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Original Sin/the Sin Nature


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Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death came upon all men when Adam introduced sin into the world - because of this all men have sinned.
That is Biblically plain - all men are sinners because Adam sinned, and we are his children.

However;
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Notice that His Son was made "of a woman".
The Virgin birth is essential because the Bible indicates that the sin nature is passed through the man - part of God's defined authority structure.
Jesus had no earthly father and therefore no inherent sin nature.

Sin was neither within Him, nor did He sin of Himself.

Shoots a hole in their misrepresentation of scripture doesn't it. Thanks Dave.

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This is how I understand it:
 
There was sin in the world BEFORE Adam.
How do I know? Because the "Serpent" was on the world and he was already a liar, a false teacher, a thief and a murderer. Death passed upon men because a LAW was given and they disOBeyed, namely "Thou shalt not EAT" of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  When Adam disOBeyed that law, death passed upon him. Read it for yourself......
Romans 5
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
 
We are "shapen in iniquity"
 
Psalmn51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
 
We are all sinners.....
 
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 
But we do not "die" until we sin for the first time...
 
 Romans 7: 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
 
In conclusion, we are not responsible for ADAM's sin": we are responsible for our own.
 
Psalm 51:5 is describing David's mother, not David. Men do no conceive, only women conceive. This scripture says David was conceived in sin. There are several theories on this. 
 
It is known that David had two sisters Zeruiah and Abagail whose father was Nahash the Ammonite. So David's mother had relations with a non-Jew before David was born which was absolutely taboo and forbidden. 
 
1 Chr 2:15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh:
16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three.
 
2 Sam 17:25 And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.
 
David did not have the same mother as his seven older brothers. His mother was prOBably Jesse's second wife. Jesse and his seven sons treated David very poorly, prOBably because of his mother. When the prophet Samuel held a feast and asked to see all of Jesse's sons, TWICE Jesse failed to present David. The other seven sons were all invited, but David had to keep the sheep. Only when Samuel insisted did Jesse finally present David, whom Samuel chose. We are also told in this story that David's brothers were tall and handsome, while David was short and not handsome.
 
1 Sam 16:5 And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice. And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice.
6 And it came to pass, when they were come, that he looked on Eliab, and said, Surely the LORD'S anointed is before him.
7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
8 Then Jesse called Abinadab, and made him pass before Samuel. And he said, Neither hath the LORD chosen this.
9 Then Jesse made Shammah to pass by. And he said, Neither hath the LORD chosen this.
10 Again, Jesse made seven of his sons to pass before Samuel. And Samuel said unto Jesse, The LORD hath not chosen these.
11 And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.
12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.
13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
 
David was the black sheep of his family, prOBably because of his mother. In Psalm 51 David is prOBably saying he was the "dog" his father and brothers had always told him he was. 
 
If David was saying he was born a sinner, that would hardly be a confession of sin. 
 
 

 

From my Pastor in response to your arugmentation on Psalm 51:

 

When interpreting scripture there are rules we follow.  We call them the literal, grammatical, historical. We follow these set of rules before we apply the rule of comparing scripture with scripture.  Literal means we first study the literal statements in the context and always take the text literally unless there is literal reason to take it figuratively.  Grammatical means we study the grammatical structure of sentences in the English and underlying language for the meaning of words and the way they are used.  Historical means we use the Bible to examine what is going on historically to contribute to the meaning of the text.

Ps 51 literally in its context is David's confession of his sin of adultery with Bathsheba which sin he had been covering until Nathan pointed the finger and exposed him.  Verse five says, "Behold I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me."  In the context of confession this cannot be referring to any sin of his mother but to the extent of his own sin and its genesis.  The first statement about shapen is referring to his development in the womb and his sin nature developing as he physically develops and the second statement grammatically in Hebrew and English is referring to the origin of his sin nature being his conception in the womb.  Only women have conception and the sin nature is passed from the father at fertilization conception.  Theissen said, concerning the Biblicist theory of the origin of the soul and sin nature, "The traducian theory holds that the human race was immediately created in Adam, with respect to the soul as
 well as the body, and that both are propagated from him by natural generation...Numerous Scriptures intimate that we have derived our sinful nature by natural generation.  See for example JOB 14:4, 15:14, Ps 51:5, 58:3, John 3:6, Ep.2:3.  Genesis 46:26, we read of the "souls" that came out of JacOB's loins.  Acts 17:26, teaches that God hath made of one blood all nations.  This most naturally means taht they are descended from one pair and have one common human nature as to their whole constitution.  Gen 2:1-3 teaches that the work of creation was completed on the sixth day.  This could not be the case if God daily hourly and momentarily created souls."

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From my Pastor in response to your arugmentation on Psalm 51:

 

When interpreting scripture there are rules we follow.  We call them the literal, grammatical, historical. We follow these set of rules before we apply the rule of comparing scripture with scripture.  Literal means we first study the literal statements in the context and always take the text literally unless there is literal reason to take it figuratively.  Grammatical means we study the grammatical structure of sentences in the English and underlying language for the meaning of words and the way they are used.  Historical means we use the Bible to examine what is going on historically to contribute to the meaning of the text.

Ps 51 literally in its context is David's confession of his sin of adultery with Bathsheba which sin he had been covering until Nathan pointed the finger and exposed him.  Verse five says, "Behold I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me."  In the context of confession this cannot be referring to any sin of his mother but to the extent of his own sin and its genesis.  The first statement about shapen is referring to his development in the womb and his sin nature developing as he physically develops and the second statement grammatically in Hebrew and English is referring to the origin of his sin nature being his conception in the womb.  Only women have conception and the sin nature is passed from the father at fertilization conception.  Theissen said, concerning the Biblicist theory of the origin of the soul and sin nature, "The traducian theory holds that the human race was immediately created in Adam, with respect to the soul as
 well as the body, and that both are propagated from him by natural generation...Numerous Scriptures intimate that we have derived our sinful nature by natural generation.  See for example JOB 14:4, 15:14, Ps 51:5, 58:3, John 3:6, Ep.2:3.  Genesis 46:26, we read of the "souls" that came out of JacOB's loins.  Acts 17:26, teaches that God hath made of one blood all nations.  This most naturally means taht they are descended from one pair and have one common human nature as to their whole constitution.  Gen 2:1-3 teaches that the work of creation was completed on the sixth day.  This could not be the case if God daily hourly and momentarily created souls."

 

Well, I am sorry, men do not conceive, only women conceive, so Psa 51:5 is describing David's mother. It actually fits the context if you consider that David was the black sheep of his family and treated as an inferior by his own father and brothers. We know for a fact that David had two sisters whose father was Nahash the Ammonite, so David's mother had relations with a non-Jew which was strictly forbidden. We know that David looked very different from his brothers who were tall and handsome, while David was short, ruddy, and not attractive. Now there are all sorts of possibilities here, David could have been conceived out of wedlock, or Jesse might not have been David's biological father. Many a man has raised a son who was fathered by another man, even when his wife was married to him. It happens. 

 

I cannot say exactly what David is describing in Psa 51:5, but we know he was treated very poorly by his father and brothers. When Samuel called Jesse to bring his sons to a feast, twice Jesse presented all his older sons, but failed to bring David forward. Only when Samuel persisted did Jesse admit he had one other son, who had been left out in the field tending the sheep. Samuel insisted Jesse present David, and as we all know he was the person God chose to be king. 

 

But Jesse was ashamed of David. He did not present him when he was asked twice. So it is clear David was treated very poorly by his family, and it seems that his mother was to blame for this. 

 

I believe David was simply confessing he was the "dog" his family had always told him he was. It fits the context of David's confession perfectly. 

 

David is not saying ALL MEN are born sinners. You have to read that into this scripture. It says no such thing. 

 

Does JOB 14:4 prove men are born sinners?

 

JOB 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

 

This is JOB describing a newborn baby. What does a newborn look like? He is covered in his MOTHER'S blood. This shows that we become sinners by influence, by being born into a sinful world. And this is what the Bible really teaches, that men become sinners when they follow in the tradition of their fathers. Sin is learned. 

 

1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

 

Our vain or sinful conversation (lifestyle) was received "by tradition" from our fathers. We simply follow in their footsteps and copy them. We learn to sin from our fathers. 

 

Jhn 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

 

Jesus said these evil men did the things "which they have seen" with their fathers. We learn to sin from our fathers. 

 

So, when anyone is born into a sinful world they are contaminated by it, just as a baby is covered in his mother's blood. The baby himself is not filthy, it is his mother's blood that makes him filthy. This is what JOB is saying. 

 

Psa 58:3 has been addressed. This is a ridiculous verse to argue Original Sin from as it is OBvious hyperbole. First, it is not addressed to all men, but the wicked only. The same Psalm speaks of "the righteous" in verses 10 and 11.

 

In addition, no baby was ever born with the ability to speak as soon as they exited the womb, much less lie, which takes "intent"

 

But let me ask you a question, what language do all babies speak? They speak the language of their PARENTS. Babies learn to speak from hearing and imitating their parents, and this is how they learn to lie as well. 

 

Secondly, Psalm 58, says the wicked persons are poisonous like an adder and deaf. Are all babies born poisonous and deaf?

 

Third, this Psalm says the wicked have huge teeth like young lions. Are babies born with a mouthful of hugh sharp teeth like lions? Absurd. 

 

I could go on, but it is beyond foolish to use this Psalm to form doctrine about how man is born into this world. 

 

Does John 3:6 say men are born sinners? Let's see.

 

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

I don't see a single word in this verse saying all men are born sinners. You have to read that into this verse, "cause it ain't  there. 

 

Does Eph 2:3 say we are born sinners?

 

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disOBedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
 
Does this passage say we were born sinners? NOPE, it simply says we were dead in trespasses and sins wherein in time past we "walked". 
 
Have you ever seen a newborn baby that can walk? I have eight children and none of them could walk until they were at least a year old or thereabouts. And walking is something you learn. 
 
So, none of these scriptures prove Original Sin. In fact, if people put just a little thought into these scriptures they would see that sin is a learned behavior that we learn from our parents and those around us. And this is exactly what the scriptures show to the person who is OBservant. 
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Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

BY NATURE

  1. nature

    1. the nature of things, the force, laws, order of nature

      1. as opposed to what is monstrous, abnormal, perverse

      2. as opposed what has been produced by the art of man: the natural branches, i.e. branches by the operation of nature

    2. birth, physical origin

    3. a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature

    4. the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others, distinctive native peculiarities, natural characteristics: the natural strength, ferocity, and intractability of beasts

OBviously, the definition that best fits "nature" in Ephesians 2:3 is "birth, physical origin."

Children sin because it is in their nature to do so.  Man sins because it is in his nature to do so.

Paul struggled often with the sin nature in his own body.  Raed Romans 7.

Sorry, Winman, your "strawman" argument just does not hold up under the weight of God's Holy Word.

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If I believe that man is born with a sin-nature, that means I blame God for sin? 

 

Why do men have a sin nature? Who caused this change?  

 

No, I blame Adam...always have and always will. You're right about one thing though, the scriptures don't teach anywhere that God cursed us to be sinners...but Adam did.

 

Adam sinned, and introduced the penalty for sin into the world, which is death. But Adam had no power to determine men after him would be born sinners. 

 

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disOBedience many were made sinners, so by the OBedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

I also believe that through Adam's disOBedience men were made sinners, but not as you understand it. I understand Adam to be the "legal precedent' for all persons who sinned after him. They were imputed or judged as "sinners" and the sentence of "death' was passed on them. Likewise, Jesus was the "legal precedent" for those who believe on God to save them, just as Jesus believed the Father to raise him from the dead. They are judged or imputed "righteous" and given the free gift of eternal life. 

 

A legal precedent is a "first" in law. It is normally the first person to commit a particular crime. In future cases, when persons commit the same crime, the court will use that first case as a precedent or standard. So, if the first person who committed a certain crime was given a sentence of five years in prison, this becomes the precedent or standard for those who commit the same crime in the future. That ensures equal treatment and fairness under the law. 

 

And this is what Adam and Jesus were, the "first". Adam was the "first" to sin. He was judged a "sinner' and sentenced to death. Likewise those who sinned after Adam were judged or made "sinners", and also sentenced to death. Jesus was the "first" to trust God to save him. He was judged "righteous" and given eternal life. Those who believe as Jesus did are judged or made "righteous", and are also given eternal life. 

 

This is what Paul is telling us in Romans 5. 
 

No...death is never presented in scripture as being "good and a blessing toward man".  I understand what you're implying with the statement you made, but the Bible is clear...

 

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

You are wrong, death is presented as good in the scriptures. 

 

Ecc 7:1 A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

 

Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better.

 

Now, it surely will not be better for the lost when they die, but all I was saying is that death is good in that it is man's greatest incentive to repent and turn to God. If men lived forever in sin the world would become a horrible place as in the days of Noah. But when men know they are to die, many turn to God. 

 

As my father used to say, There are no atheists in foxholes. 

 

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Searching Scripture and reading four pages of posts here and I still see original sin and being born with a sin nature as being clearly taught in Scripture.

 

OK, so what? 

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Shoots a hole in their misrepresentation of scripture doesn't it. Thanks Dave.

 

Baloney, there is more scripture that implies a sin nature is received from a woman than man. 

 

JOB 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

 

JOB 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

 

These scriptures kind of shoot a hole in your superstitious view that we inherit a sin nature from our father. If anything, scripture implies we inherit a sin nature from our mother. 

 

Nice try though. 

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Scripture indicates your theory is incorrect and this thread also proves your theory incorrect. That's all.

 

Wow, what a compelling argument. You must have been on the debate team in school.  :icon_rolleyes:

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I'm not attempting to argue. The debate has already been undertaken here and your position has been scripturally shown to be in error. Even so, I also consulted Scripture myself (being a good Berean) and after giving attention to your position I found it lacking; which others have already posted regarding.

 

Rest assured, had I found your theory to be in accord with Scripture, I would have posted so.

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Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

BY NATURE

  1. nature

    1. the nature of things, the force, laws, order of nature

      1. as opposed to what is monstrous, abnormal, perverse

      2. as opposed what has been produced by the art of man: the natural branches, i.e. branches by the operation of nature

    2. birth, physical origin

    3. a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature

    4. the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others, distinctive native peculiarities, natural characteristics: the natural strength, ferocity, and intractability of beasts

OBviously, the definition that best fits "nature" in Ephesians 2:3 is "birth, physical origin."

Children sin because it is in their nature to do so.  Man sins because it is in his nature to do so.

Paul struggled often with the sin nature in his own body.  Raed Romans 7.

Sorry, Winman, your "strawman" argument just does not hold up under the weight of God's Holy Word.

Paul also said the Gentiles "by nature" do the things contained in the law, which is good. 

 

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

 

This actually shows what the word "nature" means, it means a learned behavior. Men learn to live in a civilized culture. Laws are developed to protect the society. Men by nature know what is good and evil and what is most beneficial for the society and develop laws men live by. Even in the darkest jungles, men who have never known other men have rules of conduct they live by. This is man's "nature'

 

Likewise, sin is learned behavior too, men imitate each other and do sinful deeds like becoming drunkards or thieves, and this becomes their "nature". 

 

But Paul shows by nature that man does good, not evil only. So your proof text is not a proof of Original Sin whatsoever. 

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I'm not attempting to argue. The debate has already been undertaken here and your position has been scripturally shown to be in error. Even so, I also consulted Scripture myself (being a good Berean) and after giving attention to your position I found it lacking; which others have already posted regarding.

 

Rest assured, had I found your theory to be in accord with Scripture, I would have posted so.

 

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. But I would bet others would disagree with you. 

 

In my opinion, you are not open to new views, you have already made up your mind what you believe. 

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I was wondering if you believed this...and if so, would you bring it up. 

 

In all due respect, I have nothing further to say.

 

Why do you think Jesus was led of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted? What was the point of this?

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