it. 

 

May I elaborate more? The Bible speaks of others, besides Lot, who did not "persevere" in their Godly living including the man in 1 Corinthians who Paul said had "his father's wife" and was about to be turned over the Devil for the "destruction of the flesh" that the "spirit might be saved". In other words, this dude was committing a "sin unto death". God has not made us automatic "perseverers" evidenced by the man in 1 Corinthians 5: Just as surely as you have a choice to choose Eternal Life AKA Jesus Christ, you also have a choice to live for him in this life. God will not make us live for him, but He will make us wish we had....like old Brother Lot learned too late..

 

Covenanter, If you believe on Jesus in your heart, no matter what "words" you may "repeat" or come up with on your own or utter none at all, you are saved. As sure as I'm breathing that's the kind of salvation that Adrian Rogers preached. Even a person with ALS, like Steven Hawking, whose "trapped" body can do no more than twitch it's cheek, if he truly repented in his heart, turned to Jesus from sin and self, the Holy Ghost would come into that man and he could be gloriously saved...saved for eternity. Could he later sin? Yes. Because we are all still sinners, we all have "the sin that so easily besets us" and we all have the propensity to "love this present world". 

 

Listening to the sermon again.........

Edited by heartstrings
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Ok

At the 43.03 mark he says "if you will pray a prayer like that and mean it......."

 

First of all he said "prayer" and he gave the stipulation that you must "mean it".   He's not telling anyone to say certain words because he says a prayer "Like that" . He is just showing you how to come to God and he's showing you the issues to be dealt with in coming to God and I noticed he mentioned these three things... "I'm a sinner" "I'm lost" "Jesus you died to save me" Those three issues are the three that the Holy Spirit deals with the heart: sin, righteousness, and judgement.

 

Sin.......I'm a low down wicked sinner

Righteousness......God is Love and Holy and righteous and he displayed all of that in Jesus and on Calvary.

Judgement.....I'm on my way to Hell for all eternity and I deserve it.

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heartstrings, could you move this conversation over to the thread begun specifically for the sermon?  '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>>

 

That way this thread isn't hijacked.  Thanks (Carl, please post your comments over there, too. Thanks.).

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Thank you for sharing that GraceSaved!

 

We serve a wonderful God! Whenever we step out in accord with His Word, even though it may seem dark and no clear path can be seen, He is ever faithful to work all things together for good! When a door is closed to us, He opens another.

 

I'm rejoicing with you in what the Lord has provided.

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My journey so far....so I found out that the church I visited that the friend recommended believes in speaking in (modern) tongues.  Do I go to the church that does not believe in eternal security, speaks in tongues (although they apparently do not practice in a corporate setting due to it being controversial) or not go anywhere at all?

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 I would leave the Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, and  "Holiness" places alone. Stay away from
Freewill Baptists also because they do not hold to eternal security either. I would recommend that you find a Bible believing Independent Fundamental Baptist church.

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It really depends a great deal upon the pastor. That Assemblies of God church I was saved in had a conservative pastor who preached well from the Bible. While they officially believed in speaking in tongues, it wasn't something that was ever practiced in the church nor did the pastor ever preach upon that during the time I attended. The pastor who took his place was almost totally the opposite. He didn't preach good sermons from the Bible, he did talk a lot about speaking in tongues, he did speak in tongues from the stage (he turned the platform into a stage by putting a rock band there) and he encourged everyone to speak in tongues. That's when I left.

 

There was a time I attended a Church of Christ (I think it was that, it was the church where they don't believe in musical intruments for worship). Officially that church has some teachings I don't believe in, but the pastor during those few months I was there never once touched upon anything particular to that denominations stances. His sermons were biblically sound and he conducted a men's Bible study that was biblically sound; again with nothing from the denominations teachings ever put forth. I was only there for about three months as I was transitioning from another church that had gone bad due to a new pastor coming in and changing everything to a more modernistic and entertainment style.

 

If you can find a church that's "good enough", one that preaches the Word and will edify you without filling your mind with strange teachings, then attend there until the Lord leads you to a permanent church home.

 

I know many folks who are in SBC churches, various non-denominational churches and others where they are being fed the Word and able to grow in Christ even though there are points they take issue with in those churches.

 

From my experience, as well as from what others have said to me, if you can't attend a really good church but there is a good, or sometimes just an okay church you can attend, that's better than no church at all.

 

Again, it often comes down to the pastor and what he chooses to focus upon for his preaching and teaching.

 

Be in much prayer and follow the Lord's leading.

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I was shocked one time when visiting family to hear good preaching at a Methodist church.  The pastor had been the pastor there for 54 years, and was still preaching the same as when he started.  I guess the Methodist church wasn't always the horrible mess it is in today.  So, don't give up.  It doesn't have to say "Baptist" on the sign to have a good pastor leading the flock.  

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You do, indeed, face a difficult decision:

 

  Go to a church with some aberrant teachings

 

or

 

  Go nowhere.

 

Both have challenges to them.  Personally, I would choose the church with the fewest aberrant doctrines, because no matter where you go, chances are there will be something you disagree with-a perfect church wouldn't want you, or me, as part anywaqys because we would surely bring them down a notch or two.

 

But, the reason I would go the way I would, is because to get out altogether is dangerous-a church with a few dfficulties will challenge one to study things out, to better learn the doctrines in question. And you'll certainly have to stay in prayer, and teach your children the truth of the matter, but to get out al the way can set a precedence in your live that can be very dfficult to overcome.  I got out of church for a while due to issues I had with the pastor, and I found it difficult to get back in again, and then, to remain faithful. It took my new pastor to lovingly, but firmly, call me on lying about why I was missing service to wake me up, humble me and get right. But it was hard. Believers are made to seek fellowship and to be a part of a church-to not be a part is unnatural for the believer, so better to go somewhere where there might be some wrong teachings, (if not too bad), and keep yourself pure, while reaping the benefits of the assembly, than to leave it all, even for a while, and risk falling into a spiritual stupor.

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What if the only options are Churches that don't teach or preach from the KJV?  That is how it is in our town.  MV's, CCM, Catholic, Mormon or Jehovah's Witness.  Not any that I care to attend.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

If the differences are such that the two can't walk together, then it's time to either move to where there is a good one, or start a new work. (And to be honest, I'm not sure that I would say that the tithing issue is a separation issue). If it was I could never be an IFB because prOBably 95% teach tithing. I think they are wrong, but if I give I give as a free-will offering, not a tithe-the guys doing the books can call it whatever they like.

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For me, the tithing is an issue. I am not welcome back at that Church unless I admit to them that I am wrong about tithes... which, of course, will never happen. How can I lie against the truth?

Moving is not an option for me, not enough finances to even consider it.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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If the differences are such that the two can't walk together, then it's time to either move to where there is a good one, or start a new work. (And to be honest, I'm not sure that I would say that the tithing issue is a separation issue). If it was I could never be an IFB because prOBably 95% teach tithing. I think they are wrong, but if I give I give as a free-will offering, not a tithe-the guys doing the books can call it whatever they like.

 

I would ask you to present some proof that "95% teach tithing".

 

This is not my experience at all.

 

I have NEVER personally heard the tithe taught as a necessity in any IFB church I have ever been to.

 

I certainly am not saying it does not happen, but when people use terms like "95%" or even "most", I find it hard to believe.

 

I have heard people use it as "an example to follow, but only as the Lord leads", never as a necessity - the heart of giving is always emphasised.

 

So - prove it, or stop it.

 

Proof of "most" or "95%" or else stop saying it.

 

How about saying "Whenever people preach tithing as a necessity it is wrong"?

 

That I have no prOBlem with.

At all.

 

In any way......

 

But stop making accusations that are simply not true.

 

It is not 95%, nor in my experience is it "most".

 

MY personal experience is that it is actually NO IFB church preaches it, but I have heard reports of some who do, so I would never say that no IFB church preaches - that would by just as wrong as saying "95%" or "Most".

 

"Some do" would be an acceptable statement - but not "95%".

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I don't know about IFB in Australia, but here in America most preach the tithe, and a good many of them preach on the subject often, and a good many of those use the appeal to greed and fear in order to "convince" their congregation to tithe.

 

I've heard very few IFB pastors in America preach NT giving.

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I know my pastor preaches to tithe, then we have a whole month of "missionary month" in OctOBer, which is just a whole month of trying to get blood out of turnips in my church. We have an average Sunday adult attendance in church of average of 12 regulars, 20 on a good Sunday. Not all tithe or "give willingly". I hear how God will get it out of you someway, your car will break down and be the price of what you would normally give. Then every year, want you to increase your giving to the church, to the missionaries, to the school, or whatever pet project is going on at the moment.

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Since there is only one IFB Church in my town, and it teaches that God requires Church members to tithe their money, then I would say 100% of the IFB Churches in my town teach that false doctrine.

Likewise, when I lived in Randleman, NC, there was only one IFB Church in the whole town.  It also taught that God requires Church members to tithe their money.  So, again.  100% of the IFB Churches in Randleman teach that false doctrine.

Matter of fact, in every IFB Church I have ever visited teach that God requires Church members to tithe their money.  So, again.  100% of the IFB Churches I have visited teach that false doctrine.

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