When Were The Eleven Born Again?

[No Nicolaitans]

What I'm wrestling with is the OP...when were the disciples "BORN AGAIN". If we use that interchangeably with "when were they saved", then we have to determine when their faith came into being.

 

See, I'm entertaining the thought that they were saved at their call now; however, I keep running into verses like this that happened long after their call...

 

John 16:30-31
  30   Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
  31   Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

 

 

My mind is going to explode just thinking about this...

[DaveW]

Dave, how can there be a birth in the Spirit without the Spirit's presence?

 

Kitagrl, I don't know, WHEN was Abraham saved?

 

Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 

Joh 3:4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 

Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 

Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 

Joh 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 

 

The Lord is making a contrast - not teaching on the presence of the Holy Spirit - the contrast is that just as you need physical birth to be alive physically, you need spiritual birth to be alive spiritually.

 

You can introduce another concept to the argument if you like, but it only serves you to avoid the context.

 

Look at what the passage itself says without adding in your own questions about other things.

Your conclusions as to what this or that means is affecting your reading of the passage.

[beameup]

There is a difference between having the Holy Spirit "upon" you (O.T.), and being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit in the N.T.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Uke, I have and still do meditate on these.  I do believe that salvation is by faith.  However I also see in scriptures that faith, works and grace are all at work in the salvation of men no matter what age they are in but these three attributes of salvation are applied in a different manner according to the message and age men are in.

 

Here is what Paul said, 1Cor 15:3, 4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

And when I compare it to Acts I can't help but see something different Peter tells of the death burial and resurrection but nowhere says Jesus Died for our sins. 

 

Acts 2:22-36 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:  Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.   For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:  Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.   Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.   Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.   Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.   This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.   Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.   For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool.   Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

 

Acts 10:34-43 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:  But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.   The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)  That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;  How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.   And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:  Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;  Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.   And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.   To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.  One thing you know is that the he who believeth on him SHALL receive the REMISSION of sins.  It means their sins weren't forgiven the moment they believed but was set for a certain time still in the future.

 

In Acts 8 this message was preached by Philip you will notice that nowhere in Philip's message does he say Christ dies for the sins of all men.  the closest it get to it is recorded in Isaiah that in his humiliation judgement was taken away but the context speaks of the judgement of Israel as a nation.  Here in the following verse you see what the Eunuch confesses in believing and it was not that Christ died for his sins or that he was his saviour, but that Christ was the son of God.  Again no blood shed for the forgiveness of sins.

 

Acts 8:29-37 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.   And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?   And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.   The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:  In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.   And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?   Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.   And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?   And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

Peter is the the last one in the Bible to preach this message before the Church Age was initiated with the calling of Paul and the gospel of Grace was given unto him for all men.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Old Testament saint's faith was counted for righteousness...just as our faith is today. 

 

The Holy Spirit is a gift to the Church.

 

What I'm wrestling with is the OP...when were the disciples "BORN AGAIN". If we use that interchangeably with "when were they saved", then we have to determine when their faith came into being.

 

Abraham was saved when he believed and put his faith in God's word...just as we do today. He heard God's word, believed it, left his old life behind (repented) and turned to following God. When we are saved, we do the same.

 

Romans 4:9
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

 

My mind is going to explode just thinking about this...

But that righteousness was accompanied by the works of the law (the Bible says that even Abraham kept God's Ways which is another word for God's words, law, commandments, judgements, precepts, statutes, ordinances etc, as seen in Psalm 119) and when they face judgement then they will receive the full reward of their faith salvation of their soul.

 

Gen 18:18, 19 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?   For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

[No Nicolaitans]

But that righteousness was accompanied by the works of the law (the Bible says that even Abraham kept God's Ways which is another word for God's laws) and when they face judgement then they will receive the full reward of their faith salvation of their soul.

 

Gen 18:18, 19 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?   For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

 

AV...there is nothing in that about the salvation of Abraham. God would reward Abraham's descendants PHYSICALLY because Abraham OBeyed God...that's it; nothing more.

 

Again, God promised physical blessings because of Abraham's OBedience...

 

Genesis 26:1-5
  1   And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
  2   And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
  3   Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
  4   And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
  5   Because that Abraham OBeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

Physical blessings...not salvation.

 

I don't want to offend you, but this is admonition #1...

[AVBibleBeliever]

well you are offending and the word of God says, Woe to him through whom offenses come.

[No Nicolaitans]

well you are offending and the word of God says, Woe to him through whom offenses come.

 

No, the word of God actually says...

 

...but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! (Matthew 18:7)

[AVBibleBeliever]

BTW, I quoted that verses in Gen 18 to show Abraham knew the ways/laws/statues of God not that he was saved. Great that you brought up the other which proves my point.  ALL his life he kept God's word by faith and when He died he received the grace of God, his salvation.

[MountainChristian]

The Holy Spirit had to be given for anyone to be born again. 

 

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them (externally), and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

(Like how the Holy Spirit came upon them in the Old Testament)

 

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled (internally) with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

TV preachers and teachers who are using the term "saved" to confuse christians when it comes to the lives of the disciples. They were saved Jesus said so in John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. But they wasn't born again, that happened when Grace took over for law. The next time you hear a preacher try to point out the difference in Peter's and Paul's preaching its because Peter was saved then born again. Paul was born again the way we are today. Later in Peter's life when he wrote his letters we can see a change in his preaching/teaching. 

[Ukulelemike]

BTW, I quoted that verses in Gen 18 to show Abraham knew the ways/laws/statues of God not that he was saved. Great that you brought up the other which proves my point.  ALL his life he kept God's word by faith and when He died he received the grace of God, his salvation.

Except that one time he followed his wife and created the foundation of the entire Islamic nations. I think his faith lagged a bit then.

[Ukulelemike]

AV...there is nothing in that about the salvation of Abraham. God would reward Abraham's descendants PHYSICALLY because Abraham OBeyed God...that's it; nothing more.

 

Again, God promised physical blessings because of Abraham's OBedience...

 

Genesis 26:1-5
  1   And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
  2   And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
  3   Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
  4   And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
  5   Because that Abraham OBeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

Physical blessings...not salvation.

 

I don't want to offend you, but this is admonition #1...

You keep doing these admonitions-are you suggesting he is a heretic?

[No Nicolaitans]

You keep doing these admonitions-are you suggesting he is a heretic?

 

No Uke, I'm not suggesting anything. Don't worry though, because I have ceased with the admonitions.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Except that one time he followed his wife and created the foundation of the entire Islamic nations. I think his faith lagged a bit then.

And when was not being truthful about Sarah being his wife.

 

But I am sure we are all guilty of lagging in faith once in a while, wouldn't you say?

 

So do you think he is not saved?

 

He definitely was not born again.

 

You ever notice that Paul NEVER used the term Born Again about any member of the church, and in all uses of it it is concerning Israel?

 

The closest Paul gets to it is when he said,  Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.

[heartstrings]

The ''Lamb slain from the foundation of the world'' is the ''Great I Am'', the ''Alpha and Omega'', ''The Word''. The Bible says .......

 

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12

 

They were calling on his name way back in Genesis 4 when ''Enos'' was born.

No....not that Enos.........

Men were already being called ''sons of God'' back in Genesis 6 and again in JOB chapters 1 and 2.

I believe the disciples, at least some of them, could have been saved by grace through faith already before physically meeting Jesus; Joseph was already a "Just man", Mary already had faith, so did Elizabeth, and the old Priest (can't recall his name at the moment) Nathaniel, the ''Israelite with no guile'', was expecting him and even called him ''the son of God at first meeting.