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What about Col 2:1? "Beware" lest any man spoil you...

The letter is to the saints and faithful brethren in Christ not to unbelievers.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard...

Paul is talking to believers, telling them they are reconciled then says "if ye continue in the faith. You have to continue in the faith and not be moved away from the hope...then in Ch 2 tells them to beware because they could be spoiled.

If this can't happen, why the warnings? They're all over scripture.

Guys...or anyone reading. I am sincerely trying to understand.


I think you are reading into the passage what is not there.
It is referring to their walk with the Lord, not their salvation.

It is talking about following false teachers - vs 20 - if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of this world, why, as though living in the world, ate ye subject to ordinances....

They had stopped walking with the Lord, following men's doctrines, but it does not say they became unsaved because of it.

We are everywhere warned about false teachers, but there is a difference between fellowship with Christ and relationship with Christ.
Our fellowship with Him can be broken, but our relationship is fixed at salvation. We are adopted, and this can not be undone.
Kids may not talk to their parents, but they never stop being their child.

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Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBey him;

OBviously there are those who can disOBey if it is addressed to only those who OBey.

Then moving on to v 11 my KJ has a heading "warning against apostasy" of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away...

I admit, if you read earlier posts between me and Paid4...I do not have a clear understanding of this chapter. I see two possible interpretations. Are these false converts or those believers considering going back into Judaism?

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Dave: I understand Jesus did not deny Peter to the Father. When Peter denied Christ, it was out of fear and not out of unbelief, that's why he wept bitterly after the fact.

The word "apostasy" is not found anywhere in the KJV.  The words "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2 is translated from the Greek "apostasia".  This word is found in only two verses in the KJV..

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

In this verse, the word "apostasia" is translated as "forsake"  Paul was teaching saved Jews to abandon the Law. 

Apostsy in Acts 21 does not indicate loss of Salvation. 

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In 2 Thessalonians 2, we see "falling away" to be the apostasy.  Who is doing the falling away?  Context will tell.  It is those who "received not the love for the truth that they might be saved". (v.10)  Again, this is not speaking of one who is saved losing his or her Salvation.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Hebrews 5:9 doesn't say all those continue to OBey him.
It is OBeying to salvation - must be, because it is eternal salvation being spoken of.
If it is eternal it can't end - or else it is not eternal.

Heb 6:6.....

Hoping you wouldn't bring that one up! (Joke).

It is a really hard passage because of the phrasing.
It says if they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance....
Those words "renew" and "again" certainly seem to indicate the regaining of what they had before......

First thing to note is the use of "those", "they" - third person; whereas the rest is "we", "us", and "you".
It seems the writer is referring to other than the group including himself and the hearers.
Some people make a big deal out of "tasted", saying they had not accepted fully, but just "tried out" the Lord....
Not sure if I go along with that entirely.
And vs 5 says they were "partakers of the Holy Ghost"..... how does that fit in?
How can you be a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and not be saved?

You know what..... I am not sure.
This is one of those passages where I see it is talking about "those" not "us" and I see the great weight of verses that say "everlasting life", and I know that no man can pluck me from my Father's hand, and I say to myself "One day the Lord may teach me clearly what this passage means, but for now I must accept that eternal life is eternal, and I don't know how to reconcile this verse."

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I believe Dave is right concerning the "we" and "those"  Paul switches to an outside party and not Christians. 

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Read verse 9...
 

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

There are things that accompany Salvation.  These things that accompany Salvation the people Paul was addressing had.  But the those clearly did not.  They were never saved.

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Yeah. One day we will know for sure the passages we have trouble with. Right now I'm too tired to try to keep figuring it all out. Tomorrow is another day. But thank you guys. I appreciate the fellowship and sharing the scriptures.

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So I had the meeting. I'm very pleased with the spirit of the meeting being fellowship-like and coming together to share our beliefs, backgrounds and understanding of scripture, sharing our faith and experiences and getting to know each other on a personal level. It wasn't about this is right or this is wrong. Afterward, they thanked me for inviting them and told me they enjoyed our time together and that it helps them with their own faith when others share their perspectives and enriches their own understanding, etc.

I found out he's not a pastor but he believes his calling is to evangelize and they are currently looking for someone to be an elder of their assembly.

This is what he believes in a nutshell about eternal security. He believes God is always faithful even when we are not but God allows us to choose if we want to continue in the faith. If we choose to walk away from the faith, we are no longer trusting in God's grace, since it is by grace through faith that we are saved, therefore, that person can fall away by their own choice by no longer believing and trusting in God. It is not God taking away salvation, but our choice, even after once we believed, to deny grace by walking away from the faith. Does that make sense?

 

Thanks for sharing - we need to continue praying. We don't immediately come to a full understanding. You have have questioned an important aspect of his belief, & he has received you courteously. The seed of the Word has been sown. No need for a hasty decision, nor a hasty exit. You have the opening, & he appreciates your fellowship. Others may be affected, & concerned about that teaching. You can share when appropriate without attacking him in a personal way - try to keep it as a discussion topic.

 

Are sinners being drawn to Christ, & saved by the Gospel he preaches? Are his warnings about falling away in the context  of encouragements to keep close to Jesus, in prayer & reading, & godly living?

 

Is he a true believer, seeking to serve Jesus as Lord & Saviour, & to call sinners to salvation?

 

Where I have fallen out with Pastors is when they make issues discussed in private, subjects to address from the pulpit. That becomes very painful.

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As our associate pastor prefers to say, "IF saved, ALWAYS saved". I'm short on time at the moment so maybe someone else can put the Scripture in this thread regarding that if we are saved we WILL persevere in the faith.

 

There are some who are saved, seriously backslide, the Lord chastens, and if they reject correction Scripture indicates God may end their life. To us such may appear to die having either left the faith or never having been saved, but such isn't the case.

 

There are also those who not only fool others, but even themselves into thinking they are saved, good with God, heaven bound, yet they are not born again in Christ. This is why sometimes we hear stories of someone who has been a "good Christian" for 30 years and then actually got saved. Unfortunately, many simply continue on as "good Christians" without salvation and sometimes these eventually leave the church, but as First John tells us, they weren't really of us to begin with.

 

If we are biblically saved, the Holy Ghost seals us. This is an eternal seal that no man, no devil, no thing, can break. If we are biblically saved, we are forever, eternally, everlastingly saved.

 

This whole issue also highlights just how dangerous "quick prayerism" is and why the proper, biblical presentation of the Gospel is so important.

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"How do you have a relationship with God if you stop walking with Him?"

 

 

Now there's the million dollar question.

The key doctrines you're having trouble with is salvation and fellowship.

Read John chapter 3

If someone is really born again then it's settled. Relate this to being born physically. If you move away from your parents you don't see them everyday. This creates a lack of fellowship but you are no less their child than you were when you stayed at home. The apostasy is just that. A word we use today is backslide. It's when you get to a certain point in your walk with God and you either stop growing or start to relapse back to some things you used to do.

To put it into Biblical context please study Matthew 24:24, 1 Corinthians 5:1, Luke 8:5-15,

 

If you are BORN AGAIN then you cannot change that. The beauty of salvation is, that just like being born the first time, you have no control over the birthing. It's done by God, for the Glory of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. 

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The crime...A "red letter" crime that any that believe you can lose your salvation would say would qualify.  

 

1 Corinthians 5:1 (KJV)
1  It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 

 

The recommended punishment for the unrepentant person...

 

1 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV)
5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 

 

This saved person was committing sins "worthy of death" (the destruction of the flesh), but he himself is saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

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I'm not having trouble with salvation, the security thereof, fellowship, relationship with God or even backsliding. I'm having trouble with apostasy, the unpardonable sin and who commits the unpardonable sin. I know apostasy is not in the scripture but it is used to describe falling away just like the word rapture we use today is to describe the meeting in the air. I don't think backsliding is in there either but is a term we use to describe a believer who is living in sin, which I believe such a person is still saved.

OK...back to the Good Book...:-)

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Here's a tongue twister...I believe a believer is a believer as long as the believer still believes. :-)

That is prOBably true if we are discussing Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, however not true when discussing my ever faithful and true savior Jesus who will never ever let me fall from His hand.

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One verse that means much to me in this context, Grace, is John 10:27-29 (okay, several verses :wink).

 

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

 

Isn't the believer himself a man (generally speaking)? If 'no man' can pluck a believer out of God's hand (salvation), then that means that I myself cannot pluck myself out of God's hand. Period.

 

I think a lot of people (including Calvinists and even some David Cloud adherents) get confused in this area because they confuse passages referring to sanctification with those of salvation. DaveW has given you some excellent responses in this area. 
 

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Scripture tells us that when we accept Christ as Savior, we become God's child, right?

 

John 1:12: "But as many as received him [Christ] to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

 

1 John 3:1: "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God..."

 

As children of our heavenly Father, we can disOBey Him, just as our earthly children disOBey us. Sometimes our children even disOBey to the point of saying things like "I hate you," "I wish you weren't my mother (father)", etc. etc.  And it hurts us greatly if they do so.  But does it change the fact that we are, indeed, their parent?  Absolutely not.  

 

In past years, I've heard of different kids who've "divorced" their parents - actually going to court and getting the divorce.  Did that change the fact that those parents were still their parents? Of course not.  A court might terminate parental rights, they might grant a child a divorce (such stupidity), but once that child is born, parents are parents, even if the child dies.

 

Now, I realize those 2 paragraphs aren't scripture, but they are apropos, because God calls us His children. He calls Himself our Father.  Once we are born into His family, we become His children - not by what we've done, but by what He's done (same as physical parents...the child had nothing to do with his birth). Of course, people need to realize they are sinners and in need of Christ and turn to Him before salvation and thus is a bit different than physical birth.

 

But even Christ gave an earthly example to show the relationship between God the Father and His children.  The prodigal son is often used as a story to talk about a lost person coming to salvation.  But that isn't what it's about at all.  It is a picture of one of God's children going his/her own way.  And suffering the consequences of the foolishness of that.  

 

As the son wasted himself in riotous living, the father waited for him to come home.  How do we know this?  Because Luke 15 tells us that when the son was "yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him"

 

The backslidden son had come home.  With the right attitude - knowing that he had sinned against his father and wasn't worthy to be called a son anymore.  But what did the father do?  He put a ring on his finger, shoes on his feet, and a rOBe on him - all things to show he was, indeed, a son.

 

That son had chosen to walk away from his father.  But he never ceased being a son.  And so it is with a person who is truly saved - they might walk away fro the Father, but they don't cease being a son.  The Holy Spirit will work to draw that child back and when said child comes to himself, as the prodigal did, and head home to the Father, He will meet him with forgiveness.

 

 

Grace, here is a good article on the book of Jude. Jude condemned apostates, and this does a good jOB of explaining what is meant.  Hint: it's not talking about Christians who choose to unbelieve.  :icon_smile:

 

http://bible-truth.org/Jude.html

 

 

Here's just a portion (it's too long to insert totally into a post):

 

        In verses 5-7, Jude warned about past apostasies in the Old Testament and of its consequences. God judged those who turned from God's truth and He "in like manner" [verse 8] will continue to do so with all who reject Him today. Jude calls these false teachers "filthy dreamers." The word "filthy," correctly added by the King James Bible translators explains the state of these apostate teachers. It emphasizes the seriousness and degree of sin they commit. Paul describes them in Romans 1:21-23.

                The apostasy of these evil people was not done ignorantly. They fully knew who God is and yet in their pride elevated themselves over God and deliberately changed the glory of our uncorruptible God into one of corruption made in the likeness of sinful man.

  •                  "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." Jude identifies them "dreamers," which means to see dreams or delusions. The word is a verb, meaning “being given over to sensuous dreamings.” 

  •  

  • The word used by Jude for “dreamers” is not the word that normally refers to a dream. Rather this word refers to a confused state of the soul, an abnormal imagination that holds the dreamer captive by ungodly sensuality. In other words, their teachings are the rooted in their delusional and sinful minds warped by sin. It is the mark of an apostate, as well as a cult, that their teaching is unrealistic and unnatural. [see 1 Cor. 2:14] How frustrating it is to try and explain God's truth to these blind and unhearing people. In their own feelings of pride in their intellect and knowledge reject God's truth off hand. The do not see themselves as sinners and will not repent and be saved. Thinking themselves to be wise, they make themselves to be fools and "blind guides." [see Matthew 23:16, 24]

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Question 1: If a believer understands apostasy to mean a person who once believed but then chose to walk away from that belief (Believer #1), and another person understands apostasy to mean that the apostate never came to saving faith in the first place (Believer #2), is this reason to break fellowship? Can there still be unity by respectfully agreeing to disagree?

Question 2: If "Believer #1 maintains that belief, does that possibly mean they may have not come to saving faith themselves? Or, could it mean they have simply misinterpreted scripture?

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Question 1: If a believer understands apostasy to mean a person who once believed but then chose to walk away from that belief (Believer #1), and another person understands apostasy to mean that the apostate never came to saving faith in the first place (Believer #2), is this reason to break fellowship? Can there still be unity by respectfully agreeing to disagree?Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?



 

It means they do not fully understand Scripture and are not allowing the Spirit to guide them into that truth

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Question 1: If a believer understands apostasy to mean a person who once believed but then chose to walk away from that belief (Believer #1), and another person understands apostasy to mean that the apostate never came to saving faith in the first place (Believer #2), is this reason to break fellowship? Can there still be unity by respectfully agreeing to disagree?

Question 2: If "Believer #1 maintains that belief, does that possibly mean they may have not come to saving faith themselves? Or, could it mean they have simply misinterpreted scripture?

Question 1: There can be a little bit of unity, but not actually a lot because there is false doctrine on the one side,truth on the other.  We can agree to disagree, but there is not very much a basis for fellowship because salvation is the cornerstone of fellowship for the believer. It is what sets us apart and if we continually fellowship with someone who believes that a believer can become unsaved we will be influenced in that way (especially if we sit under preaching that teaches that...even subtly, which is how Jude describes the apostate's influence...).  

 

Question 2: Yes and yes.  If it is the first part of your question, they are apostate, teaching heresy that will deceive.  If it is b, they are basically going on how they have been taught to look at certain scriptures which underline their beliefs instead of looking at scripture as a whole and understanding the character of the God Who crafted salvation and promised eternal life to any who turns to Him.

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I believe Amos 3:3 is saying two people cannot walk together unless they agree to. This is not saying to separate from someone who does not agree with us on issues. I don't know anyone who agrees on everything all the time. If that were the case, we would most likely, at most times, be walking alone. This is a call to unity, not separation. Mutually agreeing to walk together.

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