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Paid4:  Ok...so the group in v 4 were never truly converted? They were enlightened, tasted, partakers but fell away and rejected Christ, therefore crucifying Him once again through their rejection? So,in a sense, Paul is giving them a warning of possible falling away if we don't go past milk because we wouldn't get the nourishment needed for growth to keep us from falling away and going back to the world or to the law as those in v 4? That's why v 8 says whose end is to be burned?

v 9 is the transition back to the true believer? First a word of warning v 4 and then encouragement? A call from immaturity to maturity?

I'll keep meditating on it.

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I didn't end up going to the Tue. night Bible study at their house (I was sick) and I haven't been back to the church. I sent them a couple emails but they haven't responded so I am taking it in a way

To answer the OP, and not throw gas on the fire of doctrinal discussion...   I was raised in an IFB church by my IFB preacher Dad my whole life, saved at the age of 5 and surrendered to preach at 14

It really depends upon what we believe the pastor to be in the wrong about. Is he wrong about the color he wants the church to be painted or is he wrong about his presentation of the Gospel?   I've

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Covenantor, Would you mind posting a link to that "Lot, a disgrace to grace" sermon? All I found was "Don't be a Disgrace to Grace" in which the WHOLE MESSAGE is exhorting born again Christians to live right and separate from the world and worldly lusts. The message also speaks of different Jesus's which the world loves, and the righteous Jesus which the world hates. Adrian Rogers preached the Jesus who loved all mankind, gave himself for everyone. He was a Godly, sound Bible preacher and YOU don't like him because he plowed down the row of the Calvinist/reformed. Truly born again saved persons, indwelled with the Holy Ghost, CAN fall into sin so bad that God will KILL them...he chastens his own. Furthermore, YOU are presently in sin yourself not only because you teach false doctrine, but because you are falsely accusing a man of God.

Please post it, thanks.


Let's avoid the personal attacks, please and thank you. 

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I've listened to many sermons from Adrian Rogers and never heard him say anything even remotely like the idea of one being saved and living like the devil. I have heard Charles Stanley say that, but not Adrian Rogers. If he did say that in a sermon I would very much like to hear that sermon for myself.


And really, there is no need to bring up Calvinism in every thread or to take shots at one another in every thread.


I still love listening to Rogers and have learned much from his sermons over the years but I'm not going to take a jab at someone because they make a claim regarding one of his sermons. I'm content to await a link to the sermon or perhaps a correction if an error has occurred.

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I have been working with a Church of God convert, who is very confused. We struggled and struggled, but he couldn't believe in Eternal Life (OSAS). Come to find out, he was secretly a porn addict. All of his "theology" was because of guilt of unconfessed (and prOBably unforgiven) sin. This was the second time that I struggled long with an apparent disciple, who turned out to be a pervert. One man, who I challenged on his COGIC illogic, recieved Christ, and has been in the ministry now for years. Difference? He wasn't a pervert hiding his sin, pretending to be fine. I am leary now, of those who slap Christ in the face, and say "your sacrifice was not enough, you need my help in keeping me". I'm afraid I'll find a cross-dresser in the closet, or worse.

Edited by prophet1
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Some folks who don't believe in eternal salvation (security) also don't know the truth of biblical salvation. That's where I always begin with such folks, going over biblical salvation with them to find out if they even understand what that is and if they have been born again or not.


Growing up in Methodist Sunday school I never once heard the Gospel. All I got out of all those years was that I had to "be good" to get into heaven and if I wasn't "good enough" I would go to hell. Naturally that left me frightened since there was never given, because there isn't, a definition of just what "good enough" means. To make my fear worse, I was also taught that not only was the devil always around trying to "get me", but God was also looking on just waiting for me to do something wrong so He could punish me.


That's what I got out of Methodist Sunday school and that's the baggage I carried with me until I was 18, finally heard the Gospel and was saved.

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First of all study the issue that you have a prOBlem with.

Second go to him and him alone. Matthey 18:15

If he is a real pastor then he will have no prOBlem discussing with you the difference of opinion. Whatever the case, use scripture and only scripture as your guide.

Third do all of this with a restoring/growing attitude. Don't accuse the pastor (1 Timothy 5:19) of doing wrong, rather have him show you with scripture why he believes what he believes.


Most importantly be in much prayer daily and be very patient. Way too many "church" decisions are made on the spur of the moment giving heed to the devil and lying spirits oftentimes. Never make a spiritual decision in the flesh. That's to say don't let feelings rule over discernment.


Keep these things in mind and keep a pure heart and God will lead you in what to do. Always remember that the only one you both will ever have to answer to is God himself. Hebrews 13:17 and Romans 14:11-12


I'm going through some of the same stuff you are right now. Praying for you for sure!!

Matthew 18 is if a brother hath SINNED against you then go to him.  Not If you pastor teaches something you disagree with.


Remember you, I, we have set our churches up so the pastor is the leader (not Biblical) and basically it is his church.


If the teaching is an out right false Doctrine there is no going to him alone it is ALL are to confront him ASAP and if he receives it ok if not.  You all know what is supposed to be done.


If he is teaching his Opinion he should have stated it as such.


For example I believe that certain babies and children under age will go to hell.  I don't agree that there will be no babies and children under age in hell.  But if the pastor says there will be no babies in hell I wont argue or even bring it up.  I read and understand 1Cor 7:10-14 differently than he 1Cor 78:10-14 ¶ And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:  But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.   But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.   And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.   For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.


If you remember when Paul taught and how they assembled and carried out their meetings and preaching our assemblies today are a far cry form that.

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He posts trash and someone points that out and THEY get rebuked?


The rebuke was not concerning doctrine, it was for the rudeness of the response. Do you really want this forum to devolve into a doctrinally-accurate bash fest? It's come close in the past. Let's just not start down that route again.

As far as doctrinal issues go, please just remember that the forum at large is not aware of everything the mods may be doing behind the scenes. Rest assured that we are not ignoring your concerns.

And you know, it would be really nice sometime to be able to do my jOB as mod without getting hassled for it. Just sayin'...
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Covenanter:  Are you saying that Lot was not saved?  If so, and I apologize if I misinterpreted your post, but I would have to disagree based on 2 Peter 2.


The whole chapter is about false prophets and teachers (having a form of Godliness) living among the truly Godly and their destruction thereof.


v 7 And delivered "just" Lot...


v 8 "For that "righteous" man (Lot) dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed (disturbed/troubled) his "righteous" soul from day to day with their (not his) unlawful deeds."


v 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly (Lot) out of temptations...


God destroyed the people who vexed him as an example to those false teachers who should come after and live ungodly even though they profess Godliness.

You are right. I do believe Lot was saved, and an example of God keeping a man in his integrity even when surrounded by wickedness. Rogers was preaching the call to godly living by believers. The point of citing that sermon was the specific teaching (that I & the Premier Radio presenters considered erroneous) was that Lot's evil lifestyle was a disgrace to grace, and an example of how a saved person can live an evil life & still be saved.


Such teaching is widespread, & can lead instead to the conclusion that a saved person can fall away & become lost. Modern evangelism methods, calling for a decision without repentance, & using an admission of guilt instead of repentance in the "salvation prayer" leads to spurious conversion, temporary reformation, & falling away. But that is NOT loss of salvation.


A right doctrine of salvation - heart-felt repentance for sin, a living faith in Jesus as Lord & Saviour, evidenced by the fruit of the Holy Spirit. joy & love in prayer, worship & fellowship, etc, will see a lifelong salvation.  


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The rebuke was not concerning doctrine, it was for the rudeness of the response. Do you really want this forum to devolve into a doctrinally-accurate bash fest? It's come close in the past. Let's just not start down that route again.

As far as doctrinal issues go, please just remember that the forum at large is not aware of everything the mods may be doing behind the scenes. Rest assured that we are not ignoring your concerns.

And you know, it would be really nice sometime to be able to do my jOB as mod without getting hassled for it. Just sayin'...

I find DaveW to be rude quite often in his responses, yet he is not always rebuked or rebuked enough. 


We must learn a little respectful decorum here or it just doesn't benefit anyone.

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As you can see on many many many threads here what it's like when a fellow minister disagrees with another minister how upset they become and how they dig in their heels. Now think what its like when someone lower on religion ladder disagrees, a whole leg dug in. Feel free to give him the last word if he disagrees with you, most ministers need that for their ego. 


I wonder if they left that topic off their web page to get visitors........

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I'm not sure if there is a disagreement yet. I asked him a question but he couldn't answer at that time and offered to get together with me. I have no intentions of arguing or debating, and I don't think he does either, but just get into scripture and compare our beliefs. I'm doing this before I decide to make a commitment to fellowship with or be a member of that church, especially since I bring my kids with me. I think it's important to know what their core beliefs are so I know exactly what I'm getting into. Whatever happens, I know God has my best interest at heart and he knows my intentions and desires. I believe he will work it out and place me where he wants me. There's gotta be a light at the end of this tunnel at some point.

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I would be looking for another church if I found out my pastor did not hold to the security of the believer.  People who go off into this kind of teaching are mixing in works as a qualifer for salvation,.  No further need for discussion with that pastor.  I would tell that pastor he is wrong, and there is nothing wrong with you telling him that.  He's not likely to budge and will be well prepared with a long list of twisted scripture passages to support his erroneous position.   Meeting with him is most likely a waste of time.

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I would be looking for another church if I found out my pastor did not hold to the security of the believer.  People who go off into this kind of teaching are mixing in works as a qualifer for salvation,.  No further need for discussion with that pastor.  I would tell that pastor he is wrong, and there is nothing wrong with you telling him that.  He's not likely to budge and will be well prepared with a long list of twisted scripture passages to support his erroneous position.   Meeting with him is most likely a waste of time.

I already made the appt.  Reason being, he wasn't able to discuss it at the time and I don't know what he believes yet.  That's why we're meeting.  But I will absolutely not go back if he doesn't believe in security because that just sets the tone for all sermons.

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I already made the appt.  Reason being, he wasn't able to discuss it at the time and I don't know what he believes yet.  That's why we're meeting.  But I will absolutely not go back if he doesn't believe in security because that just sets the tone for all sermons.


Good for you GS. Been some really good advice on here, which I've taken on board too (thanks!). I just want to add that, for all the pastor may not change his mind, the appointment isn't going to cost you anything and giving the pastor the opportunity to make his stance very clear is a gracious thing to do.

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Grace, Keep the appointment and don't fret about anything. Maybe God will use you to plant a seed in his life. This may be a transitional beginning for this pastor to accept the eternal aspect of salvation. If he converts his mind on this matter, then you've helped him to understand something that is most precious to everyone that believes.


I have sat through one of these meetings before. The pastor I talked to believes that he is saved eternally but stated that if someone just flat out quit believing in God or Jesus that he would be lost and go to hell. It sounds good in theory BUT if you truly believed and understand who Jesus is then you cannot go to hell if you wanted to.


The plan that Jesus Christ set before us is EXCLUSIVE. One way in and no way out. By the way, Satan cannot say that if you believe in me then you can come to where I am also. What Satan thinks about ANYTHING don't matter.

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If I was lying in my last statement then it is wrong to mention any name.  However I am not lying and it is seen in some of his responses in the "how old is the earth" thread.


I was so offended at his replies I just stopped reading them all together.


here a mod is speaking about people being rude and rebuking them but I have not seen anyone rebuke this person for being rude in responses to my across the board with impunity and likes by the mods as well.

Edited by AVBibleBeliever
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So I had the meeting. I'm very pleased with the spirit of the meeting being fellowship-like and coming together to share our beliefs, backgrounds and understanding of scripture, sharing our faith and experiences and getting to know each other on a personal level. It wasn't about this is right or this is wrong. Afterward, they thanked me for inviting them and told me they enjoyed our time together and that it helps them with their own faith when others share their perspectives and enriches their own understanding, etc.

I found out he's not a pastor but he believes his calling is to evangelize and they are currently looking for someone to be an elder of their assembly.

This is what he believes in a nutshell about eternal security. He believes God is always faithful even when we are not but God allows us to choose if we want to continue in the faith. If we choose to walk away from the faith, we are no longer trusting in God's grace, since it is by grace through faith that we are saved, therefore, that person can fall away by their own choice by no longer believing and trusting in God. It is not God taking away salvation, but our choice, even after once we believed, to deny grace by walking away from the faith. Does that make sense?

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The biggest prOBlem with the idea that one can choose to stop believing and walk away, is that

it makes Jesus a liar,
" shall not come into condemnation"

And God's Word a lie
(Above) and "sealed until the day of redemption of the purchased possession"

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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SFIC: How do we reconcile scriptures referring to apostasy? Isn't the definition to renounce and turn away from a belief? If we turn away, it is not God turning from us and breaking promises but us choosing to turn from him. He doesn't force us but gives us free will. Eternal security is secure as long as we don't turn away from faith. Without faith there is no longer grace. If we receive grace through faith, where is grace when there is no longer faith? Isn't apostasy basically blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is the unpardonable sin? Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is rejection of salvation. It is the only unforgivable sin. You can't have salvation if you reject it, even if you once believed.

For example, the children in the wilderness. Those people acted out in faith when they walked through the red sea. They partook of the daily manna, etc. but then turned away from God, turned to idols and eventually were destroyed.

(Paraphrasing) Another example is when Jesus was preaching about we shall drink his blood and eat his flesh, many who were following could not accept this teaching, not even the apostles because Jesus asked them will you turn away too? Some chose to stop following while the apostles continued. See the difference? You can choose to continue walking in faith or choose to walk away from it.

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Jesus said those who believe would not come into condemnation. 

I have to trust that.  I also know that He said that He would send the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) and that the Comforter would what?

Guide us into all truth.

Now the enigma... How does one who is guided into all truth to stop believing?  How can one stop believing when the Spirit is shewing all things to the Believer that Jesus is giving Him to give to the Believer.

I say it is an impossibility for one to stop believing once one is saved.

If they are able to walk away and stop believing, they never truly believed in the first place.  They received Word on stony ground and did not allow it to change their heart and mind. 

And hence that person falling into apostasy.  A true child of God will not fall into apostasy.

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Question:  What is the "purchased possession" 
Answer  :  The man who has trusted Christ

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Question:  Who is the possessor? 
Answer  :  God

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Question:  Can I break the seal of Ephesians 1:13?
Answer  :  Not without making God's Word a lie

Question:  Will God break the seal if I fall at any time?
Answer  :  Not without making His Word a lie

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Until the day of redemption of the purchased possession assures us that the seal is secure.  It cannot be broken by you, me, angels, demons, principalities, powers, spiritual wickedness in high places, etc., ... not even by God Himslef until the day of redemption.

our Salvation is sure and secure.


Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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yes. I agree with that but the key word, as you mentioned is "believe." The promises are for those who believe and continue in belief. How can the Holy Spirit guide someone who does not believe?

You say if someone walks away and stops believing, they never believed in the first place. If they never believed, then how did they "stop believing." You can't stop believing if you never started.

If a child of God cannot fall into apostasy, why are we warned against it? Why are there scriptures to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith and let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall?

I absolutely believe in the security of the believer, but as said before, the key word is "believe."

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One can have a "superficial" belief, i.e., that believe "in" the Son of God; that He lived, was crucified, was buried and rose again.

But while they believe in His existence, they fail to believe "on" Him.  They never truly trust Him for their Salvation.

If a Believer can stop believing and lose his Salvation, then His "security" was never truly "secure".  He has proven God to be weaker than He, for Jesus said no man can pluck the Believer out of God's hand.  That would include the Believer too, since he falls into the 'man' category.

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Here is a study for you, GS.   It is from the Way of Life Encyclopedia:

Way of Life Encyclopedia

Eternal security is the Bible confidence that every born again believer has perfect, complete, eternal salvation in Jesus Christ. As soon as a sinner receives Christ, he possesses full, unending salvation. To have Christ is to have a secure position before God (1Jo 5:10-13). Though the Bible does not use the term "security" to describe the believer's relationship in Christ, it leaves no doubt that the child of God is eternally safe in Christ. Eternal security refers only to those who are born again through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. It does not refer to hypocrites or to those who are merely dabbling in the things of Christ. Those who permanently fall away have never been born again.

Eternal security is denied by many Christian groups, particularly most Pentecostals and many Charismatics. For example, the doctrinal statement of the Assemblies of God, article 8, section 1, states: "The General Council of the Assemblies of God disapproves of the unconditional security position which holds that it is impossible for a person once saved to be lost."

How We Can Be Sure True Christians Are Eternally Secure

1. Because of the terms used to describe salvation. "eternal life" (Joh 3:16; 1Jo 5:11); "full assurance" (Heb 6:11; Col 2:2); "strong consolation" (Heb 6:18); "hope ... sure and stedfast" (Heb 6:19).

2. Because of what we are. All of the following are spoken of in the present tense; this is the present condition of each true believer (1) Forgiven (Ro 4:7; 1Jo 2:12). (2) Justified (Ro 5:1,9; Tit 3:7) (4) Reconciled (Ro 5:10). (3) Risen with Christ (Ro 6:3-6; Col 3:1-2). (4) A child of God forever (Ro 8:15; Ga 4:4-7; 1Jo 3:1). (5) Sanctified in Christ (1Co 1:2). (6) New creation (2Co 5:17). (7) Accepted in the beloved (Eph 1:6). (7) Saved (Eph 2:8-9; 2Ti 1:9). (9) Light in the Lord (Eph 5:8). (10) Made fit for Heaven (Col 1:12). (11) Complete in Him (Col 2:10). (12) Citizens of Heaven (Php 3:20). (13) Children of light (1Th 5:5). (14) Elect (1Pe 1:2). (15) Born again (1Pe 1:2,23). (16) Sanctified once for all (Heb 10:10). (17) Perfected forever (Heb 10:14). (18) Passed from death unto life (1Jo 3:14).

3. Because of where we are. (1) In God's family (Ga 3:26; 1Jo 3:2). (2) Brought near (Eph 2:13). (3) In the heavenlies with Christ (Eph 2:5-6). (4) Translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13).

4. Because of what we have. (1) Eternal life (Joh 3:16). (2) Peace with God (Ro 5:1). (3) An Intercessor in Heaven (Ro 8:34). (4) All spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3). (5) Forgiveness of sins (Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; 2:13). (6) Sealing of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:12-14). (7) Access to God (Eph 2:18). (8) Everlasting consolation (2Th 2:16). (9) Eternal glory (2Ti 2:10). (10) Eternal redemption (Heb 9:12). (11) Mercy (1Pe 2:10). (12) An Advocate with the Father (1Jo 2:1-2).

5. Because of what is past. (1) Condemnation (Joh 5:24). (2) The law of sin and death (Ro 8:2). (3) Death and wrath (Col 3:3; Ro 6:11; 1Th 5:9). (4) Night and darkness (1Th 5:5).

6. Because of our promises.

(1) Never perish (Joh 10:27-28).
(2) Shall never die (Joh 11:26).
(3) The glory of God (Ro 5:2). This speaks of Christ's kingdom glory.
(4) Shall be saved from wrath (Ro 5:9).
(5) Glorious liberty of the children of God (Ro 8:21).
(6) Redemption of the body (Ro 8:23-24; Php 3:21).
(7) Predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ (Ro 8:28-29).
(8) Cannot be separated from God's love (Ro 8:31-39).
(9) God shall confirm you unto the end (1Co 1:8).
(10) He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Php 1:6).
(11) Shall appear with Christ in glory (Col 3:3-4).
(12) Delivered from the wrath to come (1Th 1:10).
(13) Not appointed to wrath but to salvation (1Th 5:9).
(14) Eternal inheritance (Heb 9:15). (15) Incorruptible inheritance (1Pe 1:4).


Accepted in the beloved (Eph 1:6)

Born of God (1Jo 5:1)

Crucified with Christ (Ga 2:20)

Delivered from the power of darkness (Col 1:13)

Enriched in everything in Him (1Co 1:5)

Forgiven for Christ's sake (Eph 4:32)

Grounded in love (Eph 3:17)

Hid with Christ (Col 3:3)

Instructed in the way of the Lord (Ac 18:25)

Justified by His grace (Tit 3:7)

Kept by the power of God (1Pe 1:5)

Led by the Spirit of God (Ro 8:14)

Made nigh by the Spirit of God (Ro 8:14)

Nourished in the words of faith (1Ti 4:6)

Ordained to eternal life (Ac 13:48)

Perfected forever (Heb 10:14)

Quickened together with Christ (Eph 2:5)

Redeemed from the curse of the law (Ga 3:13)

Sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13)

Translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13)

Unreproveable in His sight (Col 1:22)

Victorious through our Lord Jesus Christ (1Co 15:57)

Washed from our sins in his own blood (Re 1:5)

Yearned over by the Holy Spirit (Ro 8:26)

Zealous of good works (Tit 2:14)

How Do We Know These Blessings Cannot Be Lost?

1. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the nature of salvation:

(1) Salvation is eternal (Joh 3:16,36).
(2) Salvation is a present possession (Ro 5; 1Pe 2:24-25).
(3) Salvation is by imputation and substitution (2Co 5:17; Ga 2:20; Heb 9:10; Ro 3:24).
(4) Salvation is positional (Eph 1:3 - "in Christ"; Ro 6:7; Col 2:10; 3:1-4,12).
(5) Salvation is not of human merit; it is a free gift of grace which cannot be mixed with works (Eph 2:8-9; Tit 3:3-7; Ro 3:19-28; 4:4-5; 11:6).

2. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the results of salvation:
(1) Eternal life (Joh 3:16).
(2) Justification (Ro 5:1; 3:19-28).
(3) Peace with God (Ro 5:1).
(4) Sure possession of future glory (Ro 5:2; Col 3:1-4).
(5) Salvation from future wrath (Ro 5:9).
(6) Raised up with Christ (Ro 6).
(7) Blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ (Eph 1:3).
(8) Sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30).
(9) Passed from darkness to light (Col 1:12-14).

3. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the teaching of election: Election does not destroy human responsibility (2Th 2:10-13; Ac 13:46,48), but election does promise security for the believer (Ro 8:28-39; Eph 1; 1Pe 1:2-7).

4. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because lack of good works involves loss of rewards and fruitfulness, not loss of one's eternal relationship with Christ (1Co 3:15; Tit 3:14; 2Jo 1:8).

5. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the believer's union with Christ. The believing sinner is placed "in Christ" and stands or falls with Him (Col 1:14; Eph 1:1-3 - "in Christ" mentioned 25 times; Heb 9:10; 1Pe 1:18-23; 2:6,24-25).

Does Eternal Security Mean Anyone Who Professes Christ Is Saved, Regardless of Whether They Give Evidence of Genuine Faith?

1. No, salvation demands repentance (Lu 13:3-5; Ac 2:38-42; 17:30-31). Repentance means a change of mind resulting in a change of life (2Co 7:8-11). The person who has never changed his mind about God, sin, Christ, the Bible, etc., and who has never evidenced this changed mind with a changed life, has never repented and has never been saved. The Thessalonian believers exemplify biblical repentance. They "turned to God from idols, to serve the living and true God" (1Th 1:9-10).

2. No, salvation requires the new birth, and the new birth always changes a man's life (2Co 5:17-21; Mt 18:3-4; Joh 3:1-18; 1Jo 3:10; 3Jo 1:11).

3. No, salvation is evidenced by perseverance (Joh 10:27-28; Col 1:21-23; Heb 3:12-14; 10:38-39; 1Jo 2:19; 3:3). According to these Scriptures, the one who is truly born again will persevere in Christ; or it could be better stated that Christ will persevere in him!

4. No, saving faith always produces works (Eph 2:8-10; Heb 11:4,7-8; Jas 2:14-26). If one claims to have faith in Christ, but his life does not reflect the works of Christ, that one does not have biblical faith. A fruitless profession of fruit cannot lay claim to God's promises of eternal security.

Does Eternal Security Cause People to Live Carelessly?

Eternal security does not cause people to live carelessly. The very opposite is true. The Bible teaches that the grace of God actually motivates believers to serve God with a thankful heart (1Jo 4:19; Ro 2:4; Eph 3:14-19; Tit 2:11-12). The more a believer understands the unfathomable love God has for him in Christ, the more he wants to please God.

Who Has Eternal Security?

It is important to further emphasize the fact that the doctrine of eternal security does not promise safety for anyone who merely professes Christ. In the following study we see that the Bible connects eternal security only with the true believer, the one who has been born again, and differentiates him with the mere professor. Who has eternal security -

(1) Those who continue in the word (Joh 8:31-32).
(2) Those who follow Christ (Joh 10:27-28).
(3) Those who bring forth fruit (Joh 15:2; Lu 3:9).
(4) Those who are led by the Spirit of God (Ro 8:14-15).
(5) Those who have been born again (2Co 5:17; Eph 2:10; Ga 6:15).
(6) Those who are sanctified from an unrighteous way of life (1Co 6:9-11).
(7) Those who have demonstrated their election (1Th 1:4-10).
(8) Those who depart from iniquity (2Ti 2:19).
(9) Those who maintain their confidence in Christ (Heb 3:14).
(10) Those who have an undivided, convinced faith (Heb 4:10-11).
(11) Those who evidence the "things that accompany salvation" (Heb 6:9-12).
(12) Those who are looking for Christ's return (Heb 9:28).
(13) Those who remain patient and steadfast in tribulations (Heb 10:35-39).
(14) Those who are in the truth and continue in the truth (1Jo 2:19-21; 2Jo 1:1-2).
(15) Those who are purifying themselves (1Jo 3:1-3).
(16) Those who love the brethren (1Jo 3:14).

Who Does Not Have Eternal Security?

(1) Those who profess but do not repent (Lu 3:7-14; Ac 26:20).
(2) Those who have mere intellectual assent (Joh 2:23-25; Jas 2:17-20).
(3) Those who have self-willed faith, only believing what they want to believe rather than the testimony of the Scriptures (Joh 6:60-66).
(4) Those who have religious zeal apart from the gospel (Ro 10:1-4).

If the DisOBedient Christian Does Not Lose His Salvation, What Does Happen to Him?

(1) The sinning Christian is out of fellowship with the Lord and his people (1Jo 1:3-7).
(2) The sinning Christian is helped and loved by the Lord Jesus Christ (1Jo 2:1-2).
(3) The sinning Christian is chastened by the Father (Heb 12:5-11).
(4) The sinning Christian loses irreplaceable opportunities for service and fruit (Eph 5:14-17; Mt 9:36-38; 1Th 5:4-10). The sinning Christian can be forgiven, but he cannot regain the lost opportunities and the hurt he has caused by his sin.
(5) The sinning Christian will suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ (1Co 3:11-15; 2Co 5:10; 1Ti 6:17-19; 1Jo 2:28).


Some think the book of Hebrews poses unanswerable prOBlems for the doctrine of eternal security, but the opposite is true. In the following ways the book of Hebrews strongly affirms this Bible doctrine:

1. Christ's Purging promises security (Heb 1:3).

2. Christ's Rest promises security (Heb 4:10).

3. Christ's Hope promises security (Heb 6:17-19).

4. Christ's High Priesthood promises security (Heb 7:25-26).

5. Christ's Blood promises security (Heb 9:12,26; 10:14). (1) We have eternal redemption through His blood (Heb 9:21). (2) Sin is put away through His blood (Heb 9:26). (3) We are sanctified once for all through His blood (Heb 10:10). (4) We are perfected forever through His blood (Heb 10:14).

6. Christ's Covenant promises security (Heb 8:12; 10:16-19).

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Study out those promises and you will see why it is impossible for us to lose our Salvation.

You may want to copy all those references into a Word document.  They may get removed due to bandwidth usage, I don't know.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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Jesus is the Good Shepherd and He cares for the sheep.  If one wanders, He does not say, "Well, I lost one."  No, like any good shepherd, He goes looking for the sheep and brings it back to the fold.  It may have strayed, but it never ceased being His.

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Do you believe we have free will? If we have free will to believe then we also have free will to choose unbelief.

Help me to reconcile scriptures that say anyone who denies me I will deny before the Father.

From Way of Life Encyclopedia:

Eternal Security and PrOBlem Passages

The following introductory comments offer a background for dealing with the "prOBlem passages."

First, the few passages which present apparent prOBlems with the doctrine of eternal security must be interpreted carefully in light of the context. It is a fact that the New Testament promises eternal security to the true believer. I do not believe God would have given so much plain and simple teaching on the eternal nature of salvation only to overthrow it with a couple of relatively OBscure passages. We interpret the less clear passages in light of those which are crystal clear. This is a working principle which I believe is honoring to the Word of God, and it is the proper way to handle it. False teachers, on the other hand, delight in using the more OBscure portions of Scripture to overthrow the plain. To interpret the following passages as saying that a born again child of God can lose his salvation flies in the face of hundreds of clear passages of Scripture. When the context of a Bible passage is plainly directed to the subject of salvation, there is never a question about the security of the believer.

Second, a key prOBlem in this matter is reading the doctrine of insecurity into various passages. This is called isogesis (reading into the Scriptures), as contrasted with the proper method of exegesis (interpreting out of the Scriptures). Most passages which are put forth to support the idea that salvation can be lost have absolutely nothing to do with such a thing if approached without preconceived ideas.

Third, many who teach eternal security do so in an unbiblical manner. To fail to emphasize the necessity of repentance, to fail to warn the casual "professor" that profession is not the same as possession, to comfort and impart security to a professor who has no evidence of regeneration is to do injustice to the biblical doctrine of

eternal security. The Bible frequently warns about the possibility of appearing to be saved while actually being lost, about coming close to salvation without actually being saved. Those of us who teach eternal security must not ignore the solemn charges of the Word of God such as Joh 8:47 and 1Jo 3:10.

An example is the soul winner who leads an unbeliever in a sinner's prayer after a short presentation of the "Roman's Road," then gives him assurance right then and there, before there has been any evidence that the person is genuinely born again.

Now to some of the passages most frequently used to undermine eternal security:

Mt 7:21. This has nothing to do with a believer losing his salvation. To do the will of the Father is certainly not the way to Heaven. It is the evidence of genuine faith in Christ; it is the proof of regeneration.

Mt 8:11-12. The "children of the kingdom" here are the Jews in the nation Israel. One of the key teachings of the Gospels is the rejection of Jesus Christ by His own people, the Jews. Time and again Christ warns and rebukes the Jews and their leaders, but most of them reject him. The first half of Matthew, in particular, documents this fearful situation.

Mt 25:1-13. The parable of the ten virgins is given in the context of Christ's coming and of the establishment of the kingdom of God in Israel (see Mt 25:31-34). The foolish virgins are not true believers but are unbelievers who knew about Christ's return but did not act on it. (1) They didn't have any oil (v. 3,4), but the oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit (Ro 8:9). (2) They wait until it is too late to OBtain salvation (v. 9; 2Co 6:2). In light of everything the New Testament promises to the child of God, the foolish virgins MUST be those who are unsaved. To interpret this otherwise is to throw multitudes of clear Scriptures into confusion.

Mt 25:14-30. (1) The man's concept of the Lord shows that he is a lost man. He considered the Lord "an hard man" who reaped where He had not sown. It is OBvious that he did not know the blessed Lord Jesus Christ! The Lord is exactly the opposite of how this man described Him. He is gracious and merciful and patient and meek and lowly in heart; He gives us MUCH more than we deserve. The fact that this man is called a servant does not mean necessarily that he is saved. The Jews are called the Lord's servants, but they were not all saved (Isa 43:10). (2) The man's destiny also shows that he is a lost man. He is cast into outer darkness, which is a description of hell (2Pe 2:17; Jude 1:13). Nowhere in Scripture is a child of God said to be in outer darkness. The Bible says believers are children of light and are not of darkness (1Th 5:5). Further, the weeping and gnashing of teeth are associated with eternal damnation and Hell (Mt 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; Lu 13:28). It is not wise to establish doctrine upon parables. The parables have one central point, and if you try to push every detail of the parable you can create all sorts of doctrinal prOBlems.

Joh 15:6. This passage does not say that a true believer will be cast into Hell; it says that the person who proves not to be a true believer will be cast into Hell. Those who teach that this applies to a true believer read that interpretation into it. The rest of John's Gospel makes this matter very plain. Consider Joh 1:12-13; 3:14-18,36; 4:14; 5:25; 6:37,40,47; 10:27-30; 11:25; 17:2-3; 20:31. Whatever, therefore, the meaning of Joh 15:6 in reference to the child of God, it CANNOT mean that the true believer will be rejected and cast into Hell. That would make the promises of Jesus Christ to the believer into a lie. Christ is referring here to the difference between sincere and insincere, true and false believers. He mentions such a thing in other passages in John's Gospel. Consider Joh 2:23-25 and Joh 6:64. John 15 is a warning that the evidence of true faith in Christ is to bear fruit for His glory.

Ro 11:19-23. Consider the context: Paul is not addressing the subject of personal salvation. He is addressing the matter of the Jews and their place in the program of God. Paul is speaking in a general sense of Gentiles and of the Jewish nation. Today God has turned temporarily from the Jews and is calling a people for His name from among the Gentile nations. The day will come when God will again turn to the Jewish nation to fulfill His promises to them. Verses 24-26 make this plain. Paul is speaking in a general sense, not in a personal sense. A careful reading of this chapter illustrates this.

1Co 9:27. The context here is not Paul's salvation, but his Christian service. Paul was concerned that he would be castaway in the sense that he would be put on a shelf in this life or that his service would be rejected or disapproved at the judgment seat of Christ. The same Greek word is translated "rejected." Paul was not afraid that he would be lost. In the same epistle he taught that Christ preserves the believer (1:7-9). What he feared was falling short of God's high calling for his life. The context makes this plain. He is talking about running a race and winning a prize. To confuse this passage with salvation is to misunderstand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not a reward for faithful service. The Bible plainly states that salvation is by grace, and grace is the free, unmerited mercy of God (Eph 2:8-9). Anything that is merited or rewarded, is not grace (Ro 11:6). On the other hand, after we are saved by the marvelous grace of God, we are called to serve Jesus Christ. We are created in Christ Jesus "unto good works" (Eph 2:10). If a Christian is lazy and carnal, he will be chastened by the Lord (Heb 12:6-8), and if he does not respond, God will take him home (Ro 8:13; 1Co 11:30; 1Jo 5:16).

Php 2:12. This verse does not say that the child of God must work FOR or work UP his salvation; it says he must work OUT his salvation. These are very different things. To work up or to work for my salvation would mean that I have a part in my salvation and that unless I do my part, I will not be saved. On the other hand, to work out my salvation means God has given me eternal salvation as a free gift in Jesus Christ, and it is His will that I OBey Him, not in order to save myself or in order to help God save me, but BECAUSE I am already saved. Verse 13 makes this clear, that it is God who provides the complete salvation. OBedience, holy living is the evidence of salvation. The Christian life is a miracle of God that is wrought from within. The power of the Christian life is the indwelling Holy Spirit, but the Christian is not passive. He is to be controlled by the Spirit (Eph. 5:18), to be led by the Spirit (Ro 8:14), to walk after the Spirit (Ro 8:4; Ga 6:18), to mind the things of the Spirit (Ro 8:5).

Php 3:9-14. How do we know that verse 11 is not referring to gaining one's salvation through diligent effort? (1) The context is referring not to Paul's salvation, but to his calling. He endeavored to fulfill God's perfect will for his life. Verses 10 and 14 leave no question about the meaning of the passage. To divorce it from the context, claiming that Paul was unsure that he possessed eternal salvation, denies the plain teaching of Scripture and throws the Bible into contradictory confusion. (2) Paul said he was trying to earn a "prize" (Php 3:14), whereas salvation is a "gift" to be enjoyed (Eph 2:8-9). (3) We know that Paul was not stating in Php 3 that he was unsure he would be raised from the dead, because in this very epistle and elsewhere he emphasized the certainty of resurrection and the eternal security of the believer (Php 2:20-21; 1:6; 1Co 15:51-58). The Lord Jesus Christ promised resurrection to every believer (Joh 11:25-26). (4) Php 3:11 is explained in 1Ti 6:12 and 2Pe 1:10-11, which teach that we "lay hold on eternal life" and prepare an abundant entrance into Christ's eternal kingdom by our service for Christ in this world. It is speaking of rewards and crowns.

Jas 2:24. Roman Catholics, Cultists, and others who deny the Gospel of the Grace of Jesus Christ, love to run to Jas 2:24 to "prove" that salvation is not by Christ's grace alone through faith alone, but that works are necessary. Consider the following three OBservations:

First, context is crucial in understanding any Bible passage. To ignore context is to fill the Bible with contradictions. James was not addressing salvation; he was addressing the Christian life. Note verse 14 "my brethren..." He is contrasting dead faith with true biblical faith (verses 14-17). "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (verse 14). He is saying that true faith is evident by works. Paul, on the other hand, addresses salvation directly in the book of Romans. The sinner must trust exclusively in the grace of Jesus Christ for salvation. "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Ro 4:4-6). There is no contradiction if one considers the context of each statement. Paul is addressing the unsaved sinner's perspective. The sinner must trust Jesus Christ exclusively for salvation; he must reject his own filthy works (Isaiah 64:6) and all self-righteousness (Ro 9:30-33) and lean totally upon the Lord Jesus Christ, trusting wholly in His perfect and complete redemption. James, on the other hand, is addressing the Christian's perspective. The Christian claims to have faith in Jesus Christ. He is therefore to diligently serve God and to walk in His commandments. Those who live in rebellion and who ignore the Word of God demonstrate that they do not possess true saving faith, that they are deceiving themselves.

Second, James and Paul are addressing two different events in Abraham's life. Paul, in Ro 4:1-4, refers to Abraham's salvation which occurred early in his life and which is recorded in Ge 15:5-6. James, on the other hand, refers to Abraham's testing which occurred 20 years later (Jas 2:21-24; Ge 22:1-18). Abraham was saved by faith without works, but his salvation and his faith were EVIDENCED and DEMONSTRATED by his OBedience.

Third, James' teaching is no different from that of the other Apostles. They all taught that true faith produces works. Consider the classic passage in Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." This passage puts faith and works in their proper order. It is faith alone that connects us with the free salvation offered in Jesus Christ. This salvation is a gift. Our works have nothing to do with it, and cannot add to the completed salvation in Jesus Christ. Works, rather, follow after salvation and are the product of it, being created by God in the believing sinner. Consider also Tit 3:4-8; Heb 6:9; 10:39; 1Jo 3:6; 3Jo 1:11. This is exactly what James teaches. He says there are two kinds of faith: saving faith and false faith. The devils have faith but not saving faith (v. 19).

Some will counter that it is not important how one puts these things together. One man says works follow salvation; another says works are a part of salvation. What is the difference? The difference is ENORMOUS. It is the difference between Saved and Lost, between Heaven and Hell. If I think that my works and my righteousness and my OBedience and my law-keeping is a part of salvation, even a tiny part of salvation, I am denying the perfect sufficiency of Jesus Christ and of His Atonement. "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb 10:14). I cannot add one iota to this perfect salvation which is freely offered through Jesus Christ. "Being justified FREELY by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro 3:24). If works or church sacraments or law keeping are required in any sense whatsoever for salvation, it is not FREE and the Bible is a lie. To add anything to the gospel of the grace of Christ is to bring God's curse (Ga 1:6).

1Pe 1:9.

First, let us consider what this verse does not mean. It does not mean salvation is a process or that salvation is uncertain. The context overthrows such teaching. Verses 3-5 tells us that the believer's salvation is settled and sure. The believer is born again, has a lively hope, possesses an inheritance that is already reserved in heaven, and is kept by God's power. When the Bible speaks of the believer's hope, it uses the term differently than the way hope is commonly used today. The believer's hope has no element of uncertainty. In Heb 6:18-19 it is described as "a strong consolation" and "an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast." The reason the believer has such confidence and security is that his salvation is completely dependent upon Jesus Christ and has nothing to do with his own works. What does the verse mean, then? Two of its wonderful teachings are these: (1) Salvation has evidence (Heb 10:38-39). True faith works. Salvation is by grace alone through faith in Christ without works (Eph 2:8-9), but salvation also produces the fruit of good works (Eph 2:10). (2) Salvation has different aspects. There is a past, present, and future aspect to salvation. The believer has been saved from the eternal consequences of sin; he is being saved from the power of sin in this earthly existence; and in his future heavenly home he will have been saved from the very presence of sin. When 1 Peter 1:19 says the believer will receive salvation as the end product of his faith, this is what it is referring to. It does not imply that his salvation is uncertain until the end.

1Pe 4:18. The righteous are scarcely saved in the sense that salvation is impossible apart from God's free gift through Jesus Christ. If judged by our earthly lives, if judged by our works, we will all perish. Even the righteous lives of born again Christians fall far short of the glory of Christ and the holiness God requires of us. Our only hope is the righteousness of Christ that is offered to us as a free, unmerited gift (2Co 5:21). Even the righteousness of the religious Pharisees was insufficient (Mt 5:20). God requires perfect OBedience to His law, and no man can attain to that. Thus salvation must be a gift of God's righteousness provided through Jesus Christ.

2Pe 2:20-22. Though this passage is often used to prove that eternal security is not true, it actually says nothing about losing one's salvation. The context is false teachers who promote damnable heresies and deny the Lord (v. 1). It should be OBvious that it is not saved men who are the focus on this passage, but hypocrites and deceivers. Any interpretation which says these are saved men who lose their salvation flies in the face of the context. The fact that "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning" and "it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness" does not imply that they were saved and now are lost. They were dogs and pigs who were unchanged (v. 22). The fact that they return to their wickedness proves that they were never regenerate. When the context is taken into account, there really is no prOBlem in this passage in regard to the doctrine of eternal security.

Heb 6:4-6. This passage refers to false believers. How do we know? (1) They tasted but they did not drink and eat (contrast Joh 6:54). (2) Those who fall away cannot be saved again. This shows the error of those who teach that a believer can lose his salvation; because invariably they exhort those who allegedly lose their salvation to return to Christ. (3) The difference between the true believer and the false is the fruit and the evidence (v. 7,8). (4) Paul plainly states that he is not referring to true believers (v. 9).

Heb 10:26-29. The willful sin in verse 26 refers not to sin in general, but to one particular sin which is described in the rest of the passage. The Bible plainly teaches us that Christians do sin after they are saved (1Jo 1:8-10; 2:1-2). There is no sinless perfection in the Christian life. Our perfection and righteousness is in Jesus Christ positionally (1Co 1:30; 2Co 5:21). The sin for which there is no forgiveness is the sin of "counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing." This means to deny that salvation is by Christ's blood and grace alone. In the immediate context to which the book of Hebrews was addressed, it refers to the Jews who professed confidence in Christ; but, because of pressure and persecution, returned to their dead religion and thus gave up confidence in Christ. False religion, both then and now, attempts either to replace Christ's salvation with a manmade system, or to add to Christ's salvation a manmade system. Catholicism is an example of the latter. It preaches Christ, but it intermingles its own sacraments and priesthood and sainthood with the grace of Christ. This is a false gospel which rOBs Christ of His glory as the sole Saviour and Mediator. If Christ is not Saviour wholly and exclusively, He is not Saviour at all. If grace is intermingled in any sense with works, the Gospel is perverted, and there is no salvation in a perverted gospel (Ro 11:6; Ga 1:6-9).

Heb 12:15-17. To fail of the grace of God does not mean to lose one's salvation; it means to fall short of being saved. The context makes this plain, as the example given is that of Esau. He was not a believer, though he was born into a believing family. He was a man of the world and cared nothing about the things of God. He thought a bowl of soup was more valuable that his spiritual birthright as the son of Isaac.

How the Book of Hebrews Teaches Eternal Security?

Conclusion to the Lessons on Eternal Security

I do not profess to be able to answer every question that can be raised on this subject. No man can. Eternal security, though, is a Bible doctrine that has satisfied and blessed my heart for 29 years. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Joh 3:16).

The Bible plainly teaches that those who are truly born again will evidence their salvation and will continue on with the Lord (Joh 10:27-28; 1Co 15:1-2; Col 1:21-23; Heb 6:4-9; 10:38; 1Jo 3:3). The one who permanently falls away demonstrates that he did not belong to the Lord in the first place (Heb 12:5-8). If a professing Christian murders someone, it prOBably proves that he was not genuinely saved. Re 21:8 is similar to 1Jo 3:9. These passages are not talking about an act of sin but a way of life of sin. If these passages are referring to an act of sin, no one can be saved. It is OBvious from other passages that a Christian can commit any act of sin, including idolatry and adultery (1Jo 1:8-10). This is why we are often warned not to commit these evils (1Co 6:18; 10:6,14; 1; Joh 5:21). Salvation is to be placed into an entirely and eternally new position in Jesus Christ. The old flesh cannot be redeemed; it can only be condemned and crucified. Our new position in Christ is that our old man is dead and we rise to new life in Jesus Christ. The law can no longer condemn us. Study Romans 1-8 very carefully, for it holds the key to understanding salvation properly, as well as the proper place of sin and the law in the Christian's life. Salvation requires perfection, and the only perfection that we can ever have is that which we receive from Jesus Christ because of the Propitiation He purchased on Calvary. Even one sin will keep me out of Heaven, but, praise God, I do not have any sin in Christ. He has taken it all away forever.

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Not to say that the Way of Life Encyclopedia does not contain a lot of good information but it is not the Word of God.

Putting aside the promises to the believer, which I believe, the key words are still believe and faith. No belief, no faith, no grace.

Have you ever known anyone who has believed and no longer believe? I have. Just because they choose not to believe anymore does not mean their belief was not sincere.

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